Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

[logicalgirl]

I remember hearing that chloroform would only be effective for about 15 minutes. This is why I always thought a prescription drug like xanax (Zanny the Nanny) was used. Before I had kids, I'll admit I experimented with xanax a couple of times. And half a "bar" as they call it was more than enough to knock me out. When I woke up feeling sick and being told I did things I couldn't remember doing, that's when I never experimented again. There's nothing I hate more than having no recollection of what has happened to me, which is mainly why I don't drink. It's a scary thought.

As an adult, taking half a pill, being knocked out for the night..I can imagine just a quarter of a bar or less..crushed up in her applesauce or something..would have devastating effects on a toddler. I could see her maybe using a tiny tiny amount of a low-dosage to get little Caylee to sleep, and one day using just too much. That's a very dangerous, fine line, I think. I'm not a doctor, just going off what little experience I've had and have seen. It would explain her being able to sleep through parties, too. Because being knocked out on xanax is simply that - being knocked out.

Here's what different dosages of xanax looks like:

The bottom two are what are commonly referred to as bars. They have lines on them and can sometimes be divided into 3 or 4 parts. That's what I was talking about with my experience. A quarter of that could be deadly to a child Caylee's size, IMO. But if Casey was administering her xanax on a regular basis, who knows if the poor child could have developed a tolerance.

I always thought she could have been using this to "babysit" Caylee, thinking how clever she was to call it Zanny the Nanny. In fact, I don't think the name Zenaida was used until Caylee died and Casey had to come up with a "formal" name for this babysitter. I think she always said "Zanny the Nanny".

What would be shocking to me, but would make perfect sense, is if any of her close friends (Maybe AD?) have been granted immunity and will end up testifying to say that they KNEW about Zanny the Nanny and that it was in fact xanax, and that perhaps they supplied her with it.

This is just one of many angles you could look at this, of course. JMO.

Yes, I too heard that Steph, but haven't had the actual "proof' of it, which is why I wanted it clarified.

My "whole" experience with drugs was when a doctor gave me a prescription for valium and only 5mg at that, because I wasn't sleeping. I took half of one, and dropped asleep on the bed fully clothed, stayed in the same position all night and that was it for me. And that was 35 years ago.

So I appreciate the information you've given re xanex - I know nothing at all about it. And it makes sense to me.

Which doesn't explain the chloroform in the trunk at all. More speed bumps. Sigh.

 

[Eidetic]

AZ got me thinking. :waitasec:

Where would you keep something you drug your little kid that you drag along here, there and everywhere when you can't get her to fall asleep fast enough so you can ______?

I wouldn't want something like that in my purse, in with my clothes or in my baby's diaper bag because I wouldn't look like mother of the year. I think I would want it some place semi comfortable and familiar to me, well concealed. Like a second, mobile home... possibly in a cleaning fluid bottle or something equally inconspicuous in the trunk of my busy body car. Then I could just excuse myself and explain that I forgot ______ and had to run down to the car when it got close to ni-ni time (whenever that was that mommy decided) for Cays.

Wouldn't be terribly unheard of for the packaging to leak or be spilt, especially since; 1) Her nerves almost certainly could have been frazzled at the time of collecting it to administer it to Caylee. 2) We aren't sure what she may have allegedly used to make chloroform. 3) What would she would have kept her little experiment in?

 

[RR0004]

I sure would like to know the content of those phone calls to Amy, Jesse, Cindy and George on the afternoon of the 16th. Cindy didn't answer her phone for some reason, but were there any vm's left? What would be great is if we had the testimony or vm of at least one person that proves she was looking for a sitter. Then we would have a little clearer timeline of when Caylee died.

I'm not so sure she was looking for a sitter. I think there was a major fight the night of the 15th and no one wanted to talk to her the next day (tough love, perhaps?). I think that fact alone must have enraged Casey and set her plan (whatever form it took) in motion. Yes, oh yes, Casey is one spiteful b$tch.
PS- I'm not 100% convinced Casey intended on killing Caylee...but rather as a result of her own willful negligence her daughter died.

http://www.edgarsnyder.com/legal-dictionary/w.html

Willful Negligence. Intentional performance of an unreasonable act in disregard of a known risk, making it highly probable that harm will be caused. Willful negligence usually involves a conscious indifference to the consequences. There is no clear distinction between willful negligence and gross negligence.

 

[RR0004]

Absolutely I agree - I'm trying to make certain in my mind that Casey intended this to be a fatal dose. Which is why I asked for ideas on how long a dose of chloroform would "typically" last. I don't think this was in any shape or form an accident, but just going through the details in my mind to get rid of the speed bumps.

There's much discussion on that fact somewhere here on the threads. IIRC....a dose is not long lasting. I got the impression that it has to be continuously administered. I do wonder if Casey had soaked a towel with it and left it with Caylee in the trunk.

 

[logicalgirl]

Nope, seems there's a lot of speed bumps. I think I've always wanted to go the xanax route (or any sort of drug overdose, as bad as that sounds) because I'd rather think that Caylee died painlessly than suffering a suffocation or a heat death or anything else that would have caused her last moments to be terrifying or painful.

However, I don't think it's too far off to think that Casey could have been using a combination of different drugs with Caylee. Chloroform to silence her, making the administering of other drugs easier, and xanax to keep her knocked out for a longer period of time..maybe? I don't know. I think anyone cruel enough to use anything other than a long day of play/exercise/entertainment to get their child to sleep could definitely be capable of using more than one atrocious method to "get the job done".

I just realized we are sounding like the kind of jurors we don't want on the jury because we find it difficult to think someone could be this cruel and we don't want to think of sweet Caylee suffering so terribly. Eek!

 

[RR0004]

I just realized we are sounding like the kind of jurors we don't want on the jury because we find it difficult to think someone could be this cruel and we don't want to think of sweet Caylee suffering so terribly. Eek!

I didn't think that I ever could sit on a murder case, especially a DP case. I would have hated to have the fate of anyone's life in my hands...just thought it would be way too much responsibility for me to bear. But, now I truly believe I could. If the facts are presented to me that clearly indicate that Caylee died as a result of negligence on her mother's part (and any of these theories do support that), I would have no problem convicting.

 

[logicalgirl]

I didn't think that I ever could sit on a murder case, especially a DP case. I would have hated to have the fate of anyone's life in my hands...just thought it would be way too much responsibility for me to bear. But, now I truly believe I could. If the facts are presented to me that clearly indicate that Caylee died as a result of negligence on her mother's part (and any of these theories do support that), I would have no problem convicting.

Interesting to hear you say that RR0004, because you touched my heart with that.
As I've said before, I'm Canadian, and we don't have the death penalty. Even our life sentences are 20 - 25 years with time off for good behavior - a fact that just enrages me.
So I have really had to search my heart and my head to decide if I could sit through a death penalty as a jury member, and vote death if the evidence was there as I think it will be in this case. And yes, I'm surprised at myself, but yes, I could also vote for the death penalty.

Sorry about that folks - yes, I know big deal saying that and what does it mean if I will never have the opportunity to put mouth where keyboard is. Just my :twocents:

 

[Harmony 2]

I remember hearing that chloroform would only be effective for about 15 minutes. This is why I always thought a prescription drug like xanax (Zanny the Nanny) was used. Before I had kids, I'll admit I experimented with xanax a couple of times. And half a "bar" as they call it was more than enough to knock me out. When I woke up feeling sick and being told I did things I couldn't remember doing, that's when I never experimented again. There's nothing I hate more than having no recollection of what has happened to me, which is mainly why I don't drink. It's a scary thought.

As an adult, taking half a pill, being knocked out for the night..I can imagine just a quarter of a bar or less..crushed up in her applesauce or something..would have devastating effects on a toddler. I could see her maybe using a tiny tiny amount of a low-dosage to get little Caylee to sleep, and one day using just too much. That's a very dangerous, fine line, I think. I'm not a doctor, just going off what little experience I've had and have seen. It would explain her being able to sleep through parties, too. Because being knocked out on xanax is simply that - being knocked out.

Here's what different dosages of xanax looks like:

The bottom two are what are commonly referred to as bars. They have lines on them and can sometimes be divided into 3 or 4 parts. That's what I was talking about with my experience. A quarter of that could be deadly to a child Caylee's size, IMO. But if Casey was administering her xanax on a regular basis, who knows if the poor child could have developed a tolerance.

I always thought she could have been using this to "babysit" Caylee, thinking how clever she was to call it Zanny the Nanny. In fact, I don't think the name Zenaida was used until Caylee died and Casey had to come up with a "formal" name for this babysitter. I think she always said "Zanny the Nanny".

What would be shocking to me, but would make perfect sense, is if any of her close friends (Maybe AD?) have been granted immunity and will end up testifying to say that they KNEW about Zanny the Nanny and that it was in fact xanax, and that perhaps they supplied her with it.

This is just one of many angles you could look at this, of course. JMO.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

page 8 Nathan Lezniewicz

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5687695/Casey-Anthony-Nathan-Lezniewicz-transcript

 

[AZlawyer]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

page 8 Nathan Lezniewicz

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5687695/Casey-Anthony-Nathan-Lezniewicz-transcript

Keep in mind that the detectives can and do pretend to know more than they really know in order to get witnesses to spill the beans. IMO, Yuri does not know anything of the sort.

 

[Harmony 2]

Keep in mind that the detectives can and do pretend to know more than they really know in order to get witnesses to spill the beans. IMO, Yuri does not know anything of the sort.

That is true about detectives doing that.... but then, I don't know what Yuri knows...

 

[Starfish]

How about.....chloroform to knock her out so she didn't put up a fight, duct tape to stop her from breathing. Once she was dead, she planned this totally wacked out scenario (the norm for her) that she & Caylee were kidnapped. This would explain leaving the car unlocked with purse & other things in plain sight. And IIRC, she was communicating with yet another guy that was in Cali (?) in the service (Marines?) & hinting about coming for a visit & had something to tell him. Perhaps she planned on taking off to Cali, but, being the lazy thang she is, drug her feet too long, her parents got the tow notice & Amy took CA to TL's apartment blowing the whole plan. Of course TL would be a lose end as he picked her up where she left the car.....arggggggg!!!!!

Oh well, the theory started out good I thought......I had to throw that car abandon in there somewhere because that has always bothered me. I have to think she either wanted to make it look suspicious like she met with foul play or she was hoping it would get stolen so she could put the car with its death smell in someone else's hands. Maybe claim the car was stolen with Caylee in it.

As always Bond & everyone else on this fab board have some EXCELLENT ideas & theories.

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

We have gotten to a point in this case where legalities are the main focus/subject. The base information that I have regarding this case helps to keep my head above water but just barely. Right now my brain seems to hurt less if I see things from the side of the defense. Don't know why exactly but...maybe I have to clear any of that doubt out. It's like the defense has been forming this sub-conscious story in your mind, it's back there scratching and spinning around, wanting to come out as a complete thought.

Here is some of it.


Casey was abused at home. Her mother denied her pregnancy till she was seven months along. Her mother did not want her to have the baby, calling the baby a mistake. Casey's mother used the baby against her, choked her, and so Casey killed Caylee.

All of the above but Caylee died because of an accident and Casey is more afraid of Cindy than of the law. All of the above but it was someone else who killed Caylee(insert person Casey knew/knows or anyone else here).

The deepest I go with a pure "it was an accident" theory is this: it would just be interesting to hear that admitted by Casey and to hear exactly how the accident happened and why Casey had not come forward about that previously.

That's all I have right now.

This is not what I really believe or think. I just have to work this out to a full thought and then I can compare it to all "we"(I included myself humbly) have sleuthed but I can't until I know what I am looking at. It seems people are saying this and I feel it: I want to know what the defense IS.

...JS...

 

[logicalgirl]

Chiquita71 - I had one eye on what I'm supposed to be doing and one eye was reading your post and I'm sure I said WTH out loud!

Whew, then I reread and realized you were trying to present the defense side of things. LOL Glad I saw that before I answered your post with a :furious: instead of a :dance:

 

[Anais]

Interesting to hear you say that RR0004, because you touched my heart with that.
As I've said before, I'm Canadian, and we don't have the death penalty. Even our life sentences are 20 - 25 years with time off for good behavior - a fact that just enrages me.
So I have really had to search my heart and my head to decide if I could sit through a death penalty as a jury member, and vote death if the evidence was there as I think it will be in this case. And yes, I'm surprised at myself, but yes, I could also vote for the death penalty.

Sorry about that folks - yes, I know big deal saying that and what does it mean if I will never have the opportunity to put mouth where keyboard is. Just my :twocents:

FWIW logicalgirl I do believe you 100% when you say you could vote for a DP conviction. It is one of the hardest cases that any juror can sit on. I know from my own sisters experience as a juror on a particularly heinious homicide in Chicago a few years back. It took that jury time, but itlimately they were given the DP and both defendants were quite young! (20 & 22)

I too would be enraged with such lax prison sentences for murder. I am flabberghasted at the thought of a murderer walking free after 20-25 years! Although I do recall the Karla H. story...how awful what she got away with!

I have struggled with various theories on exactly how Caylee died. A huge part of me wanted to believe that it was indeed an accident. But when the duct tape stuff came out-that blew any theory of an accident right out the window for me forever! I do believe that she drugged Caylee, just not sure with what. IMO Casey used the duct tape to keep her quiet so that if she awoke nobody would here her cries and screams for help! It makes me physically ill to even ponder, and it breaks my heart how poor sweet Caylee must have suffered.

 

[Chiquita71]

Chiquita71 - I had one eye on what I'm supposed to be doing and one eye was reading your post and I'm sure I said WTH out loud!

Whew, then I reread and realized you were trying to present the defense side of things. LOL Glad I saw that before I answered your post with a :furious: instead of a :dance:

Quote Respect logicalgirl

Ha. Ha. That's funny. Did it get your dander up? LOL. :angel: (That was never my intent!) I am just at a place where it is easier to think about what the defense wants me to think, because it makes it clear to me why I don't believe it.

And, like I said I want so badly to know what the defense is going to be!? JB has said his client is innocent, that he has "compelling evidence" to prove it. Yet, the defense has also eluded to SODDI. Also, an accident...many things, imho.

I am starting to understand that we are in a stage of "creating reality", I read what a WS had posted today re: time going by and history "rewriting" itself. You have two sides here. Each is "selling" its version of an event, a reality.

But only the defense, imo has actively sold a story here. I can appreciate that is in part because they are defending someone who is accused of something. Common sense tells me that if there was one cohesive story that was being sold to me: I would be able to see it. I just feel confused. I wonder if the jury will get a cohesive story from the defense or will they be just as confused by the defense?

A WS theory that defending Casey is impossible at this point and they are just going to try and save her life, is one of the theories running in my head.

I am happy the new judge has moved things along but I will be truly happy when a jury of Casey's peers hears this case.

:twocents:

 

[Coonbottom Gal]

I have had the same theory since the beginning of this circus- She dosed her on Xanax-LOTS-once she was "out" on that, Casey duct taped her and then smothered her face in a rag soaked with chloroform, put her in the trunk...and drove around with her going to some place of insanity I could never imagine, pretending she did not just kill her own baby until she had to get her out because of the smell.

Thats it in the most simple and honest, horrific terms I can think of. I look at Casey Anthonys eyes and see the eyes of someone totally insane, and capable of doing something too awful to imagine.. only the sick sad truth is these people exist. they are in line next to you and me at the grocery store.yuck.

 

[Reagan]

If KC used anything it would've been benadryl or something OTC. She's lazy and stupid. I never bought the xanax theory.
Even if you hang out with some pretty shady people, it's still pretty hard to obtain. I don't see an entire xanax bar overdosing an almost 3 year old child either. Making them sick and knocking them out for a day yes, but I don't think death.

My dogs (not that they are comparable to children, though I think of them as my own) have swallowed their share of prescription pills and other toxins, and were fine the next day without treatment. They are 7lb and 15lb dogs, so...just thought I would throw that out there.

Now if I were to give my dogs xanax, put them in a trunk in FL with duct tape over their mouth, then surely they would die, but I just don't see xanax playing a part despite the zanny nanny aspect.

I don't know what role chloroform played and can't wait to see how the State presents their case.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Quote Respect logicalgirl

Ha. Ha. That's funny. Did it get your dander up? LOL. :angel: (That was never my intent!) I am just at a place where it is easier to think about what the defense wants me to think, because it makes it clear to me why I don't believe it.

And, like I said I want so badly to know what the defense is going to be!? JB has said his client is innocent, that he has "compelling evidence" to prove it. Yet, the defense has also eluded to SODDI. Also, an accident...many things, imho.

I am starting to understand that we are in a stage of "creating reality", I read what a WS had posted today re: time going by and history "rewriting" itself. You have two sides here. Each is "selling" its version of an event, a reality.

But only the defense, imo has actively sold a story here. I can appreciate that is in part because they are defending someone who is accused of something. Common sense tells me that if there was one cohesive story that was being sold to me: I would be able to see it. I just feel confused. I wonder if the jury will get a cohesive story from the defense or will they be just as confused by the defense?

A WS theory that defending Casey is impossible at this point and they are just going to try and save her life, is one of the theories running in my head.

I am happy the new judge has moved things along but I will be truly happy when a jury of Casey's peers hears this case.

:twocents:

They announced months ago that they had evidence that Caylee was placed on Suburban drive while Casey was incarcerated. Judge Strickland required them to produce that evidence by February. We are still waiting... I was hoping Judge Perry would chase them up on it...

 

[Pensfan]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

page 8 Nathan Lezniewicz

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5687695/Casey-Anthony-Nathan-Lezniewicz-transcript

My money is on Xanax as Caylee's babysitter also. KC may have used it with/without Chloroform to sedate Caylee before killing her with duct tape over her mouth and nose.

Xanax is not a drug that is fatal in small doses. The LD50 (median lethal dose) is 331 mg/kg in laboratory rats. If Caylee weighed 12.7 kg (28 lbs), she would have needed to orally ingest 4,204 mg of xanax to cause cardiopulmonary collapse. Even if she was given 1 mg tablets, she would have to have consumed 4,200 tablets for a lethal dose. She could have become unconscious, aspirated her own vomitus, and died with a lower dose, but it would have been almost impossible to have orally killed her with Xanax. This is why documentation/crime scene photos r/t the position of the duct tape on the skull is so important in this case.
Reference: PDR Edition 55 - 2001, pp.2650-2654

 

[Aedrys]

Nope, seems there's a lot of speed bumps. I think I've always wanted to go the xanax route (or any sort of drug overdose, as bad as that sounds) because I'd rather think that Caylee died painlessly than suffering a suffocation or a heat death or anything else that would have caused her last moments to be terrifying or painful.

However, I don't think it's too far off to think that Casey could have been using a combination of different drugs with Caylee. Chloroform to silence her, making the administering of other drugs easier, and xanax to keep her knocked out for a longer period of time..maybe? I don't know. I think anyone cruel enough to use anything other than a long day of play/exercise/entertainment to get their child to sleep could definitely be capable of using more than one atrocious method to "get the job done".

ITA and Wow. I hadn't thought of the chloroform being used to make it easier to dose Caylee with something like Xanax - what if she gave Caylee a shot of Chloroform or soaked part of her blanket with chloroform and held it over her face, and then when Caylee got groggy and couldn't fidget or fight back, she forced xanax pills down her throat, then duct taped her mouth so Caylee couldn't spit the pills back up? Only in anger, she put on too many strips of duct tape, so not only could Caylee not spit the pills back up, she couldn't breathe and/or possibly threw up and died choking on her own vomit.

The above scenario is horrible, and I don't like to think that happened, but I think it's interesting the thought of chloroform being used as a way to make it easier to dose Caylee with a stronger drug like Xanax or a strong sedative to keep her asleep. It just makes more sense than her using chloroform to knock her out or kill her.