Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #7

[Pensfan]

ITA and Wow. I hadn't thought of the chloroform being used to make it easier to dose Caylee with something like Xanax - what if she gave Caylee a shot of Chloroform or soaked part of her blanket with chloroform and held it over her face, and then when Caylee got groggy and couldn't fidget or fight back, she forced xanax pills down her throat, then duct taped her mouth so Caylee couldn't spit the pills back up? Only in anger, she put on too many strips of duct tape, so not only could Caylee not spit the pills back up, she couldn't breathe and/or possibly threw up and died choking on her own vomit.

The above scenario is horrible, and I don't like to think that happened, but I think it's interesting the thought of chloroform being used as a way to make it easier to dose Caylee with a stronger drug like Xanax or a strong sedative to keep her asleep. It just makes more sense than her using chloroform to knock her out or kill her.

KC wouldn't have needed to shove pills down Caylee's throat or make a solution with pills. KC could have easily killed Caylee with an injection(s) of homemade Chloroform if her homemade concoction was concentrated. She could have also killed her by taping a Chloroform soaked rag over her face.

According to sources listed below, a lethal dose of Chloroform is 50 mg/kg of body weight if injected. An approx. dose of 640 mg would have killed a 12.8 kg (two-year old at 28 lbs). There is no way to determine the concentration (mg/ml) of KC’s homemade Chloroform therefore, there is no way to determine how many ml of homemade Chloroform KC would have needed to have injected into Caylee. If KC found an internet recipe which listed the concentration of the Chloroform (mg/ml) , she might have been able to calculate the lethal dose based on Caylee's weight. (Anyone with a normal IQ could calculate the fatal dosage or find another internet site to teach them how to understand milligrams per milliliter and then calculate how many milliliters of this concentration would be fatal if injected to someone Caylee's weight.)

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/chlorofo.html
http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemistry/thirdPhase/chloroform.htm
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1202487056386

It doesn't make sense that KC would have used Chloroform to put Caylee to sleep so she could duct tape her nose/mouth and then suffocate her, but we aren't sadistic sociopaths. Lord have mercy!

 

[beach]

KC wouldn't have needed to shove pills down Caylee's throat or make a solution with pills. KC could have easily killed Caylee with an injection(s) of homemade Chloroform if her homemade concoction was concentrated. She could have also killed her by taping a Chloroform soaked rag over her face.

According to sources listed below, a lethal dose of Chloroform is 50 mg/kg of body weight if injected. An approx. dose of 640 mg would have killed a 12.8 kg (two-year old at 28 lbs). There is no way to determine the concentration (mg/ml) of KC’s homemade Chloroform therefore, there is no way to determine how many ml of homemade Chloroform KC would have needed to have injected into Caylee. If KC found an internet recipe which listed the concentration of the Chloroform (mg/ml) , she might have been able to calculate the lethal dose based on Caylee's weight. (Anyone with a normal IQ could calculate the fatal dosage or find another internet site to teach them how to understand milligrams per milliliter and then calculate how many milliliters of this concentration would be fatal if injected to someone Caylee's weight.)

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/chlorofo.html
http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemistry/thirdPhase/chloroform.htm
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1202487056386

It doesn't make sense that KC would have used Chloroform to put Caylee to sleep so she could duct tape her nose/mouth and then suffocate her, but we aren't sadistic sociopaths. Lord have mercy!

BBM

Great post and sleuthing! Thank you, Pensfan!

in re. the last sentence I bolded - actually I hope you are correct in that Caylee was given a lethal dose of chloroform. However, I can see KC applying the duct tape directly afterwards JUST IN CASE things didn't go as planned. The duct tape would certainly do the trick. Sort of a back-up - God forbid something went awry and Caylee woke up and started screaming.

As I stated in the Duct Tape thread, for my own sanity, I have to believe that Caylee was unconcious and was not looking into her mother's eyes as the duct tape was being applied. On a personal level, I am just not ready to deal with that thought.

 

[Anais]

KC wouldn't have needed to shove pills down Caylee's throat or make a solution with pills. KC could have easily killed Caylee with an injection(s) of homemade Chloroform if her homemade concoction was concentrated. She could have also killed her by taping a Chloroform soaked rag over her face.

According to sources listed below, a lethal dose of Chloroform is 50 mg/kg of body weight if injected. An approx. dose of 640 mg would have killed a 12.8 kg (two-year old at 28 lbs). There is no way to determine the concentration (mg/ml) of KC’s homemade Chloroform therefore, there is no way to determine how many ml of homemade Chloroform KC would have needed to have injected into Caylee. If KC found an internet recipe which listed the concentration of the Chloroform (mg/ml) , she might have been able to calculate the lethal dose based on Caylee's weight. (Anyone with a normal IQ could calculate the fatal dosage or find another internet site to teach them how to understand milligrams per milliliter and then calculate how many milliliters of this concentration would be fatal if injected to someone Caylee's weight.)

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/chlorofo.html
http://www.hull.ac.uk/chemistry/thirdPhase/chloroform.htm
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1202487056386

It doesn't make sense that KC would have used Chloroform to put Caylee to sleep so she could duct tape her nose/mouth and then suffocate her, but we aren't sadistic sociopaths. Lord have mercy!

Pensfan incredible and excellent sleuthing. (Post above) Thanks so much. It is so utterly disheartening to know such evil exists in the world we live in today. To realize that any mother could harm her child, so helpless and innocent. For my own sanity & peace of mind I hope and pray to God that you're spot on and thatCasey in fact injected Caylee who went to sleep, not having to realize what her very own mother was going to do or did to her. I get nauseated with just the thoughts........In any case I recall at the very beginning wanting desperately to believe that there was some accident. Like to put Caylee to sleep for lack of a sitter, ya know. But with all of the knowledge we now have it has dispelled any further thoughts of any type of accidental death. At least for me.

 

[Anais]

BBM

Great post and sleuthing! Thank you, Pensfan!

in re. the last sentence I bolded - actually I hope you are correct in that Caylee was given a lethal dose of chloroform. However, I can see KC applying the duct tape directly afterwards JUST IN CASE things didn't go as planned. The duct tape would certainly do the trick. Sort of a back-up - God forbid something went awry and Caylee woke up and started screaming.

As I stated in the Duct Tape thread, for my own sanity, I have to believe that Caylee was unconcious and was not looking into her mother's eyes as the duct tape was being applied. On a personal level, I am just not ready to deal with that thought.

BBM


I am with you on this one. As evil as I believe Casey to be I find it incredibly difficult if not impossible to digest that she could put duct tape over her beautiful daughter Caylee's mouth & face while wide awake. I am not saying that it's out of the question. It's something that I simply cannot grasp personally either. I just hope and pray that she did drug her, and Caylee was at the very least sleeping. I hope and pray she was never awake, alone and terrified in the back of her mother's trunk. :no:

I guess that for me personally what is so difficult is that while we have so many facts & knowledge, there is yet so much that we do not know. We may never know. It kills me to know what Caylee must have lived through. I am certain she was terrified.

 

[okiedokietoo]

Ok, I never thought I would post a personal type post on here but here it is -
I grew up with a Sociopath/Psychopath parent. Whatever you read about these people it's not just words or a worse case scenario definition nor possible traits, it is literal. When you read that they have no conscience, no feelings of guilt or remorse and that they can conceal all that from other people - it is literal and a fact.
I won't go into graphic detail of the things I have seen, experienced but will say that living through that - As hard as it is to grasp that KC could flat out kill Caylee and not think twice about it, if she truly is a Sociopath/Psychopath, she could do this and not think twice about it, never feel guilty, never look back at what she had done with regret. So to me it is a cold-water-in-the-face reality that KC could have killed Caylee without drugging her first, without worrying if she was going to suffer, without being concerned if Caylee was awake and looking into her eyes. These people are on a different wave length than the rest of us. There is no way to understand what is going on inside their heads.

These people don't get better. If KC is one of these personalities, even if she is acquitted, she will still be a Sociopath/Psychopath.

 

[TrialAddict]

I am still thinking "SYBIL" when it comes to Casey.

 

[okiedokietoo]

That's an insult to "Sybil"!

 

[beach]

Ok, I never thought I would post a personal type post on here but here it is -
I grew up with a Sociopath/Psychopath parent. Whatever you read about these people it's not just words or a worse case scenario definition nor possible traits, it is literal. When you read that they have no conscience, no feelings of guilt or remorse and that they can conceal all that from other people - it is literal and a fact.
I won't go into graphic detail of the things I have seen, experienced but will say that living through that - As hard as it is to grasp that KC could flat out kill Caylee and not think twice about it, if she truly is a Sociopath/Psychopath, she could do this and not think twice about it, never feel guilty, never look back at what she had done with regret. So to me it is a cold-water-in-the-face reality that KC could have killed Caylee without drugging her first, without worrying if she was going to suffer, without being concerned if Caylee was awake and looking into her eyes. These people are on a different wave length than the rest of us. There is no way to understand what is going on inside their heads.

These people don't get better. If KC is one of these personalities, even if she is acquitted, she will still be a Sociopath/Psychopath.

Okie, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for this post.

I'll be the first to admit that it is ME - my personal emotions - that cause me to have trouble digesting the possibility that Caylee may have known what was happening. Your post made me realize that I need to get past that in order to consider other possibilites, if we are ever going to get as close as possible to uncovering the truth. And, the truth is my ultimate goal.


Considering your experiences, I'd like to ask your opinion on something - First, let me qualify my question by saying I concur KC has no feelings of guilt, remorse or conscience.

What is your opinion on why she has such visceral reactions to specific things brought up in court...e.g., Jeff Ashton's vivid description of the taping of Caylee ("MAKE HIM STOP!!!"), the way she clenches her jaw and swallows hard everytime someone brings up the DP (this has been especially evident most recently since Judge Perry has taken over), or maybe you could even offer some insight as to why she doesn't want to attend any more hearings?

Thanks in advance. And, please if you don't want to respond any further, just pass this on by and know that I completely understand. I am just curious as to what might cause these reactions from a sociopath/psychopath.

 

[Aedrys]

Okie, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for this post.

I'll be the first to admit that it is ME - my personal emotions - that cause me to have trouble digesting the possibility that Caylee may have known what was happening. Your post made me realize that I need to get past that in order to consider other possibilites, if we are ever going to get as close as possible to uncovering the truth. And, the truth is my ultimate goal.


Considering your experiences, I'd like to ask your opinion on something - First, let me qualify my question by saying I concur KC has no feelings of guilt, remorse or conscience.

What is your opinion on why she has such visceral reactions to specific things brought up in court...e.g., Jeff Ashton's vivid description of the taping of Caylee ("MAKE HIM STOP!!!"), the way she clenches her jaw and swallows hard everytime someone brings up the DP (this has been especially evident most recently since Judge Perry has taken over), or maybe you could even offer some insight as to why she doesn't want to attend any more hearings?

Thanks in advance. And, please if you don't want to respond any further, just pass this on by and know that I completely understand. I am just curious as to what might cause these reactions from a sociopath/psychopath.

I personally would take those reactions as that she only has feelings for herself. She doesn't want to be reminded constantly that she's never leaving jail or could be put to death - bad things don't happen to her and never have before now. She doesn't want to reminded constantly of what she actually did - not because it's horrible, but because she did it and she doesn't like how bad it makes her look. Before now, the family denied and lied and no one talked about the truth, so Casey could get away from the truth. It's all about Casey, only emotions for Casey and no one else. The people she can't stand the most are the ones who won't play along with her delusions and lies and let her live in her own fantasy world like her parents and brother did.

Remember, Sociopaths don't care a thing about others, but they sure do care a hell of a LOT about themselves. I know because I used to have a roommate who was a sociopath, and it was all about self preservation no matter what the cost to others was. The sociopath can treat everyone else like sh**, but how dare anyone else treat them like sh** because that's just NOT RIGHT.

 

[okiedokietoo]

Maybe it's Embarrassment in the sense that she was caught or anger - "how can they blame that on me!" When the SA was describing at the Hearing how the State believes Caylee died, I saw more anger coming from KC than sadness.
IMO a lot of how KC "appears" in court has to do with the attention she is getting from her attorneys and the jail visits from the experts and the cameras in court. Throw in the fact that her parents will apparently do and say anything to "save" her. All of this attention is nothing but positive reinforcement to her. I truly doubt that her internal conversation with herself ever puts two and two together. Never realizing that she is getting all this attention because she is accused of killing her daughter. She just takes it in as support for her belief in her own importance - self worth.

Jaw clenching can be a sign of anger.

 

[seekingjustice**]

Maybe it's Embarrassment in the sense that she was caught or anger - "how can they blame that on me!" When the SA was describing at the Hearing how the State believes Caylee died, I saw more anger coming from KC than sadness.

bbm - okiedokietoo ITA with you about the anger. I think the shaking and fake crying is when she is trying to mimic what she thinks a person with feelings would do in that situation.

 

[joypath]

In my very humble opinion, Casey Marie Anthony is and was capable of silencing her daughter forever without the benefit of ANY type of premedication but plenty of premeditation! Caylee was an accessory, charming while a baby, now a handicap as an articulate toddler; a reminder of the freedom that Casey LOST, a reminder of the responsibilities Casey DID NOT WANT, a reminder of her perceived "failure" in her fantasy world! Casey's world revolved/revolves around C A S E Y, you, dear reader, are here only because SHE has acted in a manner that allows you entrance into her special environment and you can be a supporting player but don't you DARE be like those people in the courtroom prosecution side talking about her in her regal presence without her permission!
I cleared a fire scene with 3 deceased toddlers,the mommy managed to flee the single room fire. The babies were barely touched but even at the scene, I could declare it homicide. News crews interviewed mommy, weeping and wailing about her losses, her anguish, her pain.....YEP, you all got it...SHE lost her designer JEANS!!!!!!!!, Her irreplaceable special pocketbooks (Some hoochie mama designers!), Her AMAZING Ipod 'cause it had her Man's music on it (BLEECH!),Her Super special cosmetics & hair stuff for her "weave", and was M O A N I N G for medical help for her cough! One local "Kathie B" clone actually used the "B" word and said, "what about the babies?"....and THEN the DIVA began......WAILING

Final resolution: LWOP, babies were each "burked" before the fire!

 

[ShadowGal]

In my very humble opinion, Casey Marie Anthony is and was capable of silencing her daughter forever without the benefit of ANY type of premedication but plenty of premeditation! Caylee was an accessory, charming while a baby, now a handicap as an articulate toddler; a reminder of the freedom that Casey LOST, a reminder of the responsibilities Casey DID NOT WANT, a reminder of her perceived "failure" in her fantasy world! Casey's world revolved/revolves around C A S E Y, you, dear reader, are here only because SHE has acted in a manner that allows you entrance into her special environment and you can be a supporting player but don't you DARE be like those people in the courtroom prosecution side talking about her in her regal presence without her permission!
I cleared a fire scene with 3 deceased toddlers,the mommy managed to flee the single room fire. The babies were barely touched but even at the scene, I could declare it homicide. News crews interviewed mommy, weeping and wailing about her losses, her anguish, her pain.....YEP, you all got it...SHE lost her designer JEANS!!!!!!!!, Her irreplaceable special pocketbooks (Some hoochie mama designers!), Her AMAZING Ipod 'cause it had her Man's music on it (BLEECH!),Her Super special cosmetics & hair stuff for her "weave", and was M O A N I N G for medical help for her cough! One local "Kathie B" clone actually used the "B" word and said, "what about the babies?"....and THEN the DIVA began......WAILING

Final resolution: LWOP, babies were each "burked" before the fire!

BBM

Joy, what is 'burked"....what did she do to them before that fire?

 

[countzero]

Maybe it's Embarrassment in the sense that she was caught or anger - "how can they blame that on me!" When the SA was describing at the Hearing how the State believes Caylee died, I saw more anger coming from KC than sadness.
IMO a lot of how KC "appears" in court has to do with the attention she is getting from her attorneys and the jail visits from the experts and the cameras in court. Throw in the fact that her parents will apparently do and say anything to "save" her. All of this attention is nothing but positive reinforcement to her. I truly doubt that her internal conversation with herself ever puts two and two together. Never realizing that she is getting all this attention because she is accused of killing her daughter. She just takes it in as support for her belief in her own importance - self worth.

Jaw clenching can be a sign of anger.

bbm: Oh I agree that she exhibits signs of anger than many simply think it's something else.

inmate anthony is full of rage and anger. Anger that she can't manipulate the legal system the way she was able to manipulate others on the outside. She isn't upset at all about Caylee or CA. She is furious that her prior attempts to BS LE didn't work and that CA didn't cover for her.

Oh her wheels are spinning. I personally don't believe the bull in the letters that she claimed she received info on or from her family. It is clearly her decision to cease any/all contact with the A compound.

inmate anthony moved on with her life the minute she put those four pieces of duct tape on Caylee and added the heart sticker as if to say "see ya honey".

Imagine someone slapping their palms together, like you were getting rid of powered suger from your hands. That is exactly what inmate anthony did with the paper towels. She rid herself of the "big trouble comes in small packages" once she slid both into double trash bags.

Out of sight, out of mind is inmate anthonys motto. Oh heck, why limit it to her; it is also Cindy's now too.

Back to the topic ...... I have always held the opinion that Caylee passed in the A compound with CA and GA present within the compound. I firmly believe there was a huge fight that Sunday evening when inmate anthony finally showed up after CA and Caylee were back from visiting CAs dad.

I can also envision a scenario when Caylee was slightly injured while all three were physically going at each other. I can envision inmate anthony storming into her room with Caylee while Caylee is crying for CA, slamming the door shut.

I don't believe for a nanosecond that chloroform was used in any manner. I do believe that an OTC was used on Caylee that evening and inmate anthony then applied the duct tape to stop Caylee's whimpering or soft crying for CA. All out an rage, anger and jealousy.

Which Anthony came up with the coverup plan, I haven't decided yet. It doesn't make a difference to me because they are all guilty and all four deserve to be removed from society.

 

[beach]

BBM

Joy, what is 'burked"....what did she do to them before that fire?

I googled it because I was unsure, too. From what I could tell, it looks like they were suffocated.

 

[ShadowGal]

I googled it because I was unsure, too. From what I could tell, it looks like they were suffocated.

Oh that's horrible...I was guessing benadryl or some type of od.

 

[joypath]

BBM

Joy, what is 'burked"....what did she do to them before that fire?

ShadowGal: It's a manner of suffocation that smothers AND crushes the chest. As the victim GASPS for air but the mouth is clamped closed & nose is blocked, the chest is compressed tighter inhibiting air exchange/muscles cramp because the victim is usually SAT ON!. From back in the day of "body snatching" cadavers for early medical school studies...overseas! OH yeah, the victim usually doesn't appear damaged per se.

 

[ShadowGal]

ShadowGal: It's a manner of suffocation that smothers AND crushes the chest. As the victim GASPS for air but the mouth is clamped closed & nose is blocked, the chest is compressed tighter inhibiting air exchange/muscles cramp because the victim is usually SAT ON!. From back in the day of "body snatching" cadavers for early medical school studies...overseas! OH yeah, the victim usually doesn't appear damaged per se.

Oh this IS awful. Thank you (in a sad sort of way) for sharing.

If this happened to Caylee, would the recovered rib bones have shown breakage or is it just the soft tissue such as the lungs that is crushed....so sorry for the mental picture..

To think that beetch will probably not give a second thought to Caylee tomorrow on Mother's Day...this trial can NOT come soon enough. :furious:

 

[joypath]

Oh this IS awful. Thank you (in a sad sort of way) for sharing.

If this happened to Caylee, would the recovered rib bones have shown breakage or is it just the soft tissue such as the lungs that is crushed....so sorry for the mental picture..

To think that beetch will probably not give a second thought to Caylee tomorrow on Mother's Day...this trial can NOT come soon enough. :furious:

Totally agree that the impact of tomorrow as MOTHER's Day will affect Casey not one whit other than perhaps an increase in the taunts from the other inmates! (oh I do hope so!).

Damage on the corpse from this type of killing can be plus or minus: sometimes the ribcage is fractured, more often than not, it isn't but our good friends the erythrocytes (red blood cells) will be the tattle tales! And as mentioned before, as one dissects thru the body layers MANY secrets are revealed! Also with children, the ossification of the bones make them just a bit more flexible (oh to have the wisdom of age & the body of youth!).

 

[Dignity4Victims]

Totally agree that the impact of tomorrow as MOTHER's Day will affect Casey not one whit other than perhaps an increase in the taunts from the other inmates! (oh I do hope so!).

Damage on the corpse from this type of killing can be plus or minus: sometimes the ribcage is fractured, more often than not, it isn't but our good friends the erythrocytes (red blood cells) will be the tattle tales! And as mentioned before, as one dissects thru the body layers MANY secrets are revealed! Also with children, the ossification of the bones make them just a bit more flexible (oh to have the wisdom of age & the body of youth!).

Based on your education and experience in your field, Joy, do you fully believe the duct tape was used to suffocate Caylee?

I realize this is only your educated opinion and that you haven't examined (what was left of) her remains, but I can't reason any other logical explanation for the duct tape if it wasn't used to premeditate her murder.

Your thoughts, please?