Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Lux et Veritas]

IMO

1. we have no independent evidence that OP shouted HHH from the balcony… only OP's word… and the independent objective evidence seems to indicate that the balcony access was blocked at the time with duvet and large fan.

2. I don't believe OP shouted HHH in pure mockery or to create an alibi… I believe that OP was embarrassed/ashamed AND annoyed/frustrated when Reeva screamed HHH…

… in OP's mind it was embarrassing because the neighbors would certainly hear that and OP would have to face those neighbors on a daily basis… plus there is the whole media aspect… the screams for help by Reeva could be leaked in the media and that would be disastrous for OP's sponsors : another incident of violence towards a woman… not good.

… in OP's mind it was annoying and frustrating because he deemed Reeva was overreacting to the situation they were in… OP mimicked Reeva's behavior to show her how "stupid" her reactions were… By shouting HHH, OP reflected onto Reeva her own behavior… this is a very common and well-known mechanism during a couple's heated argument or between children.

It's a bit like :

X : "Stop or I'm calling the police"
Y : "Go ahead call the police"
X : "I'm serious I'll call the police"
Y : "No problem, I'll call the police myself"

In this example X is probably genuine in her threat to call the police if Y's behavior does not stop… but Y is not genuine in his desire for wanting the police called.

Now say that Y shoots and kills X… witnesses say they heard a both a woman (X) and a man (Y) scream for the police…

… can we infer that Y could not have murdered X because he was heard screaming for the police… I think not… same goes for the HHH in OP's case

EXCELLENT, AJ!

Since I fully believe that OP is a narcissist, yelling a mocking "Help! Help! Help!" during a vicious fight is absolutely what a person in a narcissistic rage would do.

If OP did yell HHH from the balcony (I'm voting NO WAY) it must have been in a "soft manner" because the very LAST thing he wanted was immediate help from some random neighbor(s)!!

His strategic plan was to stall everyone else and get buddy Stander to his house FIRST to witness his tragic theatrics.

FWIW, the short page below is definitely worth reading - perhaps a jumping off point for further exploration. (May explain a lot of what we've seen in OP.)

IMHO, the article screams OP. (Remember OP's very nasty, hostile reaction to losing the 200M to Alan Oliveira? Arnu Fourie moving out to another room because OP was screaming and yelling all the time?) Narcissists do a lot of that. They have a pathological need to be right all the time, to win all the time, they hate not being in total control, they hate losing, being called out as wrong or challenged is intolerable and they'll do ANYTHING to avoid it. It's all about EGO and POWER and whatever preserves and boosts it. ... yes, I have close personal experience with a narcissist in my family. lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_rage_and_narcissistic_injury

 

[Lux et Veritas]

As promised, here's my first draft of OP's phone usage. I'm still working on tying up some of the times (they're quite hard for a Fossil to read) so I'll repost when I've finished.

OP's 4949 phone usage

View attachment 57289

OP's 0020 phone usage

View attachment 57294 View attachment 57295 View attachment 57292

Any glaring errors or queries, just let me know. But as I said, this is still a work in progress

Mr Fossil, you are a total gem! Your hard work sure makes visualizing and keeping track of the sequence and timing of events so much easier!

BRAVO! Thank you for your very generous contribution to this OP forum!

 

[Val1]

No offence taken 44Allan!

Don't get me wrong - I don't believe OP's story for one minute - I believe that he knew it was Reeva in the bathroom and that he was shooting to kill.

However, as a bit of an insomniac myself, one thing I can relate to is contradictions: whilst the most unobtrusive of noises has the potential to disturb me, I find, for example, that I can sleep very soundly indeed to the noise of a pneumatic drill, running water, air conditioning, fans, etc.

Similarly, sometimes the slightest chink of light bothers me and at other times I can drift off with the sun full in my face.

Were I on trial for murder, I'm sure Prosecuting Counsel would have a field day: 'Sherbert, as a self-confessed light sleeper and insomniac, are you really asking Milady to believe that you were sound asleep, despite the fact that there was a pneumatic drill in operation right outside your bedroom window?

Because of these seemingly contradictory experiences, I can appreciate why one LED light in particular may have been especially irritating to OP.

So, personally, whilst I certainly don't believe that events unfolded as OP describes, I didn't feel that this was the State's strongest point.

I agree, but what that cross did uncover was definitely a strong point imo, the blood trail across the carpet onto the duvet that the jeans had been dropped on which pretty much negated OP's testimony about "running" to the patio doors to scream for help, let alone police tampering.

 

[Val1]

Quote Originally Posted by Exchange973 View Post
He "was creating an alibi". Are you trolling? I don't think you're being serious, but in case you are I'll humour you. The reason the help help help is so significant (and the reason so many people get annoyed when it is brought up) is because it strongly suggests that the screams heard were all OP and not Reeva. There are two competing arguments: either the screams were the sounds of a fight/Reeva's terror before she was shot, or they were OP's screams of horror after he realised he had shot her. OP screaming for help is inconsistent with the former interpretation and completely consistent with the latter. That is why they are so important. It means that the screams that are central to the State's case were not Reeva - or at least gives more than reasonable doubt.

How could it be OP's screams of horror after he realized he shot her? Those screams happened before he killed her. His "help, help, help" were not screams of horror, as Val1 reiterated above:

'In Afrikaans Dr Burger said the man "het om hulp geskree" which means the man called for help. The interpreter incorrectly uses the word "scream" so at 45:50 Dr Burger corrects the interpreter who then corrects the translation and says the man yelled for help.'

bbm - What's really wrong with that whole argument is OP's own testimony that he did NOT scream after he shot RS, his words were something to the effect that he didn't see any point to it....

Since the DT's position is that the gun was first, then if RS could no longer scream after the massive headwound caused by the gun and OP swore under oath that he did not see any reason to after he'd "realized he'd shot her"(which was right after he'd shot up the toilet door and as he "looked" for her behind the curtains BEFORE he'd broken down the toilet door), just who was doing all the screaming after the first set of bangshots before they ended abruptly at approximately 3:15/17 with the final set of shots that most of the witnesses heard, Frank?

 

[jimmy73]

Val, Pistorius said he didn't scream once the door was broken down and he saw Reeva, as he was 'broken'.

My own thoughts are that Reeva Steenkamp was dead and could no longer scream, and he was dumbstruck in a silent panic thinking 'What have I just done and what do I do now?'

Sent from my Windows Phone 8X by HTC using Tapatalk

 

[jimmy73]

I don't have his testimony to hand but I'm pretty sure Nel asks him and Pistorius gives a woolly answer that he was shouting and screaming, calling out to Reeva immediately after the shooting.

It's all lies IMO.

Sent from my Windows Phone 8X by HTC using Tapatalk

 

[Exchange973]

Can I be like a Supply Teacher (one whom stands in when the regular Teacher is on holiday) and try to bring you rabbling Websleuthers back into focus....?? :laughing: :drumroll:

It has come to my attention that in the last 24 hours there has been a lack of focus on what is currently happening in Court.

Judge Masipa, is not just looking at the Heads of Argument.

She is looking at the evidence in its entirety. The HOA are just the major points the Defence & State wish to present as prominent.

This should help people considering phone records, OP's testimony, Screams, Versions & Probabilities.

I raise this because I got pulled down a Rabbit hole earlier when trying to remain objective, debating with someone whom it would appear, was also down a Rabbit hole, although not the same one....

The HOA are making people forget about the Mountain of evidence to be considered. Some of which was not presented in Public.

Let's get back to class fellow Sleuthers... :websleuther:

Reality is she will heavily rely on the Heads of Argument. For sure, she won't be delving deep into the phone records etc to bring up points that weren't made in court or put to the witnesses. Therein lies an appeal.

 

[Mr Fossil]

My pleasure. Don't worry too much if OP's 0020 GPRS times aren't 100% contiguous (they're still not, even in my updated version). He's travelling out of Johannesburg during the rush hour and is losing signal every now and again (something we will have all experienced when travelling). You can see his phone dipping back and forth between 2G and 3G, and even a failed call (code CF on Moller's chart).

I'm curious about the point that Nel seems to labour with Moller that you can see where he is from these records and yet he doesn't make anything of it.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Reality is she will heavily rely on the Heads of Argument. For sure, she won't be delving deep into the phone records etc to bring up points that weren't made in court or put to the witnesses. Therein lies an appeal.

Can the State appeal an acquittal?

 

[aa9511]

I see there is a consensus on here on a clear summary of this whole trial - OP's side was a pack of lies.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

~snipped~

BBM - Yep. He needed someone who would keep his appalling behaviour private, like the incident at Tasha's when he texted Reeva to say "Angel, please don't say a thing to any one, Darren told everyone it was his fault. I can't afford for that to come out. The guys promised not to say a thing."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cared-girlfriend-reeva-steenkamp-9212563.html

Exactly, Soozie! It's bad enough the guy's a brazen liar himself but expects others to lie and cover for him! What kind of a man, what kind of a "hero" is that?

If he lied his azz off about Tasha's, it's guaranteed he lied about murder.

OP is nothing more than a selfish, self-absorbed weasel in fancy running shoes.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I'm sorry but I have to drop my two cents. I have been on the receiving end of dv, and I assure you that is absolutely plausible that OP was mocking her screams for help. IMO

Love Kills

Agree 100%. I've experienced it up close and very personal.

It's terrifying - almost maniacal in its malevolence.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

By OP’s version, he “screamed” and “shouted” at Reeva TWICE to phone the police.

Reeva never did so (even though she had her cell in the toilet).

In addition to being virtually invisible that night, OP would have us believe that she was also deaf and mute.

So what, exactly, was it that FIVE ear witnesses all heard that night?

 

[jimmy73]

I see there is a consensus on here on a clear summary of this whole trial - OP's side was a pack of lies.

If this were a trial by jury with WS members, the jury would reach a guilty verdict (by my reckoning of % of posters leaning one way or the other.) Over on Debate.org, 83% believe him to be guilty (the percentage equates to the 10-2 needed for a jury verdict).

It will certainly be interesting to hear Masipa's judgement.

 

[Interested Bystander]

aa951 or was it Exchange973 (apologies if appropriate), I see you are of the opinion that mocking is not abusive. Here is a link that shows mocking is part of the psychological abuse pattern. However, OPs treatment of Reeva shows other well noted signs of abuse, shouting, ignoring, belittling, frightening, all of which were starting to become apparent though they were still in the early weeks of their relationship. The norm is for this to happen after a while, not at the beginning. One must remember Reeva was away (3 weeks I think) filming the Tropical Island programme (sorry, the name escapes me), OP was away for 2 weeks at Christmas and the new year (in Cape Town) though he did come back on Christmas Day to see RS. Their relationship was very young and RS was already complaining quite strongly about his unacceptable behaviour - three times in the two weeks before her murder. Though Reeva may have felt she had fallen in love with OP, there were very strong signs this relationship would inevitably fail, especially given her opinion on abuse of women in SA.

http://www.vchreact.ca/read_psychological.htm

I hope a murder conviction will be handed down though I have, at times, been concerned that it would be CH. I personally think OP knew it was Reeva (especially after the Stipps stated they saw a person walking across the bathroom from right to left before the final shots and Mrs Stipps heard RS screaming as though it was coming towards her which, for me, totally precludes the possibility of there being an intruder or OP even thinking there was one). I also think the Johnson's were excellent ear witnesses. Estelle van der Merwe rather clouded the evidence as she was not sure where the voice was coming from and suggested at one point it could be from the the Farm PH. However, she knew it was the raised voice of a woman but seems to accept the HHH crying was OP as suggested by her husband. I think it is possible Masipa may ignore her evidence.

 

[Sherbert]

Hi Val! Yes, ironically for OP, the jeans on the LED light turned out to be quite handy for the State!

 

[sleuth-d-]

Reality is she will heavily rely on the Heads of Argument. For sure, she won't be delving deep into the phone records etc to bring up points that weren't made in court or put to the witnesses. Therein lies an appeal.

i hope masipa and the two assessors don't totally rely of the heads of argument, as i believe roux and his team have seriously misrepresented dr stipp's evidence in closing. either by accident [hard to believe the whole team have the times wrong], or deliberately [more likely]. all this talk of calling security at 3:27 and then dropping it into dr stipp's timeline, to shift his actions on 10 minutes...

as he is the closest ear and eye witness to the event... saw the light on... is a respected professional, and came bravely to the scene, they have been needing to discredit his version from the start.

as far as i can see there is nothing to say his 'raising the alarm' call to security was at 3:27 in his spoken court evidence… can anyone point me towards dr stipp’s telephone records [if they are available], to see if this is the case.

 

[Sherbert]

Reality is she will heavily rely on the Heads of Argument. For sure, she won't be delving deep into the phone records etc to bring up points that weren't made in court or put to the witnesses. Therein lies an appeal.

BBM

True. I suspect that the attention to detail will be considerably less than we find here on Websleuths.

Nevertheless, hopefully, Milady will be carefully to extract the factual detail necessary to make some robust findings of fact that will make a successful appeal very difficult to achieve.

 

[kittychi]

If you find the logic irrational and bizarre that is exactly my point: this is the logic you are using to attack OP. People are using inconsistencies and differences between OP's evidence and his bail affidavit etc to say he is lying. I'm making the point that slight differences in the evidence, even multiple slight differences, are commonplace in trials. But yes, as you say, hopefully someone else will address what I say.

Do you remember the 30 seconds of silence from OP after Nel asked him if Reeva screamed? IMO he was "trying not to lie" and was trying to come up with a plausible answer that would fit with his own version.

Why not a simple "no?"

 

[kittychi]

Reality is she will heavily rely on the Heads of Argument. For sure, she won't be delving deep into the phone records etc to bring up points that weren't made in court or put to the witnesses. Therein lies an appeal.

Maybe not the phone records, but the judge and assessors were there for all of the testimonies which they can compare to the heads of argument. It should become obvious that Roux is trying to make a very elaborate calico soup out of straightforward testimony of Prosecution witnesses.

I do think Roux is earning his money...he has had to twist himself up into a pretzel so much it is surprising that he can still stand up straight and walk.