Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Interested Bystander]

Example of bail pending appeal being denied after conviction:

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/judgments/sca_2013/sca2013-001.pdf

I wasn't going to post the following because I feel you are not prepared to accept that on occasion bail is allowed before an Appeal, even for murderers. I found these by Googling. It took half an hour. Perhaps your string wasn't quite right. Not only do lawyers from SA state this is likely to happen but the following links show that it does happen. It is not something I wish to happen as I think OP should be put away for life but I have many doubts this is going to happen in the near future. I sincerely hope I am wrong because my concern is that if he gets bail prior to an Appeal there will be around 18 months for his family to pull strings or for him to abscond.

http://www.heraldlive.co.za/platinum-heist-planner-released-on-bail/

Judge Glenn Goosen said in his judgment that as Madoda Dopla Nube, 38, of New Brighton, had not broken his bail conditions while he was on bail during the trial, he could be released on bail again pending a decision on his appeal before the Supreme Court of Appeal.

Nube was convicted by the Port Elizabeth High Court on charges of robbery with aggravating circumstances, two counts of attempted murder and six counts of murder.

www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2007/93.rtf

[19] It is important to note that the appellant was released on bail during the entire period of his trial. It is not disputed that the State, recognising that bail had been refused by the trial court on the narrow basis that there were no prospects of success, agreed not to oppose a fresh application for bail and in fact agreed bail conditions subject to the court’s approval. As noted earlier the State has not filed an affidavit in opposition and has therefore not indicated that the appellant is a flight risk. Furthermore, there is no factual basis on which one can conclude that it is not in the interests of justice for the appellant to be released pending the finalisation of his appeal.

http://www.corruptionwatch.org.za/content/enraged-release-whistleblower’s-murderers-0

“Mr Wolmarans and Mr Matshaba were convicted by the High Court in Mafikeng and sentenced to 20 years in jail and life imprisonment respectively. However, they have been granted leave to appeal their conviction to a full bench of the high court and released on bail pending the outcome of the appeal.

There are two reasons this should not concern us. First, it is common for convicted criminals to be granted bail. If their conviction is eventually upheld, they will still have to serve their sentences. The release on bail should not worry potential whistleblowers — it means the law is simply taking its course.”

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/10/24/family-objects-to-bailed-phakoe-killers-partying

In the letter to the NPA, the family said Wolmarans was "throwing parties" for friends and Matshaba was "still coming to the same street where he shot and killed Moss Phakoe".

"We are very confused about our justice system, which turns to favour the ones with financial powers and disregard the needs of the poor," Phakoe’s son Tlholo wrote to the NPA.”

Eventually these two won their appeal. A witness, after the trial, said he had been paid to lie. One wonders whether someone had paid him to change his mind. I am a cynic.


http://www.groundup.org.za/article/guide-being-tried-murder-south-africa_1787

The basic rule is that the conviction and sentence are not suspended pending the appeal, so the appellant must go to prison in the meantime. But the court that convicted the appellant may, upon application and if it deems it appropriate, release the accused on bail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimin...ear_or_failure_to_observe_a_condition_of_bail

Bail pending appeal
When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence unless the court releases the convicted person on bail.[120] If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail, in the same amount or in any other amount.[121]

If the convicted person was not previously on bail for the trial, the court may release him on bail on condition that he deposits the stated amount.[122] The court may permit the convicted person to furnish a guarantee instead of cash.[123] It shall be a condition of release that the convicted person shall surrender himself at the time and place specified by court, and upon service of notice in the prescribed manner, to commence the sentence, in the event that the convicted person still has to undergo imprisonment after the disposal of the appeal.[124]
______________________

I also came across a study paper where it was argued, between lawyers, that not to allow bail if an appeal is granted is morally wrong because there is always the possibility that different judges will find the defendant not guilty and if bail has not been allowed he/she will have been wrongly incarcerated for a long time. I cannot now find that paper but if I do I will post the link. Unfortunately I cleared my history today and I had not saved it.

Not long now until we hear the verdict and all will become clear. Fingers crossed he will be packed off jail.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Here is what I fear:

OP is only found guilty of CH.

OP remains free on bail during his appeal.

Even if the verdict stands, OP gets special consideration due to his disability (and his celebrity status, and his family pulling strings, etc).

As a result, OP skates on prison time.

Instead, OP will "solemnly & dutifully" preform many hours of wimpy celebrity service to the community.

And he will weep (when cameras are on him) for the memory of Reeva, and that awful mistake he made.

Projectile vomiting (me)

I have total confidence that My Lady will nail OP’s blades to a prison wall for murder.

They say a person’s past history predicts their future actions.

Considering her strong history of convictions and harsh sentences against sociopaths (and if SA had the death penalty), she would be known as My Lady “Hanging Judge” Masipa.

 

[sleuth-d-]

It occurred to me that no matter who was behind that door, Oscar would have been faced with an injured or murdered human being.

Why wouldn't he call Security for help immediately, even if he thought there was an intruder in that toilet room. If his version were true, he still HAD to know there was an injured or dead person behind that door after he fired the shots.

He says it wasn't until THEN that all of a sudden "it dawns on him" that he hasn't heard any response from Reeva, but he says he still spends valuable time scruffling around in the bedroom looking behind curtains, etc., for her. Really, Oscar? She maybe was hiding behind the curtains???

His whole story is a huge, stinkin' crock. inocchio:

that is a great point...

op has to have reeva disappear... as the invented intruder appears... then the invented intruder fades away... as the real reeva is re-discovered.

you are absolutely right that there is an uncomfortable gap for op - between shooting the 'intruder' and deciding that it was reeva.

and he really has no answer as to why he stopped at four shots [in his version]

 

[kittychi]

The Daily Star Sunday can reveal the amputee runner’s prized trophies were strewn across the floor when officers arrived – and some were damaged. Investigators believe this may point to a row between Pistorius and girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp before he shot her four times. Officers are trying to establish whether the awards might have ended up around his home during an alleged dispute. ...

One police source said: “... One had been wrecked and they were in an untidy mess. ...”

Oscar Pistorius’ trophies were strewn all over death flat
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...rius-trophies-were-strewn-all-over-death-flat

Has anyone seen any other media sources that would help confirm this alleged event?

(Who is this Silver Woods security chief Patrick Roux who’s referenced?)

Nope, only that one report along with a report by "unnamed officials" that there was evidence of heavy drinking. These came out I think before his lawyers and PR group got control of what was released.

I still suspect these reports are true, but I have never seen them anywhere else. If true, though, it seems Hilton Botha would have mentioned it, at least in his magazine interviews, no?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Nope, only that one report along with a report by "unnamed officials" that there was evidence of heavy drinking. These came out I think before his lawyers and PR group got control of what was released.

I still suspect these reports are true, but I have never seen them anywhere else. If true, though, it seems Hilton Botha would have mentioned it, at least in his magazine interviews, no?

Botha actually said OP's house was very neat and tidy. I think OP obviously drinks a lot and I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the picture, especially when he didn't have a blood test until the next afternoon. However, I think he had a urine test and that should have shown up any alcohol. I am now wondering whether somehow that got lost or wasn't taken until the next day.


http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder
“It was a big house and very neat and tidy,” said Botha

 

[Val1]

Nope, only that one report along with a report by "unnamed officials" that there was evidence of heavy drinking. These came out I think before his lawyers and PR group got control of what was released.

I still suspect these reports are true, but I have never seen them anywhere else. If true, though, it seems Hilton Botha would have mentioned it, at least in his magazine interviews, no?

I suppose it depends on whether HB wanted to possibly interfere with the case and although I would hope that's not the case, I'd read in an older article that he was responsible for the assault charges against OP in 2009, where he had been the investigating officer, being dropped. As has been noted by others, it's surprising that this assault charge basically had to be prodded out of HB during the bail hearing by the judge at the time. You'd think that it would have helped the police in preventing OP from getting bail so who knows what strings were being pulled.

bbm - I came across this little quote that I found rather frustrating in light of the current situation, it seems the golden boy is allowed to have "accidents" forgiven, though everyone else is expected to adhere to the law.:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/14/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSBRE91D0AE20130214

Pistorius was arrested in 2009 for assault after slamming a door on a woman and spent a night in police custody. Family and friends said it was just an accident and charges were dropped.

 

[Val1]

Botha actually said OP's house was very neat and tidy. I think OP obviously drinks a lot and I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the picture, especially when he didn't have a blood test until the next afternoon. However, I think he had a urine test and that should have shown up any alcohol. I am now wondering whether somehow that got lost or wasn't taken until the next day.


http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder
“It was a big house and very neat and tidy,” said Botha

bbm - I had read that it had... :/

 

[geevee]

OP thinks murder spared the pain. Therefore he also executed the poor dog, severely injured by him.

I guess I'm gonna harp on this aspect again. lol

I still can't fathom why there was no charge included for this, OP is the one who apparently admitted doing such in an interview (that someone here kindly linked for me, and thanks), but if weapons charges were included to show his utter lack of responsibility towards guns, as well as character testimony - not to mention his disregard for life, this event is a perfect example of the mindset of a person that would kill a defenseless woman behind a door. It just drives me wild that it wasn't brought into court and him being made to answer for it.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

True enough but where did the ideas for some of those stories come from, I believe most of them had some truth to them otherwise you can bet Uncle Arnold would have sued for liable or whatever asap. As for the trophies, those could have easily been cleaned up by Frank, OP's family, lawyer, any of the 3 Stander's that were there, let alone any of the police that may have been fans of his. As for the phone, someone must have told them something, how else would they have known alot of that info. Poor Mr.Myers... I doubt he would have noticed the bruises that were determined as unrelated to the gunshots and as for the bloodied bat, many would have come to the same conclusion that the blood on it must have come from RS. Don't forget, most of these early stories were before the autopsy and even the bail hearing so someone talked somewhere, just like someone took pics of the crime scene and then sold them to Sky News. As for not being presented as evidence, Nel didn't present any argument about what happened after the murder, his whole case was simply to prove that OP had murdered RS with intent and anything that didn't relate directly to that just didn't matter to him... much to our dissatisfaction.

Agree, Val.

The most damning evidence against OP’s “intruder” story would be hard physical evidence of a fight between Reeva and him. The first thing a guilty, panicked murderer wants to do is get rid of evidence and/or manipulate the scene. OP couldn’t do anything about the damaged bedroom door but he sure could clean up broken and thrown trophies.

It’s important to note that the crime scene was totally UNSECURED for approximately 20 minutes (when van Rensburg arrived at about 3:45am). One or more people can do A LOT to a crime scene in that time.

There’s a reason OP called his good buddy Stander FIRST*, why he didn’t want to talk to security, why he didn’t call police, why he didn’t want anyone “official” there - he needed TIME. Time for what?

It’s entirely possible in my mind that strewn trophies on the floor were placed back on shelves, the broken ones either tossed into the outside trash container (visible in front of the house in photos that morning) or “smuggled” away from the scene.

We know that OP’s family/friends stole his 0020 phone, likely also stole that “missing” watch - why not dispose of incriminating evidence of the one thing that would most certainly convict OP of murder?

It’s also entirely possible that the fight did begin downstairs, escalated to assault and throwing stuff - OP could certainly have hit Reeva with one or more of those trophies (the unexplained bruises, the wounds on her back, even a bleeding head injury?) ... which would also explain the blood drops in the living room and on the sofa.

* In a dire crisis, you only call people you 100% trust.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Oooh, you wouldn't want to come home a bit pissed, would you. Look at all those holes ready to fall into. Whoever thought that was a good idea.

I'm guessing they're planter holes and soil would fill them up to close to level with the pathway. Hilarious if they were filled with plants like the one in the foreground.

 

[JudgeJudi]

YOU ASKED FOR IT ... HERE IT IS

South Africa Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1977 – Updated to 29 October 2010

CHAPTER 9
BAIL (ss 58-71)

"58 Effect of bail

The effect of bail granted in terms of the succeeding provisions is that an accused who is in custody shall be released from custody upon payment of, or the furnishing of a guarantee to pay, the sum of money determined for his bail, and that he shall appear at the place and on the date and at the time appointed for his trial or to which the proceedings relating to the offence in respect of which the accused is released on bail are adjourned, and that the release shall, unless sooner terminated under the said provisions, endure until a verdict is given by a court in respect of the charge to which the offence in question relates, or, where sentence is not imposed forthwith after verdict and the court in question extends bail, until sentence is imposed: Provided that where a court convicts an accused of an offence contemplated in Schedule 5 or 6, the court shall, in considering the question whether the accused's bail should be extended, apply the provisions of section 60 (11) (a) or (b), as the case may be, and the court shall take into account -

(a) the fact that the accused has been convicted of that offence; and
(b) the likely sentence which the court might impose.


321 When execution of sentence may be suspended

(1) The execution of the sentence of a superior court shall not be suspended by reason of any appeal against a conviction or by reason of any question of law having been reserved for consideration by the court of appeal, unless -
(a) ......
[Para. (a) deleted by s. 2 of Act 33 of 1997.]

(b) the superior court from which the appeal is made or by which the question is reserved thinks fit to order that the accused be released on bail or that he be treated as an unconvicted prisoner until the appeal or the question reserved has been heard and decided:

Provided that when the accused is ultimately sentenced to imprisonment the time during which he was so released on bail shall be excluded in computing the term for which he is so sentenced: Provided further that when the accused has been detained as an unconvicted prisoner, the time during which he has been so detained shall be included or excluded in computing the term for which he is ultimately sentenced, as the court of appeal may determine.

(2) If the court orders that the accused be released on bail, the provisions of sections 66, 67 and 68 and of subsections (2), (3), (4) and (5) of section 307 shall mutatis mutandis [making necessary alterations while not affecting the main point at issue] apply with reference to bail so granted, and any reference in -

(a) section 66 to the court which may act under that section, shall be deemed to be a reference to the superior court by which the accused was released on bail;”

http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/acts/1977-051.pdf

From the above it’s clear that convicted persons can apply for bail and that it will be at Masipa’s discretion as to whether or not his bail is extended. If this happens, I’d like to think his bail conditions are changed though.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

1. Gee if OP hadn't taken the stand he couldn't have wept, wailed and puked to try and convince the judge and public how distressed he is.
2. A family of great wealth that can also afford to lose the bail amount should their dear "golden boy" need to fly free.
3. Can anyone guarantee how secure their living arrangements are? I hear Ebola is on the rise, let alone earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, etc and I'm not just talking about Africa.
4. Yea sure, if you discount the info on the thumb drive/s with offshore accounts that his brother and lawyer were so focused on retrieving from the crime scene that they called in a locksmith while the police were still there. Apparently some of the other reported ownership claims were "untruths". ie. a home in Italy, a McLaren and who knows what else

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/13/oscar-was-worried-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva

Exactly, Val.

R1 000 000 bail [$112,000] is pocket change to people like the Pistorius family.

Not only that -

Uncle Theo ... also has coastal properties in Mozambique, interests in an armoured vehicle dealer and a charter flight company.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/301633/Oscar-Pistorius-runs-up-200k-legal-bill

Sounds like an instant escape plan to me.

I'm confident enough I'd stake my life on the fact that the Pistorius clan has already extensively discussed detailed, alternate "plans", should the very worst befall their dear Oscar.

There's NO way they would allow him to rot in a SA prison.

They've got the money, they've got the national and international connections.

Oscar Pistorius would simply "disappear".

 

[eimajjjj]

I wasn't going to post the following because I feel you are not prepared to accept that on occasion bail is allowed before an Appeal, even for murderers. I found these by Googling. It took half an hour. Perhaps your string wasn't quite right. Not only do lawyers from SA state this is likely to happen but the following links show that it does happen. It is not something I wish to happen as I think OP should be put away for life but I have many doubts this is going to happen in the near future. I sincerely hope I am wrong because my concern is that if he gets bail prior to an Appeal there will be around 18 months for his family to pull strings or for him to abscond.

http://www.heraldlive.co.za/platinum-heist-planner-released-on-bail/

Judge Glenn Goosen said in his judgment that as Madoda Dopla Nube, 38, of New Brighton, had not broken his bail conditions while he was on bail during the trial, he could be released on bail again pending a decision on his appeal before the Supreme Court of Appeal.

Nube was convicted by the Port Elizabeth High Court on charges of robbery with aggravating circumstances, two counts of attempted murder and six counts of murder.

www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2007/93.rtf

[19] It is important to note that the appellant was released on bail during the entire period of his trial. It is not disputed that the State, recognising that bail had been refused by the trial court on the narrow basis that there were no prospects of success, agreed not to oppose a fresh application for bail and in fact agreed bail conditions subject to the court’s approval. As noted earlier the State has not filed an affidavit in opposition and has therefore not indicated that the appellant is a flight risk. Furthermore, there is no factual basis on which one can conclude that it is not in the interests of justice for the appellant to be released pending the finalisation of his appeal.

http://www.corruptionwatch.org.za/content/enraged-release-whistleblower’s-murderers-0

“Mr Wolmarans and Mr Matshaba were convicted by the High Court in Mafikeng and sentenced to 20 years in jail and life imprisonment respectively. However, they have been granted leave to appeal their conviction to a full bench of the high court and released on bail pending the outcome of the appeal.

There are two reasons this should not concern us. First, it is common for convicted criminals to be granted bail. If their conviction is eventually upheld, they will still have to serve their sentences. The release on bail should not worry potential whistleblowers — it means the law is simply taking its course.”

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/10/24/family-objects-to-bailed-phakoe-killers-partying

In the letter to the NPA, the family said Wolmarans was "throwing parties" for friends and Matshaba was "still coming to the same street where he shot and killed Moss Phakoe".

"We are very confused about our justice system, which turns to favour the ones with financial powers and disregard the needs of the poor," Phakoe’s son Tlholo wrote to the NPA.”

Eventually these two won their appeal. A witness, after the trial, said he had been paid to lie. One wonders whether someone had paid him to change his mind. I am a cynic.


http://www.groundup.org.za/article/guide-being-tried-murder-south-africa_1787

The basic rule is that the conviction and sentence are not suspended pending the appeal, so the appellant must go to prison in the meantime. But the court that convicted the appellant may, upon application and if it deems it appropriate, release the accused on bail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimin...ear_or_failure_to_observe_a_condition_of_bail

Bail pending appeal
When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence unless the court releases the convicted person on bail.[120] If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail, in the same amount or in any other amount.[121]

If the convicted person was not previously on bail for the trial, the court may release him on bail on condition that he deposits the stated amount.[122] The court may permit the convicted person to furnish a guarantee instead of cash.[123] It shall be a condition of release that the convicted person shall surrender himself at the time and place specified by court, and upon service of notice in the prescribed manner, to commence the sentence, in the event that the convicted person still has to undergo imprisonment after the disposal of the appeal.[124]
______________________

I also came across a study paper where it was argued, between lawyers, that not to allow bail if an appeal is granted is morally wrong because there is always the possibility that different judges will find the defendant not guilty and if bail has not been allowed he/she will have been wrongly incarcerated for a long time. I cannot now find that paper but if I do I will post the link. Unfortunately I cleared my history today and I had not saved it.

Not long now until we hear the verdict and all will become clear. Fingers crossed he will be packed off jail.

Well you do seem hellbent on implying that OP will get bail. You've posted that Dadic article a number of times, seemed to ignore the law norm and circumstances of OP's case and in one case even changed the race of someone to help strengthen your point! I'm not going to play tit-for-tat and list innumerable cases where bail wasn't granted but let's just to look at the ones you posted. The majority of murder cases have no bail pending appeal, but you found some which have some extraordinary circumstances, some completely irrelevant to OP:

First case: if you read the actual judgement on his bail (http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZAECPEHC/2014/34.html), at point 9, you can see that this guy tipped the police off before the robbery and because this may likely result in an appeal being upheld, bail was granted.

Second case: the guy was actually REFUSED bail pending appeal twice. He was incarcerated straight after sentencing. He then tried again but was still denied. The court said "The general attitude of a court is that when an accused person is still awaiting trial and where there is no indication that the interests of justice might be prejudiced that such an accused person should be released on bail on suitable conditions pending his trial. The notion is underpinned by the presumption of innocence against any accused person, which exists in our law. However, once an accused person has been convicted and sentenced, the position changes radically, because the presumption of innocence against the accused is no longer applicable and the court now knows for a fact that an accused person has in fact been convicted. . ."

Then, only after the appeal against the original convictions were allowed, and the state chose not to file an opposition (which the judge seemes to imply was a mistake by the state calling it "unfortunate" and listing it under the condonation section) the judge gave leave. So this wasn't bail pending appeal at all.

Third case: bail was granted due to "a state witness who had implicated Mr Wolmarans and Mr Matshaba in Mr Phakoe’s murder — stated after the trial that he had lied on the witness stand." and "the evidence on which the high court relied to convict his clients had glaring holes."

So these cases are rather unique.

And the other articles you posted imply that the norm is sending convicted murderers away to prison straightaway ("The basic rule is that the conviction and sentence are not suspended pending the appeal, so the appellant must go to prison ")

ETA: Masipa has conducted this trial as incredibly fair as she has to avoid this eventuality. If I can make an assumption, she probably had an inkling that OP was guilty as hell from the beginning and wanted to make sure he got the fairest of fair trials. Remember that there is a difference between bail pending appeal and bail once an appeal has been granted. I'm sure Roux will manage to secure an appeal process on a dubious ground or two but even then I doubt there will be sufficient likelihood of that appeal's success in order to sway any judge to grant leave while it's being processed, let alone before it's even been granted!

 

[JudgeJudi]

It occurred to me that no matter who was behind that door, Oscar would have been faced with an injured or murdered human being.

Why wouldn't he call Security for help immediately, even if he thought there was an intruder in that toilet room. If his version were true, he still HAD to know there was an injured or dead person behind that door after he fired the shots.

He says it wasn't until THEN that all of a sudden "it dawns on him" that he hasn't heard any response from Reeva, but he says he still spends valuable time scruffling around in the bedroom looking behind curtains, etc., for her, while a dead or injured person bleeds in his toilet. Really, Oscar? She maybe was hiding behind the curtains???

His whole story is a such a huge, stinkin' crock. inocchio:

Exactly. Isn't the whole point of living in a secure gated community with armed guards at the entrance and patrolling the grounds to protect you from intruders and/or someone attacking you and you can get help immediately when you're in you're in your home with alarms and panic buttons. If he wasn't prepared to ring security for help or use the panic buttons, he may just as well lived in a cheaper place with no security.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I wasn't going to post the following because I feel you are not prepared to accept that on occasion bail is allowed before an Appeal, even for murderers. I found these by Googling. It took half an hour. Perhaps your string wasn't quite right. Not only do lawyers from SA state this is likely to happen but the following links show that it does happen. It is not something I wish to happen as I think OP should be put away for life but I have many doubts this is going to happen in the near future. I sincerely hope I am wrong because my concern is that if he gets bail prior to an Appeal there will be around 18 months for his family to pull strings or for him to abscond.

http://www.heraldlive.co.za/platinum-heist-planner-released-on-bail/

Judge Glenn Goosen said in his judgment that as Madoda Dopla Nube, 38, of New Brighton, had not broken his bail conditions while he was on bail during the trial, he could be released on bail again pending a decision on his appeal before the Supreme Court of Appeal.

Nube was convicted by the Port Elizabeth High Court on charges of robbery with aggravating circumstances, two counts of attempted murder and six counts of murder.

www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2007/93.rtf

[19] It is important to note that the appellant was released on bail during the entire period of his trial. It is not disputed that the State, recognising that bail had been refused by the trial court on the narrow basis that there were no prospects of success, agreed not to oppose a fresh application for bail and in fact agreed bail conditions subject to the court’s approval. As noted earlier the State has not filed an affidavit in opposition and has therefore not indicated that the appellant is a flight risk. Furthermore, there is no factual basis on which one can conclude that it is not in the interests of justice for the appellant to be released pending the finalisation of his appeal.

http://www.corruptionwatch.org.za/content/enraged-release-whistleblower’s-murderers-0

“Mr Wolmarans and Mr Matshaba were convicted by the High Court in Mafikeng and sentenced to 20 years in jail and life imprisonment respectively. However, they have been granted leave to appeal their conviction to a full bench of the high court and released on bail pending the outcome of the appeal.

There are two reasons this should not concern us. First, it is common for convicted criminals to be granted bail. If their conviction is eventually upheld, they will still have to serve their sentences. The release on bail should not worry potential whistleblowers — it means the law is simply taking its course.”

http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/10/24/family-objects-to-bailed-phakoe-killers-partying

In the letter to the NPA, the family said Wolmarans was "throwing parties" for friends and Matshaba was "still coming to the same street where he shot and killed Moss Phakoe".

"We are very confused about our justice system, which turns to favour the ones with financial powers and disregard the needs of the poor," Phakoe’s son Tlholo wrote to the NPA.”

Eventually these two won their appeal. A witness, after the trial, said he had been paid to lie. One wonders whether someone had paid him to change his mind. I am a cynic.


http://www.groundup.org.za/article/guide-being-tried-murder-south-africa_1787

The basic rule is that the conviction and sentence are not suspended pending the appeal, so the appellant must go to prison in the meantime. But the court that convicted the appellant may, upon application and if it deems it appropriate, release the accused on bail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimin...ear_or_failure_to_observe_a_condition_of_bail

Bail pending appeal
When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence unless the court releases the convicted person on bail.[120] If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail, in the same amount or in any other amount.[121]

If the convicted person was not previously on bail for the trial, the court may release him on bail on condition that he deposits the stated amount.[122] The court may permit the convicted person to furnish a guarantee instead of cash.[123] It shall be a condition of release that the convicted person shall surrender himself at the time and place specified by court, and upon service of notice in the prescribed manner, to commence the sentence, in the event that the convicted person still has to undergo imprisonment after the disposal of the appeal.[124]
______________________

I also came across a study paper where it was argued, between lawyers, that not to allow bail if an appeal is granted is morally wrong because there is always the possibility that different judges will find the defendant not guilty and if bail has not been allowed he/she will have been wrongly incarcerated for a long time. I cannot now find that paper but if I do I will post the link. Unfortunately I cleared my history today and I had not saved it.

Not long now until we hear the verdict and all will become clear. Fingers crossed he will be packed off jail.

Congratulations IB, that was great work finding those. I'd heard of one but couldn't find it and no-one else seems to have found any either. Take a bow. :tyou:

 

[ggullet]

This is what I believed happened
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cciQg3ptZcg&list=UUFcNCLzRKas9X3kFoRhXlEg

 

[vansleuths]

Agree, Val.

The most damning evidence against OP’s “intruder” story would be hard physical evidence of a fight between Reeva and him. The first thing a guilty, panicked murderer wants to do is get rid of evidence and/or manipulate the scene. OP couldn’t do anything about the damaged bedroom door but he sure could clean up broken and thrown trophies.

It’s important to note that the crime scene was totally UNSECURED for approximately 20 minutes (when van Rensburg arrived at about 3:45am). One or more people can do A LOT to a crime scene in that time.

There’s a reason OP called his good buddy Stander FIRST*, why he didn’t want to talk to security, why he didn’t call police, why he didn’t want anyone “official” there - he needed TIME. Time for what?

It’s entirely possible in my mind that strewn trophies on the floor were placed back on shelves, the broken ones either tossed into the outside trash container (visible in front of the house in photos that morning) or “smuggled” away from the scene.

We know that OP’s family/friends stole his 0020 phone, likely also stole that “missing” watch - why not dispose of incriminating evidence of the one thing that would most certainly convict OP of murder?

It’s also entirely possible that the fight did begin downstairs, escalated to assault and throwing stuff - OP could certainly have hit Reeva with one or more of those trophies (the unexplained bruises, the wounds on her back, even a bleeding head injury?) ... which would also explain the blood drops in the living room and on the sofa.

* In a dire crisis, you only call people you 100% trust.

Were trophies being strewn all over the place confirmed as a fact? If it was, I missed it.

BIB Assuming I missed this, this would be a bit of a challenge to prove.

If we accept the earliest reports that were released, the trophies were thrown all over the place. If that was the case, Nel would have introduced this into evidence.

Since Nel didn't introduce this, it would seem to imply that the original reports were incorrect. This would mean that any alleged clean-up of the trophies by the Pistorius family would be speculation with no evidence to back it up. It would be no different than saying that Pistorius broke all the dishes during the argument but the family cleaned it up.

MOO

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Were trophies being strewn all over the place confirmed as a fact? If it was, I missed it.

BIB Assuming I missed this, this would be a bit of a challenge to prove.

If we accept the earliest reports that were released, the trophies were thrown all over the place. If that was the case, Nel would have introduced this into evidence.

Since Nel didn't introduce this, it would seem to imply that the original reports were incorrect. This would mean that any alleged clean-up of the trophies by the Pistorius family would be speculation with no evidence to back it up. It would be no different than saying that Pistorius broke all the dishes during the argument but the family cleaned it up.

MOO

Not fact, I've searched for any articles, one was in DailyStar and an Indian paper, so not reliable sources. In these reports several were broken, this would have been easy to check out if any trophies on his shelf were missing. jmo


http://zeenews.india.com/sports/oth...oor-on-night-of-steenkamps-murder_758203.html

 

[Val1]

Were trophies being strewn all over the place confirmed as a fact? If it was, I missed it.

BIB Assuming I missed this, this would be a bit of a challenge to prove.

If we accept the earliest reports that were released, the trophies were thrown all over the place. If that was the case, Nel would have introduced this into evidence.

Since Nel didn't introduce this, it would seem to imply that the original reports were incorrect. This would mean that any alleged clean-up of the trophies by the Pistorius family would be speculation with no evidence to back it up. It would be no different than saying that Pistorius broke all the dishes during the argument but the family cleaned it up.

MOO

My earlier response to the same reaction from another poster was that obviously there was no proof since none of it made it, to our knowledge, to court as evidence, and yes I speculated as to why there would not have been any proof. There was certainly a large contingent of support on/in the crime scene for OP literally minutes after he shot RS dead. Since we have no way of knowing how much OP or his support team may have tampered with the scene both before and during the police investigation all we can do is try to piece together what we've heard and apply whatever facts there are to support the stories. This is besides the fact that Nel had no interest in anything that didn't directly tie in to OP killing RS with intent, ergo why none of the stuff that happened after OP shot and killed her was explored in any depth either, imo.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Nope, only that one report along with a report by "unnamed officials" that there was evidence of heavy drinking. These came out I think before his lawyers and PR group got control of what was released.

I still suspect these reports are true, but I have never seen them anywhere else. If true, though, it seems Hilton Botha would have mentioned it, at least in his magazine interviews, no?

If the mess was cleaned up before the police arrived, there would be nothing to report on that count.

To the best of my knowledge, van Rensburg arrived around 3:45am and Botha at 4:15.

Plenty of time for a few trophies to be re-shelved and broken pieces swept up/trashed/removed from the scene.