Things that are Plaguing Me

[Toltec]

BBM
Man, that was one gross house.

You got that right! LOL

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Unflushed in the basement bathroom? Who went to the bathroom in the basement? I don't think the R's spent a lot of time down in the basement since it wasn't finished so I doubt John, Patsy, JBR, or Burke used it prior to 12/25. Did someone go to the bathroom late 12/25 or 12/26? Why wouldn't they just go upstairs? And why didn't they flush? Did they not want anyone to hear it? Weird!!

 

[DeeDee249]

Unflushed in the basement bathroom? Who went to the bathroom in the basement? I don't think the R's spent a lot of time down in the basement since it wasn't finished so I doubt John, Patsy, JBR, or Burke used it prior to 12/25. Did someone go to the bathroom late 12/25 or 12/26? Why wouldn't they just go upstairs? And why didn't they flush? Did they not want anyone to hear it? Weird!!

Patsy told LE that BR and his friends played in the basement all the time (the train room, usually, where the train set was always set up) and that he and his friends always used that basement bathroom.
Don't be deceived by the crime photos. The WC and furnace rooms were unfinished, but the rest of the basement had carpeting and was "finished" in a manner of speaking, but messy by anyone's standards. In fact, the reason why JR said the WC door had that wooden latch up so high was so that the kids wouldn't play in THERE.

 

[Peepers]

Perhaps someone (in the house) got Jonbonet up , they ate pineapple and she was lured to basement with the premise of playing or there were more gifts there. Perhaps this is not the first time the person "played" with Jonbonet in the basement. It sounds like the kids were comfortable playing down there.

 

[Agatha_C]

PR has to many memory lapses for me, it goes beyond lying. Its almost as if she doesnt know a lot about what she or anyone does. Like the rubber bands from the news papers (quoting from memory, here) "I think thats where I would put the rubber bands from the paper." No need for a lie there or to be vague, so why does she only thinks she does it? Y'all know more about this then I do, but her memory problems go far beyond even the crime, its sad really. Unless she is a habitual liar and then well, lying is what she does.

Oh PR, were you brilliant or did you really just need some help?

I need to clarify something I wrote. The bold sentence, what I meant to say or should have said was---> I have experience with mental illness, as I have posted in another thread (about my sister). When I say Y'all know more about this then I do, I refer to PR and her ways. You've been reading the transcripts far longer than I. I didnt want to confuse anyone...lol.... It is with strong conviction (opinion), that I say PR was either on drugs or suffering from a personality disorder, or both... Again, just my opinion!

 

[TotallyObsessed]

To me, if an intruder kidnapper did it, they would have taken JBR out of the house - dead OR alive - and left the ransom note to get money. The R's would have never known JBR was dead...they would have paid the money. Kidnappers would be richer than when they started. Even if their plan had gone wrong and JBR was killed while trying to kidnap her...they still could have pulled off a ransom drop....just kept up the ruse that they had the R's daughter.

There was no intruder kidnapper.

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I have a question for anyone here that knows WAAAAY more about this case than I do at this point.

Could JBR have been deceased when she was carried in from the car to her bed? PR kept saying she was "zonked" and never woke up. I am reading LA's deposition transcript and something she said made me think she thought the murder occurred somewhere else. The staging occured at the house.

 

[Agatha_C]

I have a question for anyone here that knows WAAAAY more about this case than I do at this point.

Could JBR have been deceased when she was carried in from the car to her bed? PR kept saying she was "zonked" and never woke up. I am reading LA's deposition transcript and something she said made me think she thought the murder occurred somewhere else. The staging occured at the house.

Totally,

BR, at first said JB walked up the stairs on her own (not exact words). I would take that too mean she was alive when she arrived home. Its my opinion from what I have read on these forums and in research, that JBR was alive and walking when she arrived home.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have a question for anyone here that knows WAAAAY more about this case than I do at this point.

Could JBR have been deceased when she was carried in from the car to her bed? PR kept saying she was "zonked" and never woke up. I am reading LA's deposition transcript and something she said made me think she thought the murder occurred somewhere else. The staging occured at the house.

Not likely. Remember forensics. The pineapple. She'd have had to eaten that while still at the party. A few hours before they left. The pineapple in her stomach was tested and found to be IDENTICAL to the pineapple in the bowl right there on the Rs table. Also, LIVOR MORTIS begins more quickly than RIGOR mortis. If she was dead and her body moved around (carried inside, placed on the bed, carried down stairs, etc) during the time she left the White's and was KNOWN to be alive, and placed in the WC, there would be MORE THAN ONE livor pattern. There was ONLY ONE. She died within 20 minutes of being placed on her back in the WC.
These different theories are certainly valid as far as the thought behind them, but science really isn't variable. The forensic findings can't be made to fit a theory, so the theories have to fit the forensics.
BR said she walked in. I think he is telling the truth. Actually, I can't think of a comment BR made that was shown to be a lie- that's the thing. He wasn't questioned about his specific role because he wasn't ALLOWED to be. Under Colorado law, LE couldn't even ACCUSE him of taking part in this crime.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not likely. Remember forensics. The pineapple. She'd have had to eaten that while still at the party. A few hours before they left. The pineapple in her stomach was tested and found to be IDENTICAL to the pineapple in the bowl right there on the Rs table. Also, LIVOR MORTIS begins more quickly than RIGOR mortis. If she was dead and her body moved around (carried inside, placed on the bed, carried down stairs, etc) during the time she left the White's and was KNOWN to be alive, and placed in the WC, there would be MORE THAN ONE livor pattern. There was ONLY ONE. She died within 20 minutes of being placed on her back in the WC.
These different theories are certainly valid as far as the thought behind them, but science really isn't variable. The forensic findings can't be made to fit a theory, so the theories have to fit the forensics.
BR said she walked in. I think he is telling the truth. Actually, I can't think of a comment BR made that was shown to be a lie- that's the thing. He wasn't questioned about his specific role because he wasn't ALLOWED to be. Under Colorado law, LE couldn't even ACCUSE him of taking part in this crime.

If she was dead and her body moved around (carried inside, placed on the bed, carried down stairs, etc) during the time she left the White's and was KNOWN to be alive, and placed in the WC, there would be MORE THAN ONE livor pattern. There was ONLY ONE. She died within 20 minutes of being placed on her back in the WC.

my bold

There's a problem with this theory DD. She wasn't found (by the coroner) in the WC, but under the Christmas tree, and she had been moved twice since discovery. There is no reason she also could not have been moved BEFORE either, provided it was AFTER rigor mortis was fully developed, if she was placed again in the same position on her back. Theoretically, she could have been killed anywhere (inside or outside the house) and her body moved to the WC after rigor had set in.

 

[DeeDee249]

my bold

There's a problem with this theory DD. She wasn't found (by the coroner) in the WC, but under the Christmas tree, and she had been moved twice since discovery. There is no reason she also could not have been moved BEFORE either, provided it was AFTER rigor mortis was fully developed, if she was placed again in the same position on her back. Theoretically, she could have been killed anywhere (inside or outside the house) and her body moved to the WC after rigor had set in.

It isn't rigor that is the problem. It is LIVOR mortis. If she had been moved more than once in the early stages, there would be multiple livor patterns There was only ONE. That's not me saying it. That's the coroner. Now let me say that she could have been moved AFTER livor became "fixed" but that would have been after people were already at the house.
Livor begins MUCH sooner than rigor. And lasts till decomp and exsanguination. (the blood leaves the body because the vessels deteriorate).
Theoretically, JR could have moved her during his "disappearance" that morning (where he really never left the house). By then, livor might have been "fixed". All we do know is that by the time of the autopsy, about 32 hours after her death, livor mortis WAS fixed at that point, as the coroner mentioned it.

Try to imagine this: you are carrying a clear tupperware bowl of red jello. As it sits on the counter it makes a "ring" around the inside of the bowl. If you pick it up and jostle it, it will make another ring or stain wherever it sloshed the sides of the bowl. The colored area will remain because the red color stains, and the liquid is somewhat viscous. Each time you jostle the bowl, another "splash mark" happens. But at some point, the jello will "set" and even if you move the bowl again, the liquid isn't liquid enough to move around any more. That is what happens to blood after death. It "gels" and doesn't move around the body, even if the body is moved. That's what happened here. JB was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, and LEFT there until her blood gelled. I do believe she may have been further back, deeper into the WC and that is why FW didn't see her. Then, JR could have moved her closer to the door (and the ambient light from the hall outside the WC).

 

[MurriFlower]

It isn't rigor that is the problem. It is LIVOR mortis. If she had been moved more than once in the early stages, there would be multiple livor patterns There was only ONE. That's not me saying it. That's the coroner. Now let me say that she could have been moved AFTER livor became "fixed" but that would have been after people were already at the house.
Livor begins MUCH sooner than rigor. And lasts till decomp and exsanguination. (the blood leaves the body because the vessels deteriorate).
Theoretically, JR could have moved her during his "disappearance" that morning (where he really never left the house). By then, livor might have been "fixed". All we do know is that by the time of the autopsy, about 32 hours after her death, livor mortis WAS fixed at that point, as the coroner mentioned it.

Try to imagine this: you are carrying a clear tupperware bowl of red jello. As it sits on the counter it makes a "ring" around the inside of the bowl. If you pick it up and jostle it, it will make another ring or stain wherever it sloshed the sides of the bowl. The colored area will remain because the red color stains, and the liquid is somewhat viscous. Each time you jostle the bowl, another "splash mark" happens. But at some point, the jello will "set" and even if you move the bowl again, the liquid isn't liquid enough to move around any more. That is what happens to blood after death. It "gels" and doesn't move around the body, even if the body is moved. That's what happened here. JB was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, and LEFT there until her blood gelled. I do believe she may have been further back, deeper into the WC and that is why FW didn't see her. Then, JR could have moved her closer to the door (and the ambient light from the hall outside the WC).

Ok, perhaps I should have said LIVOR rather than RIGOR, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert. However, the point I was trying to make was that at some point the body is 'set' so it could then have been moved numerous times, without the ME being able to detect it. This is further complicated by the fact that he KNEW FOR SURE she was moved twice. I was thinking about Stephen Singular's suggestion that she was killed elsewhere and returned to the house. Eventhough it sounds far fetched, it is theoretically possible, just as it is possible that she was killed elsewhere in the house. The only 'evidence' that indicates a possible location (urine stain on the basement carpet) is only supposition.

 

[DeeDee249]

Ok, perhaps I should have said LIVOR rather than RIGOR, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert. However, the point I was trying to make was that at some point the body is 'set' so it could then have been moved numerous times, without the ME being able to detect it. This is further complicated by the fact that he KNEW FOR SURE she was moved twice. I was thinking about Stephen Singular's suggestion that she was killed elsewhere and returned to the house. Eventhough it sounds far fetched, it is theoretically possible, just as it is possible that she was killed elsewhere in the house. The only 'evidence' that indicates a possible location (urine stain on the basement carpet) is only supposition.

If she had been killed elsewhere, she'd have had to be placed on her back in the WC, head cocked to the right (and then frozen by rigor) REAL SOON after death, because her ONLY livor pattern corresponds to exactly how she was found in the WC. While he coroner certainly knew she was moved twice (from basement to foyer and from foyer to living room under the tree), she was already in full rigor and the fixed stage or livor by the time that happened. I can't see her having been killed elsewhere because the first livor pattern to form (within 20 minutes or so of death) would rarely coincide with the position she was found in so exactly. And if the killers had to wait for livor to become fixed, they could have bumped into the police, FBI, and the R breakfast club on the way out.

 

[wonderllama]

Pardon the crudity, but she's sounding like a chess piece.

 

[joeskidbeck]

It isn't rigor that is the problem. It is LIVOR mortis. If she had been moved more than once in the early stages, there would be multiple livor patterns There was only ONE. That's not me saying it. That's the coroner. Now let me say that she could have been moved AFTER livor became "fixed" but that would have been after people were already at the house.
Livor begins MUCH sooner than rigor. And lasts till decomp and exsanguination. (the blood leaves the body because the vessels deteriorate).
Theoretically, JR could have moved her during his "disappearance" that morning (where he really never left the house). By then, livor might have been "fixed". All we do know is that by the time of the autopsy, about 32 hours after her death, livor mortis WAS fixed at that point, as the coroner mentioned it.

Try to imagine this: you are carrying a clear tupperware bowl of red jello. As it sits on the counter it makes a "ring" around the inside of the bowl. If you pick it up and jostle it, it will make another ring or stain wherever it sloshed the sides of the bowl. The colored area will remain because the red color stains, and the liquid is somewhat viscous. Each time you jostle the bowl, another "splash mark" happens. But at some point, the jello will "set" and even if you move the bowl again, the liquid isn't liquid enough to move around any more. That is what happens to blood after death. It "gels" and doesn't move around the body, even if the body is moved. That's what happened here. JB was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, and LEFT there until her blood gelled. I do believe she may have been further back, deeper into the WC and that is why FW didn't see her. Then, JR could have moved her closer to the door (and the ambient light from the hall outside the WC).

Really good analogy, DeeDee. You always explain things so well and I, for one, am very grateful.

 

[Toltec]

I too thank you for that analogy...I understand liver and rigor mortis now, LOL!

Dr. Lee had asked LE if they had found the corresponding urine stains from JonBenet's panties and longjohns...and I wonder if it is fact that urine stains were found next to the wine cellar.

 

[DeeDee249]

I too thank you for that analogy...I understand liver and rigor mortis now, LOL!

Dr. Lee had asked LE if they had found the corresponding urine stains from JonBenet's panties and longjohns...and I wonder if it is fact that urine stains were found next to the wine cellar.

I believe it was urine that was found in the carpeted area outside the WC. It's actually creatinine, which is what is left when urine has dried.

 

[wonderllama]

I know people constantly produce urine, so there's a couple of things I'd like to ask.
And I'll preface my question by saying that I am not sure on the quantity of urine which would have been responsible for the creatinine on the carpet outside the WC.

There are certain things that may cause someone to wet themselves in my books.
1. Getting a fright
2. Nightmare/sleep related wetting
3. Death
4. General incontinence issues.

Are we able to rule all these out with JBR?
I mean clearly she died, so #3 occurred, and one would expect to find it on her body and thus her undergarments.

I mean, one of the theories from RDI/Steve Thomas was that this was a rage related murder relating to JBR wetting the bed. So, there should have been fresh urine stains on the bed/bed clothes.

So now two locations. Wet bed, and where she died.

Now the neighbour heard a scream. A scream loud enough to be heard across the street which implies two things. Firstly, she saw it coming (assuming it was something thrusting something at her) and two, it wasn't a "ooh look, an icky spider" type scream. This was serious scream.

So I guess my questions are, and I do tend to ramble in my longer posts as it's my thought process, if the bed has been wet and she heads down stairs on her own only to get clocked on the head then moved into the WC, there should be 3 urine sites. No?

Are there definitely 3 urine sites?

I think I had another question here but I got distracted by work - d'oh.

 

[DeeDee249]

We know that there was dried urine (creatinine) on her sheets. They tested positive. LHP has said that the sheets shown on her bed (Beauty & The Beast) were not the sheets she had put on the bed when she was last there on Dec. 23. Presumably, JB wet the bed the night of the 23rd, and Patsy had to put clean sheets on herself, but Patsy did NOT go to the basement to get the white blanket from the dryer, where LHP always washed and dried it because it didn't fit in the smaller set near JB's room. Instead, she just put the sheets on the bed and the bedspread, leaving the blanket in the basement dryer for LHP to put back on the bed when she came to clean after Christmas. This was something only the family and LHP knew (that the white blanket was always laundered in the basement), so the fact that it was used to wrap JB's body is pretty suspicious if you're trying to pin this on an intruder. The police thought so too, as they attempt in an interview to PULL out of Patsy an admission that JB's bed in the above photo obviously does not have a blanket under the spread and as the bottom of the spread os still perfectly tidy, no blanket was pulled off that bed either. Patsy kind of half-heartedly admits this. LE knew exactly what point they were trying to get across. (that the bed had no blanket so no intruder pulled her from her bed wrapped in her blanket- the wrapping came later- after her death- with her blanket that had been pulled from the basement dryer). And Patsy also knew exactly what they meant. She does her best R dance, but at the end has to "kinda" say that, no, the bed doesn't look like a blanket is on there or had been pulled off.
So that puts urine in 2 places so far- the bedsheets, the basement carpet. There may also be stains on the carpet in JB's room- in some photos, you can see the small rectangular piece that was cut from the carpet. I believe they did find urine there, but can't be positive. That would make 3 places.
Personally, I believe the final urine release occurred at death, on her stomach on the basement carpet outside the WC. This could have happened even if she had wet the bed earlier that night.
I don't think we can rule out ANY of the reasons listed in the above post.

 

[celticthyme]

Recently I have been reading on some of the other forums, and came upon a discussion about the possibility that, because of her arm position, that she may have been tied upright by her wrists. When she actually was taken down, her arms had to stay in that position due to rigor. I had never thought of that, but did wonder why her arms were above her head. If that could have happened, wondering if the urine stains could still be in the front. To me, the wrist ties do not look strong enough to have held her. I do agree, her bladder emptied at the time of her death.