this is my opinion of course

[Jayelles]

How do you suppose a jeans button got pressed onto her neck? Are you absolutely sure it's the neck mark they are referring to? One of the other abrasions (the one on the side of her face) has a "boat-shaped" mark in it - this was noted by one of the forensic experts who commented on the case. We discussed it here a few months ago and the thread might still be here. If I can find it, I shall bump it up for you.

 

[Ivy]

http://www.acandyrose.com/10042002-48hrs.htm

Excerpt:

Program showing Erin Moriarty talking with forensic pathologist, Dr. Werner Spitz:

Erin Moriarty: "How sure are you that it's not a stun gun?"

Dr. Werner Spitz: "Well I'm a hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way."

Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Werner Spitz, a nationally known pathologist who has worked on major cases including the assassination of J.F. Kennedy."

(Program showing photos of the stun gunned pig and marks on JonBenet)

Erin Moriarty: "This was now on her and this was done on a pig skin."

Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the one that JonBenet has? They don't look like that to me at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns."

Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenet's face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing"

Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans for instance. If you look at this one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnifying glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries."

 

[BlueCrab]

http://www.acandyrose.com/10042002-48hrs.htm



Erin Moriarty: "How sure are you that it's not a stun gun?"

Dr. Werner Spitz: "Well I'm a hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way.

"A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns.

"If you look at it closely with a magnifying glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries."[/b]

Where is it documented that Dr. Werner Spitz is an expert on stun gun injuries? Or has he even had ANY experience in identifying stun gun injuries? I think he's flying by the seat of his pants.

Spitz, after looking at autopsy pictures of the injuries, says the injuries were likely caused by stones on the floor and a button on blue jeans, and supports that by saying the imprint of a boat can be seen in the injury on JonBenet's face.

Hell, I can look up into the sky and see the shape of a boat in the clouds on almost any day of the week.

All stun gun injuries are burns, and sometimes they are associated with abrasions. And they all look different from each other. Dr. John Meyer, the only pathologist who examined the injuries on the body, at first called the injuries abrasions, but later changed that to say they were consistent with stun gun injuries.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

Werner Spitz has been a forensic pathologist for almost 50 years, BC. Here's a short bio on him.

http://www.cnn.com/LAW/greta.at.law/spitz.7.11/moreonthistopic.html
Dr. Werner Spitz is currently the medical examiner for Macomb County, Michigan, as well as a professor of pathology at Wayne State University School of Medicine and an adjunct professor of toxicology at the University of Windsor, Canada. He received his training at the Geneva University Medical School in Switzerland and the Hebrew University Hadassa Medical School in Jerusalem, Israel. He is the author of 90 scientific publications and the author of a textbook, Medicolegal Investigation of Death.

I believe Dr. Spitz is more qualified than Smit--or even Dobersen--to make stun gun determinations. By the way, he didn't look at the clouds and see a boat-shaped structure. He used a magnifying glass and examined the autopsy photo showing the mark in question, and noticed a boat-shaped structure within it.

Dobersen admitted that to make a determination as to whether any of the marks on JonBenet's body were made by a stun gun, examining the tissue would be necessary. It's too late now, so we'll never know for certain if a stun gun was used on JonBenet.

imo

 

[BlueCrab]

Werner Spitz has been a forensic pathologist for almost 50 years, BC. Here's a short bio on him.

http://www.cnn.com/LAW/greta.at.law/spitz.7.11/moreonthistopic.html
Dr. Werner Spitz is currently the medical examiner for Macomb County, Michigan, as well as a professor of pathology at Wayne State University School of Medicine and an adjunct professor of toxicology at the University of Windsor, Canada. He received his training at the Geneva University Medical School in Switzerland and the Hebrew University Hadassa Medical School in Jerusalem, Israel. He is the author of 90 scientific publications and the author of a textbook, Medicolegal Investigation of Death.

I believe Dr. Spitz is more qualified than Smit--or even Dobersen--to make stun gun determinations. By the way, he didn't look at the clouds and see a boat-shaped structure. He used a magnifying glass and examined the autopsy photo showing the mark in question, and noticed a boat-shaped structure within it.

Dobersen admitted that to make a determination as to whether any of the marks on JonBenet's body were made by a stun gun, examining the tissue would be necessary. It's too late now, so we'll never know for certain if a stun gun was used on JonBenet.

imo

Ivy,

Medical practitioners have very little to no experience with stun gun injuries. Most doctors, including pathologists, wouldn't know what a stun gun injury looked like. There are only a few experts in the field.

I have a friend who's been an emergency room physician for about 15 years in a large hospital. Last year I asked him how many stun gun injuries he's ever treated, and he said none. (That's not to say he could have treated them but didn't know the cause of the injury.)

I think Spitz was winging it.

JMO

 

[Ivy]

BC, in a way, everyone is winging it, including Smit and Dobersen. No determination is possible without examining the tissue, and as you pointed out some time ago in one of your posts, there's surely nothing left now to examine.

The stun gun idea doesn't bother me much unless someone uses it as "evidence" of an intruder, but I still don't buy it.

imo

 

[BlueCrab]

BC, in a way, everyone is winging it, including Smit and Dobersen. No determination is possible without examining the tissue, and as you pointed out some time ago in one of your posts, there's surely nothing left now to examine.

The stun gun idea doesn't bother me much unless someone uses it as "evidence" of an intruder, but I still don't buy it.

imo

One reason I try to keep the stun gun theory alive is because there's a remote possibility a stun gun could have been the murder weapon. The large injury on the right side of JonBenet's face near the ear, if a stun gun injury, could have been from a prolonged stun gun hit (such as 10 seconds or more) that paralyzed her respiratory muscles and killed her by asphyxia.

JMO

 

[why_nutt]

One reason I try to keep the stun gun theory alive is because there's a remote possibility a stun gun could have been the murder weapon. The large injury on the right side of JonBenet's face near the ear, if a stun gun injury, could have been from a prolonged stun gun hit (such as 10 seconds or more) that paralyzed her respiratory muscles and killed her by asphyxia.

JMO

Actually, no. A stun gun works by paralyzing the muscles of the body, but in order to create the largest electrical circuit through the body, the circuit must begin and end in the largest muscles, which is why all stun gun manufacturers recommend that the torso and its muscles be favored as a target. A person's face is extremely ineffective as a stun gun target, as would be a person's feet or wrists, because the muscles of the jaw and face are very small, and it is difficult to get a circuit going out of one probe of the stun gun, through the muscles of the jaw, down through the neck, into the torso, legs and arms, and then back up through the legs, arms, torso and neck and into the face again to complete the circuit by closing it via the other stun gun probe. There is simply too much electrical resistance involved. Remember, a stun gun is essentially a gun-shaped switch. You turn it on, and it tries to complete a circuit. In accord with electrical theory, it will do this by taking the shortest path possible. If a stun gun is applied to the face, all it will be likely to do is cause the facial muscles to contract. The circuit would have no need to expend extra effort in traveling down to the muscles of the chest wall and paralyzing them.

 

[Shylock]

The large injury on the right side of JonBenet's face near the ear, if a stun gun injury, could have been from a prolonged stun gun hit (such as 10 seconds or more) that paralyzed her respiratory muscles and killed her by asphyxia.

There is no way the mark on JB's face was made by a stun gun. There is ONLY ONE MARK. And there is no such thing as a stun gun with a single probe. Furthermore, the RST/Swamp theory that the second probe was on top of the tape is a joke. The tape would have insulated the electrical current, and there is no evidence of ANYTHING of that nature on the piece of tape.

The tape would have been the BEST indicator of stun gun use because it would have melted or at the very least charred from the electrical discharge. Ask any electrician what electrical tape charred from high voltage looks like, they've all seen it.

 

[Shylock]

Dr. John Meyer, the only pathologist who examined the injuries on the body, at first called the injuries abrasions, but later changed that to say they were consistent with stun gun injuries.

Meyer said "Anything is possible". Meyer would have given the same answer if someone asked him if a meat-fork had made the marks on her back.

 

[BlueCrab]

Meyer said "Anything is possible". Meyer would have given the same answer if someone asked him if a meat-fork had made the marks on her back.

Page 431, PMPT pb:

"Smit and Steve Ainsworth were still investigating the possible use of a stun gun. By now they had learned that Air Tasers were sold locally by Boulder Security, and that another stun gun, called the Muscle Man, had the same characteristics as the Air Taser.

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sgt. Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun.

"Soon after, Ainsworth learned of a 1988 Larimer County murder in which a stun gun had been used on a thirteen-month-old girl, Michaela Hughes, who had been sexually assaulted and killed. Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist on the case, and showed him the autopsy photos of JonBenet. Deters agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury, but he didn't think the body had to be exhumed. Nothing more would be learned by examining the skin tissue. Ainsworth asked Deters if a child of six would be immobilized by a stun gun's electrical shock. Not only would the child be paralyzed, the coroner said, but she would have been unable to scream."

JMO

 

[tipper]

There is no way the mark on JB's face was made by a stun gun. There is ONLY ONE MARK. And there is no such thing as a stun gun with a single probe. Furthermore, the RST/Swamp theory that the second probe was on top of the tape is a joke. The tape would have insulated the electrical current, and there is no evidence of ANYTHING of that nature on the piece of tape.

The tape would have been the BEST indicator of stun gun use because it would have melted or at the very least charred from the electrical discharge. Ask any electrician what electrical tape charred from high voltage looks like, they've all seen it.

OT but wouldn't a stun gun with a single probe be like a cattle prod?

 

[Shylock]

OT but wouldn't a stun gun with a single probe be like a cattle prod?

Cattle prods also have a two electrodes: http://www.hotshotproducts.com/hs2000.htm

 

[tipper]

Cattle prods also have a two electrodes: http://www.hotshotproducts.com/hs2000.htm

That's interesting. The ones I remember looked like heavy flashlights with a single silver button at the business end. But, of course, that was 40+ years ago. Couldn't find any pictures though I did learn that Google offers up some very 'interesting' sites in response to an image search for cattle prod.

 

[Ivy]

As far as the investigation goes, what difference does it make whether a stun gun was used on JonBenet? If one was, a Ramsey could have used it just as well as an intruder, especially if BlueCrab's fifth person theory is true. If one wasn't, it doesn't prove or disprove IDI or RDI either.

imo

 

[SisterSocks]

Does anyone know if the Mother of the child was being treated for
Bipolar Disorder?


_______________
IMO

Of course NOT!!!!! Patsy didn't have mental problems until after Jon Benet Died ...... She had Panic Attacks and took Adivan to help, also she took Paxil for depression.


SistetSocks

 

[ICU]

Where is it documented that Dr. Werner Spitz is an expert on stun gun injuries? Or has he even had ANY experience in identifying stun gun injuries? I think he's flying by the seat of his pants.

Spitz, after looking at autopsy pictures of the injuries, says the injuries were likely caused by stones on the floor and a button on blue jeans, and supports that by saying the imprint of a boat can be seen in the injury on JonBenet's face.

Hell, I can look up into the sky and see the shape of a boat in the clouds on almost any day of the week.

All stun gun injuries are burns, and sometimes they are associated with abrasions. And they all look different from each other. Dr. John Meyer, the only pathologist who examined the injuries on the body, at first called the injuries abrasions, but later changed that to say they were consistent with stun gun injuries.

JMO

Why would Pat or John use a stun gun?

____________________________________________________
”He who angers you, controls you!” (unknown author)
IMO

 

[ICU]

Actually, no. A stun gun works by paralyzing the muscles of the body, but in order to create the largest electrical circuit through the body, the circuit must begin and end in the largest muscles, which is why all stun gun manufacturers recommend that the torso and its muscles be favored as a target. A person's face is extremely ineffective as a stun gun target, as would be a person's feet or wrists, because the muscles of the jaw and face are very small, and it is difficult to get a circuit going out of one probe of the stun gun, through the muscles of the jaw, down through the neck, into the torso, legs and arms, and then back up through the legs, arms, torso and neck and into the face again to complete the circuit by closing it via the other stun gun probe. There is simply too much electrical resistance involved. Remember, a stun gun is essentially a gun-shaped switch. You turn it on, and it tries to complete a circuit. In accord with electrical theory, it will do this by taking the shortest path possible. If a stun gun is applied to the face, all it will be likely to do is cause the facial muscles to contract. The circuit would have no need to expend extra effort in traveling down to the muscles of the chest wall and paralyzing them.

Would the stun gun leave a boat like image on the wound?

____________________________________________________
”He who angers you, controls you!” (unknown author)
IMO

 

[ICU]

Of course NOT!!!!! Patsy didn't have mental problems until after Jon Benet Died ...... She had Panic Attacks and took Adivan to help, also she took Paxil for depression.


SistetSocks

That is interesting. Most cases that I have read or heard about, when the mother kills her kids, they try to make up some story of kidnapping or intruder story, something simple so not to get confused when questioned. The Ramsey case has too many complexities to it. If she were manic depression, would she be able to plan what she did?

____________________________________________________
”He who angers you, controls you!” (unknown author)
IMO

 

[ICU]

How do you suppose a jeans button got pressed onto her neck? Are you absolutely sure it's the neck mark they are referring to? One of the other abrasions (the one on the side of her face) has a "boat-shaped" mark in it - this was noted by one of the forensic experts who commented on the case. We discussed it here a few months ago and the thread might still be here. If I can find it, I shall bump it up for you.

I was suggesting the type of button, something like a denim button made of metal with an imprint on it, that could leave a mark when used to strike someone with. The person may have taken off the glove and hit her with it leaving the mark on her neck. For a pedophile ring that would be good filming.

____________________________________________________
”He who angers you, controls you!” (unknown author)
IMO