"This me when I was first born. That's my Mom and the doctor."

[OliviaG1996]

If Burke intentionally hit JonBenet with the golf club as you claim, then why wasn't her injury more extensive and severe? Why wasn't her cheekbone crushed? Why wasn't her leg broken?

1. We don't know if any bones were broken. I'm not going to take PR's word that everything was fine and dandy. Access to JBR's and BR's medical records are sealed, remember?

2. Just because I think he hit her intentionally with the golf club doesn't mean I think he hit her out of anger. He could've just been smacking her around with the golf club to see how she would react.

Most children when they swing a golf club do so rather clumsily and, due to the momentum, will often swing their whole body around. But if you want to think that Burke kept his body perfectly still like some mini-Arnold Palmer, then go right ahead.

I don't think BR was practicing his golf swing like PR claims. I think he was playing around with it as children would and that does not constitute keeping his body perfectly still.

 

[Backwoods]

BOESP,
Strange weather over here, its like its September, with autumn just arriving as the leaves fall off the trees, must be that global warming effect?

I guess medical assistance would have been at the front of the adults mind, but possibly JonBenet might have been taking seizures, or/and unresponsive to touch and vocal requests?

Whichever R was responsable, they knew they had to stage a crime-scene, even if that person was beneath the age of criminal responsibility, since this might deflect any blame?

One of those R's was protected and a crime-scene fabricated so reasonable doubt could be generated. Have you considered the R's thought JonBenet was dead or near deaths door when they reached her?

If the case had been PDI, I reckon Kolar would have dropped more hints in that direction and backed up some of Steve Thomas' theories, I doubt Kolar would have been sued over this since he could claim the subject was already in the public domain.


That Kolar thinks the ligature asphyxiation was not staging and part of the overall assault on JonBenet must mean once person did it all, except for the wine-cellar staging, and that changes my perspective completely.

.

bbm: Wasn't Kolar in fact, at one point, a PDI man himself? Seems I have read so -- know some of you longtimers will know. If so, wonder what changed his mind., something specific or the totality or what? I've not read his book yet; maybe he goes into it.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I doubt a child would include the word "first" in the sentence ... By using that word, it speaks of a higher grammatical knowledge, IMO.

I would think a child may write the sentence by omitting the word "first" & still feel the message is being effectively conveyed (which it is). Adding "first" is adult-speak.

 

[BOESP]

bbm: Wasn't Kolar in fact, at one point, a PDI man himself? Seems I have read so -- know some of you longtimers will know. If so, wonder what changed his mind., something specific or the totality or what? I've not read his book yet; maybe he goes into it.

I've not read that Kolar was ever PDI but Steve Thomas was and maybe still is.

Would love to read comments showing Kolar was at one time PDI.

 

[UKGuy]

bbm: Wasn't Kolar in fact, at one point, a PDI man himself? Seems I have read so -- know some of you longtimers will know. If so, wonder what changed his mind., something specific or the totality or what? I've not read his book yet; maybe he goes into it.

Backwoods,
Years ago PDI was the prevailing theory with JDI as a backup, on the notion one of the parents did it.

If you examine either PDI or JDI critically both theories have large holes in them, unexplainables that are usually glossed over, i.e. whilst popular they are both inconsistent.

This led me to consider BDI, which offers an account for the lattter unexplainables, and is largely consistent with the available forensic evidence, i.e. the parents staged the wine-cellar crime-scene, offering both a motive to collude.

So although BDI is the most consistent theory, this does not mean its a done deal, there might be some forensic evidence relating to the parents we are unaware of, so it could still be PDI or JDI.

It was Kolar's review of the forensic evidence that allowed him to consider which R was the most likeliest to have killed JonBenet. In his book its mostly revealed by implication, there is no direct naming, but everyone who reads the book knows who he his implicating.

He seems to think JonBenet's killer was acting out some kind of pathology, one that drove this person to both manualy and ligature asphyxiate JonBenet, resulting in her death.

You should borrow or purchase the book its a good read!

.

 

[andreww]

If Burke intentionally hit JonBenet with the golf club as you claim, then why wasn't her injury more extensive and severe? Why wasn't her cheekbone crushed? Why wasn't her leg broken?

Most children when they swing a golf club do so rather clumsily and, due to the momentum, will often swing their whole body around. But if you want to think that Burke kept his body perfectly still like some mini-Arnold Palmer, then go right ahead.

When a kid hits something in their backswing, they would stop. You are stopped anyway at the transition from the backswing to the swing.

And as to the extent of the injuries, when I was JBRs age a kid who was slightly older purposely hit me in the head with a brick. I needed a few stitches but had no severe injuries.

All I'm saying is that I grew up playing all sports and many many times I saw kids hit with golf clubs, hockey sticks, baseball bats, etc., and not once have I ever seen someone hit twice in the same swing.

But let me say this, there is very little that Patsy Ramsey says that I take as being the truth. So not only do I not believe that Burke accidentally hit her twice with a golf club, I have trouble believing it was even a golf club.


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[icedtea4me]

When a kid hits something in their backswing, they would stop. You are stopped anyway at the transition from the backswing to the swing.*snip*

Oh, I see. So, to you, it would have been 100% physically impossible for Burke to have hit her during the backswing, stopped, lowered his club, swung around to see what had happened and, in the process, accidentally whack her on her leg. Gotcha.

 

[andreww]

Oh, I see. So, to you, it would have been 100% physically impossible for Burke to have hit her during the backswing, stopped, lowered his club, swung around to see what had happened and, in the process, accidentally whack her on her leg. Gotcha.

Yes it would have. If she was hit with the backswing hard enough that doctors said she might require plastic surgery, two things would have happened;

1- Burke would have stopped his backswing and turned to look what he hit.

2- JBR would likely have fallen to the ground making it impossible for her to be hit with the follow through.

And again, have you ever played golf?? Do you understand the mechanics of a swing? I can tell you that a backswing will always be high (about head height). A follow through will finish high as well as a swing, whether from a child, adult, pro or amateur, is essentially an arc. Children and amateurs have a tendency to do one of three things with their follow through. The either stub the club into the ground shortly before or after impacting the ball, they will finish with the club high and in font as they haven't developed a body turn at the waste, or for those that have had lessons a high finish behind with the club ending up where it had stopped in the backswing.

It is almost impossible and would be an extremely unnatural movement to backswing and hit her in the head, continue in a half arc down to the ball then break that arc and continue the swing low around his back.

I concede that there is always the possibility that Burke wasn't actually practicing his golf swing a was simply swinging the club around wildly as kids have a tendency to do, but that would be getting away from what Patsy actually said happened wouldn't it?


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[icedtea4me]

Yes it would have. If she was hit with the backswing hard enough that doctors said she might require plastic surgery, two things would have happened;

1- Burke would have stopped his backswing and turned to look what he hit.

2- JBR would likely have fallen to the ground making it impossible for her to be hit with the follow through.

And again, have you ever played golf?? Do you understand the mechanics of a swing? I can tell you that a backswing will always be high (about head height). A follow through will finish high as well as a swing, whether from a child, adult, pro or amateur, is essentially an arc. Children and amateurs have a tendency to do one of three things with their follow through. The either stub the club into the ground shortly before or after impacting the ball, they will finish with the club high and in font as they haven't developed a body turn at the waste, or for those that have had lessons a high finish behind with the club ending up where it had stopped in the backswing.

It is almost impossible and would be an extremely unnatural movement to backswing and hit her in the head, continue in a half arc down to the ball then break that arc and continue the swing low around his back.

I concede that there is always the possibility that Burke wasn't actually practicing his golf swing a was simply swinging the club around wildly as kids have a tendency to do, but that would be getting away from what Patsy actually said happened wouldn't it?


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*Lets loose with a primal scream.*

Burke swings his club back. JonBenet is struck in the face. He lowers his club down by his leg. He spins around with the club to see what happened and whacks her on the leg.

What the f*cking hell is so difficult to understand about that?

 

[icedtea4me]

When a kid hits something in their backswing, they would stop. You are stopped anyway at the transition from the backswing to the swing.

And as to the extent of the injuries, when I was JBRs age a kid who was slightly older purposely hit me in the head with a brick. I needed a few stitches but had no severe injuries.

All I'm saying is that I grew up playing all sports and many many times I saw kids hit with golf clubs, hockey sticks, baseball bats, etc., and not once have I ever seen someone hit twice in the same swing.

But let me say this, there is very little that Patsy Ramsey says that I take as being the truth. So not only do I not believe that Burke accidentally hit her twice with a golf club, I have trouble believing it was even a golf club.


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[snotty voice on]Oh, so what do you think it was? A sledge hammer?[/snotty voice off]

 

[andreww]

[snotty voice on]Oh, so what do you think it was? A sledge hammer?[/snotty voice off]

Kind of like people that use snotty tones, I have no use for people that repeatedly lie. All I'm saying is I don't and never will believe a word that comes out of that woman's mouth. As for you, enough of my time has been wasted. Go be snotty with someone else.


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[otg]

That is if you believe that is what actually happened. Go ahead and read Patsy's account of that incident (I believe it is in the first interview). You will not that she wasn't questioned further about it, but she says that Jonbenet suffered injuries to both her head and leg. How is that possible if it were an accident? I JB was standing behind him and was hit in the head with a backswing, then the only possible way she could be hit a second time would be with the follow through. But a golf swing follow through finishes high with the club over your back. How could she have possibly receive both a head and leg injury with one mistaken swing? She couldn't have. I believe it is highly likely Patsy is lying here, but why? The only possible conclusions here are:

- Burke hit JB more than once with the club.

- At least one of those blows was intentional.

- Patsy lied to cover up Burkes behavior.

I didn’t recall hearing about there being two injuries to JonBenet in the same incident, so when I saw this discussion about it I was a little perplexed. I had to go back and read the interviews to see where the idea came from. This incident came up in two different interviews. It came up first in the April, 1997, interview when Patsy was being questioned about any of JonBenet’s past illnesses and injuries. Here’s the conversation (bbm):

TT: How was JonBenet’s health in general?
PR: Good, I’d say good.
TT: Okay. Any major illnesses at all?
PR: Well, when she was little she had, I think the doctor diagnosed it as pneumonia, but we had Finalin drops, kind of stuff that we made a humidifier kind of thing that I held under her nose and…
TT: Was she hospitalized any at all?
PR: No.
TT: Just a quick trip to the office and that was it?
PR: Yeah.
TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?
PR: She, Burke hit her in the face with a gulf (sp) club one time, and the leg…
TT: Ay (sp) stitches or anything like that?
PR: No, it was just kind of a skin abrasion, she had a little scar, a little teensy little scar there, but it just kind of squashed the skin up and something to stitch it. She had a black eye, and…
TT: The 25th, during the day of the 25th, do you recall seeing any injuries on JonBenet? Any scratches, abrasions, cuts, bruises, or anything like that?
PR: I don’t remember, but she was always getting bruised, you know. Kids just, I don’t remember anything.
​

It’s a pity Tom Trujillo didn’t give her a chance to finish -- twice he interrupted her while she was trying to tell more. But she was questioned about it in more detail in her June, 1998, interview (bbm):

24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
25 mention while we are talking about that, there
0294
1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
5 about that?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
9 it was our first summer there, how young they
10 were there.
11 THOMAS HANEY: About what year
12 would that have been?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
18 murder.
19 And I jumped down off the porch and
20 grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I
21 thought he got her in the eye, and went down
22 there to the emergency room and, you know, the
23 doctor looked and it was just, you know, that
24 socket around your eye, protects your eye there,
25 so she had a good old black eye for a while.
0295
1 She had a little, I don't remember which eye it
2 was, little abrasion. I took her to a plastic
3 surgeon just to see if there was anything to do
4 to help there. He said it will go away. You
5 know.
6 THOMAS HANEY: So that was just an
7 accidental --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You know, he
9 wasn't used to looking around and she walked
10 right up behind him, so --
11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
12 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was the
13 doctor?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, somebody there
15 at the emergency room in Charlevoix.
​

Knowing no more about the incident than this, I don’t think we’ll be able to settle it for sure. But I think the mention of a leg injury that Patsy brought up in 1997 was a separate injury, not something that happened at the same time as the cheek abrasion. Likewise, while we can speculate on Burke’s intent (or lack of) I don’t think we’ll ever know whether it was deliberate or simply as offered -- an unfortunate accident. With all the uncertainty about this, I think it’s kind of a stretch to assign much more to it than this. But that’s just MHO. As they say, YMMV.

 

[icedtea4me]

Yes it would have. If she was hit with the backswing hard enough that doctors said she might require plastic surgery, two things would have happened;*snip*

0295
1 She had a little, I don't remember which eye it
2 was, little abrasion. I took her to a plastic
3 surgeon just to see if there was anything to do
4 to help there. He said it will go away. You
5 know.

What were you saying about doctors recommending plastic surgery?