Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo

[Buzz Mills]

Tiger Attack Survivors Not Cooperating With Police

POSTED: 12:08 pm PST December 28, 2007


SAN FRANCISCO -- Reports are surfacing that Paul and Kulbir Dhaliwal, the two brothers who survived the Christmas day tiger attack at the San Francisco Zoo, have been less than cooperative with the SFPD as the investigation into the attack continues.

Authorities say Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23, initially refused to give their own names or identify Carlos Sousa Jr. as the other attack victim. They also would not give an account of what had happened at the zoo to police.

During interviews with media Thursday, Sousa Jr.'s father also revealed that he had called the younger Dhaliwal brother while trying to figure out why his son hadn't been at Christmas dinner. Even though the call occurred when the 17-year-old Sousa Jr. would either have been en route or actually at the San Francisco Zoo with the brothers, Paul Dhaliwal told Carlos Sousa Sr. that he had not seen his son.

The brothers remain at San Francisco General Hospital recovering from severe bite and claw wounds. Their names were provided by hospital and law enforcement sources who spoke on condition of anonymity because the family had not yet given permission to release their names.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14940180/detail.html?rss=fran&psp=news

 

[LisainWV]

i side 100% with the animals here. if an innocent person were killed i might feel sorry for them... but if it's true the moron was actually tauntung the tiger?? then he deserved what he got. it's always sickening to hear about wild animals that put on display in zoos or forced to perform in circuses and then one day they snap and can't take it anymore,, and then THEY get shot and killed!! how tragic,, and this to me just shows the ignorance and idiocy of humans. if i was locked up in a cage (or, a limited enclosure, not in a natural environment) my whole life and gawked at by thousands of loud, hyper, overly-excited, screaming children every day of my life i'd go ballistic the first chance i got, too. i absolutely DESPISE zoos.. the few i have been too, i am always terribly upset and disturbed by the neurotic and desperate behavior of the animals. many of the animals pace endlessly and they are obviously so distresed, looking everywhere for a way out of their enclosure. it's so cruel and inhumane, i don't care how 'natural' they make the environment. but unfortunately we humans cannot control our breeding and we are squeezing wild animals out of their habitat all over the world, and some say that zoos are our only hope. i say--- curbing the HUMAN population is our only hope!!!

I'm trying to catch up on this thread, but had to comment on this. If you ever decide to run for President, I'm with you.

Amen to this post - I'm glad someone shares my thoughts exactly. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[browneyes]

I think it was wrong of the young men to taunt the tiger (if they in fact did), but I don't think anyone deserved to die or be hurt over it. And I am very saddened that the tiger had to die too.

It all falls on the zoo's shoulders...it is their responsibility to keep the public safe from the animals and vice versa.

 

[Nova]

From Buzz's link:

"I think it could be feasible for a cat that has been taunted or angered," Jack Hanna, former director of the Columbus Zoo, said Thursday. "I don't think it would ever just do it to do it."

The article goes on to say the police have no evidence of taunting.

A lot of the erroneous reports on this matter seem to be inspired (no doubt unwittingly) by Mr. Hanna. It was also he who speculated that a board could have been placed across the moat and used by the tiger to cross. The moat now appears to be 33-feet wide (a helluva board!) and there appears to be no other evidence that any such thing occurred.

Frankly, though Mr. Hanna may indeed be an expert on what a tiger is unlikely to do and what a tiger has not done thus far, I don't believe he can know what a tiger would never do.

Furthermore, while the article repeats claims that the survivors have been "uncooperative," it also quotes police summaries of what those same survivors have told them about the attacks. (The account of the dead boy's heroism comes from the brothers.)

So either the brothers were "uncooperative" at first (when they are reported to have refused to give their names), but became cooperative later, or the police are merely complaining that they have been insufficiently cooperative, a judgment that may be a matter of opinion.

 

[boody]

I'm sorry but these brothers sound like bad apples. Sounds like the only brave one (their buddy) died for it.

 

[LisainWV]

I think the problem(s) in this story are:

1. You can never predict how stupid a human being can be.

2. You can never predict the behavior of an animal (wild or "domestic").

That zoo could be open for a thousand more years, with no changes to the enclosure, and never have this happen again.

I just find it so tragic that tiger obviously was not comfortable with humans or just plain didn't like them, and she had no choice to stay away from them.

 

[Nova]

I think the problem(s) in this story are:

1. You can never predict how stupid a human being can be.

2. You can never predict the behavior of an animal (wild or "domestic").

That zoo could be open for a thousand more years, with no changes to the enclosure, and never have this happen again.

I just find it so tragic that tiger obviously was not comfortable with humans or just plain didn't like them, and she had no choice to stay away from them.

I completely agree with you (though the latest reports say the police have no evidence at this time of "stupid" human behavior).

But surely the zoo has an obligation to assume that humans will be stupid and wild animals will be wild. I'm not comfortable with a barrier a tiger can jump, even if her doing so is unusual.

 

[dark_shadows]

Buzz, this quote is from an employee of one of the photo booths across from the Terrrace Cafe,:""It's pitch black around here by 5 p.m.".

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/28/MNSKU5OFE.DTL

Dearest LinasK,:blowkiss:
You are correct about it being dark out. One of the links posted when the story first came out stated that Officers had to hurry and set up floodlights when they first arrived on the scene because it was dark out at that time. Instead of going back through the articles, here is an article stating that it was in fact dark out;

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/San-Francisco-Police-Probe-Tiger-Attack/1$39500

Here is a part of the article..

The first attack happened right outside the Siberian's enclosure - the victim died at the scene. A group of four officers came across his body when they entered the dark zoo grounds, Mannina said.
The second victim was about 300 yards away, in front of the Terrace Cafe. The man was sitting on the ground, blood running from gashes in his head and Tatiana sitting next to him.


So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[Buzz Mills]

Dearest LinasK,:blowkiss:
You are correct about it being dark out. One of the links posted when the story first came out stated that Officers had to hurry and set up floodlights when they first arrived on the scene because it was dark out at that time. Instead of going back through the articles, here is an article stating that it was in fact dark out;

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/San-Francisco-Police-Probe-Tiger-Attack/1$39500

Here is a part of the article..

The first attack happened right outside the Siberian's enclosure - the victim died at the scene. A group of four officers came across his body when they entered the dark zoo grounds, Mannina said.
The second victim was about 300 yards away, in front of the Terrace Cafe. The man was sitting on the ground, blood running from gashes in his head and Tatiana sitting next to him.


So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

No, it isn't correct; I live less than 50 miles from the zoo, and it isn't dark here at 5:00PM, plus I have a 3500 foot high mountain immediately to my west, while the zoo, doesn't have anything blocking the last light. You are taking a figure of speech and translating it into fact. Sunset was at 4:55PM, and it isn't as if someone turns the light off at that time. Dark would have been at 5:30PM at the earliest. We've gone over this two, or three times on this thread, if not more. Do not confuse dusk and dark.

Twi A: 5:48am
Twi N: 6:20am
Twi: 6:53am
Sunrise: 7:22am
Sunset: 4:55pm
Twi: 5:25pm
Twi N: 5:58pm
Twi A: 6:29pm
Moonrise: 6:58pm
Moonset: 9:07am

http://www.sunrisesunset.com/calendar.asp

 

[LinasK]

Buzz, you are ignoring the fact that the zoo employee of the photo booth at the Terrace Cafe stated it was pitch black there after 5:00. You live further south and probably have good lighting at your house. Why would the police need flood lights brought in, if it was sufficiently light?

 

[Texana]

The police would bring flood lights in knowing it would get darker quickly (no matter how much light was present at first) and it would take time to process the scene. And shadows from buildings, trees, etc. in dusk or darkening light makes it harder to see evidence like blood spots.

 

[JBean]

Tiger Attack Survivors Not Cooperating With Police

POSTED: 12:08 pm PST December 28, 2007


SAN FRANCISCO -- Reports are surfacing that Paul and Kulbir Dhaliwal, the two brothers who survived the Christmas day tiger attack at the San Francisco Zoo, have been less than cooperative with the SFPD as the investigation into the attack continues.

Authorities say Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23, initially refused to give their own names or identify Carlos Sousa Jr. as the other attack victim. They also would not give an account of what had happened at the zoo to police.

During interviews with media Thursday, Sousa Jr.'s father also revealed that he had called the younger Dhaliwal brother while trying to figure out why his son hadn't been at Christmas dinner. Even though the call occurred when the 17-year-old Sousa Jr. would either have been en route or actually at the San Francisco Zoo with the brothers, Paul Dhaliwal told Carlos Sousa Sr. that he had not seen his son.

The brothers remain at San Francisco General Hospital recovering from severe bite and claw wounds. Their names were provided by hospital and law enforcement sources who spoke on condition of anonymity because the family had not yet given permission to release their names.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14940180/detail.html?rss=fran&psp=news

From your article this is in addition to the other previous charges revealed prior:

Paul Dhaliwal also has three other cases in Santa Clara County: an arrest for reckless driving and evading a police officer and being a minor in possession of alcohol and public intoxication, according to court documents.

 

[Nova]

I'm not sure why it's necessary to jump on DS about this. We've read more than one account discussing how lack of light hampered the efforts of police when they arrived.

My longitude isn't that far from Buzz's and he's right: technically, it isn't full dark until 5:30 or so. But it's dark enough at 5 that most of us complain about how it's "already dark" when people leave work at 5.

 

[Littledeer]

Dusk to Darkness can happen in within minutes....

Titania, as we all know from animal history, can see in darkness, images, etc., unlike us humans.

It was close to the closing time at the zoo, so it could be feasible, that if someone had been tauting Titania, she would have acted on her own instincts. (meaning, she still has the "wild" behavior in her makeup).

 

[kgeaux]

The latest article up on Drudge says a shoe was found. The zoo director said it yesterday. Why would he say that, I wonder? Could you point me to a more recent link that states that no shoe, blood or shoe print was found?

I totally agree that if the wall was too low it's the zoo's liability and also the AZA bears a huge responsibility in this, as they are the accrediting and inspecting body for the country's best zoos. I won't go to a zoo which isn't an AZA member.

I also think Amrann has a point about if the young men WERE dangling anything over the wall, that's just...well... incredible..

I sure hope Drudge corrects his misinformation! I've never heard the zoo director say that, but if he ever did, he has backpedaled big time.

Here's a link to one article---honestly, I began hearing this last night, so I'm sure it's on any news site you want to visit---

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22419664/

Mollinedo said it was becoming increasingly clear the tiger leaped or climbed out, perhaps by grabbing onto a ledge. Investigators have ruled out the theory the tiger escaped through a door behind the exhibit at the zoo, which remained closed Friday.....

Fong denied earlier reports that police were looking into the possibility that the victims had dangled a leg or other body part over the edge of the moat....

No shoe was found inside, but a shoe print was found on the railing of the fence surrounding the enclosure....


I've quoted just a little of the pertinent info. Hope this helps!

 

[dark_shadows]

I'm not sure why it's necessary to jump on DS about this. We've read more than one account discussing how lack of light hampered the efforts of police when they arrived.

My longitude isn't that far from Buzz's and he's right: technically, it isn't full dark until 5:30 or so. But it's dark enough at 5 that most of us complain about how it's "already dark" when people leave work at 5.

My very dearest Nova,:blowkiss:
I want you to know that I truly appreciate your post very much.
I am hurt by Buzz's post to me.


So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[dark_shadows]

Dusk to Darkness can happen in within minutes....

Titania, as we all know from animal history, can see in darkness, images, etc., unlike us humans.

It was close to the closing time at the zoo, so it could be feasible, that if someone had been tauting Titania, she would have acted on her own instincts. (meaning, she still has the "wild" behavior in her makeup).

My very dearest Littledeer,:blowkiss:
I am grateful for your post. Thank-you so very much.

o much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

 

[reb]

<The two surviving victims could also be charged with a crime if they are found to have caused or contributed to Sousa's death, even unintentionally, he said.>

awesome!!!!!! that's all i can say. and the fact that they are 'refusing to cooperate with police'... what do you think that tells us?? seems quite obvious to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071228/ap_on_re_us/tiger_escapes

 

[JBean]

<The two surviving victims could also be charged with a crime if they are found to have caused or contributed to Sousa's death, even unintentionally, he said.>

awesome!!!!!! that's all i can say. and the fact that they are 'refusing to cooperate with police'... what do you think that tells us?? seems quite obvious to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071228/ap_on_re_us/tiger_escapes

On the one hand, I can understand why they would not want to speak to the police. Anything they say can be used against them. If someone were looking at me for a crime, innocent or guilty,I would say nothing.
But on the other hand the fact that they have a history of deviant behavior coupled with :
>>Authorities say Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23, initially refused to give their own names or identify Carlos Sousa Jr. as the other attack victim. They also would not give an account of what had happened at the zoo to police<<
makes me suspicious.
Not providing names AND not cooperating AND having a history of arrests makes me question everything

 

[JanetElaine]

No, it isn't correct; I live less than 50 miles from the zoo, and it isn't dark here at 5:00PM, plus I have a 3500 foot high mountain immediately to my west, while the zoo, doesn't have anything blocking the last light. You are taking a figure of speech and translating it into fact. Sunset was at 4:55PM, and it isn't as if someone turns the light off at that time. Dark would have been at 5:30PM at the earliest. We've gone over this two, or three times on this thread, if not more. Do not confuse dusk and dark.

Twi A: 5:48am
Twi N: 6:20am
Twi: 6:53am
Sunrise: 7:22am
Sunset: 4:55pm
Twi: 5:25pm
Twi N: 5:58pm
Twi A: 6:29pm
Moonrise: 6:58pm
Moonset: 9:07am

http://www.sunrisesunset.com/calendar.asp

Why are you so adamant that it wasn't dark out when the officers came across the body of Souza? The attack happened shortly after 5 pm, now depending on what your view of 'shortly' is, let us say that is beteen 5:05-5:10 pm (15 minutes after sunset). The police were there not at the time of the attack, they came in later. How much later? I'd say 10 minutes at least to get to the zoo. That makes it 5:15-5:20 (25 minutes after sunset and 10 minutes before when you say it's completely dark). Give them a couple of minutes to reach the tiger grotto and find the body, and it's pretty darn close to 'fully dark' if you ask me.... at which point in time a shade below fully dark probably did not make much of a difference. I'm thinking too that your argument needs filed under 'semantics'.