Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo

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  • #261
From the radio description of what happened: The tiger attacked one of the brothers, who began screaming. (I guess so!) Carlos ran over to try to help, and the tiger turned on him and "gave him one swipe" before returning to the brothers, who had by then run to the café. If that account is true, then Carlos is actually a more of a hero,...

kgeaux...I took the liberty of bolding the portion of your post that I wanted to comment on.

From this, I feel that Tatiana was not on the "attack of 3" - I think her focus was solely on the brothers (who most probably antagonized/angered her). When Carlos stepped in to help she wanted him to stay out of it; she swatted ("swiped") him away and returned her attention to the real sources of her distress. Unfortunately, it was a fatal swipe.

I also believe this is why the brothers are not being fully cooperative with the investigators. They know, in their own minds, that they are responsible for inciting the attack that killed an innocent person. I hesitate to say friend here because I do not feel that they were really Carlos' friend. They do not honor his sacrifice, or his memory, when they refuse to "man-up" to their culpability in his death or acknowledge his heroism.

I think the brothers were Tatiana's target and Carlos, sadly, intervened at his own peril.

And...I could very well be proven wrong when all of the facts and evidence come to light. However...I always say if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...

RIP Carlos and Tatiana
 
  • #262
Well said, Fermi.

I would only add that any criminal defense attorney worth his/her salt would say to the brothers, "The City and animal lovers everywhere are looking for a scapegoat here. Keep your traps shut!"
 
  • #263
Did the zoo director lie? Or was he misinformed? There is sooooo much to know about what is going on in a zoo. He may have been told this or it may be falsely recorded. It may be that only once it was measured after this tragedy that even the zoo director learned the true height. The zoo director may be responsible for not knowing the correct height, thereby knowing it should have been fixed. But, the zoo director is not necessarily a liar. Who knows, maybe he did lie. But we simply don't know that.

Lion

I think he was covering his butt, however the true measurements were going to come out. (This is an 80 year old zoo- with a 40 year old fence. I've been there and seen it personally and I never felt safe in front of that exhibit- The fence is only 31/2 feet high in front of the sidewalk where the visitors stand! and there is no water in the moat) He knew this tiger had gone after the keeper's arm a year ago and didn't take sufficient precautions. Also, if his staff had been prepared, the tiger would have been tranquilized by them before the police shot it, and then the decision could be made to euthanize it or move it to a wildlife refuge.
 
  • #264
I think someone from the zoo must have been giving false or leading info to the press about the possible board, the shoe, the taunting, etc. I don't believe there was any taunting at all. The evidence shows that this was just a really mean determined animal. The evidence that the tigers were climbing up the wall, the wear on the back nails from climbing, and the aggression show that the cat was being allowed to repetively try and get up that very short wall and that she was capable of attacking more than any other tigers had been in the past. I'm glad that it is looking more like the poor murdered boy did nothing and may have even been a hero. The other boys were not chickens either just because they aren't talking to anyone. They aren't stupid, and know that they have a huge lawsuit and that the whole thing may be pinned on them due to the city not wanting to admit fault or that they committed negligent homicide by totally ignoring and lying about faulty fencing. I wouldn't speak to anyone either until an attorney arrived.
 
  • #265
I think someone from the zoo must have been giving false or leading info to the press about the possible board, the shoe, the taunting, etc. I don't believe there was any taunting at all. The evidence shows that this was just a really mean determined animal. The evidence that the tigers were climbing up the wall, the wear on the back nails from climbing, and the aggression show that the cat was being allowed to repetively try and get up that very short wall and that she was capable of attacking more than any other tigers had been in the past. I'm glad that it is looking more like the poor murdered boy did nothing and may have even been a hero. The other boys were not chickens either just because they aren't talking to anyone. They aren't stupid, and know that they have a huge lawsuit and that the whole thing may be pinned on them due to the city not wanting to admit fault or that they committed negligent homicide by totally ignoring and lying about faulty fencing. I wouldn't speak to anyone either until an attorney arrived.

This is a good post and I agree with it. I have thought that one of the reasons the brothers may be laying low is to first seek legal counsel. Now I still think they need to speak to LE, obviously - but I'm not opposed to them talking to an atty first - it does seem that a lot of spurious "evidence" of them being at fault has ben bandied about and possibly leaked by the zoo.
 
  • #266
Yes, but it's hardly accurate to call the tiger "tame." I think that's what the poster was saying. Few if any of us are blaming the tiger, really, but "tame" goes too far.

Hi Nova,

I never referred to this tiger as "tame" in my post. I referred to her as what she is - a wild animal with natural, instinctual tendencies.

That clarified, I was respectfully disagreeing with Colomom (and incidentally other posters) who say that this tiger attacked before (ie. her keeper) for seemingly no reason. She did not attack, she reacted on one other occasion that we know of - when a keeper reached into her enclosure to take her meat.

Just as "tame" goes too far (which I agree with btw), so too, does "methodically ate her [keepers] arm" and "history of attacking".
 
  • #267
I would only add that any criminal defense attorney worth his/her salt would say to the brothers, "The City and animal lovers everywhere are looking for a scapegoat here. Keep your traps shut!"

Ahhh...gotta love those defense attorneys :sick:

You are right though Nova, they have probably been besieged with offers of representation (the smell of $ permeates the salty bay air in this case)...along with directives to zip it up!

Do you know if it has been substantiated yet that they (the brothers) were not only belligerent/abusive towards LE but also towards hospital personnel? If so, I am curious/confused as to why all this "attitude", especially towards those trying to help.
 
  • #268
Ahhh...gotta love those defense attorneys :sick:

You are right though Nova, they have probably been besieged with offers of representation (the smell of $ permeates the salty bay air in this case)...along with directives to zip it up!

Do you know if it has been substantiated yet that they (the brothers) were not only belligerent/abusive towards LE but also towards hospital personnel? If so, I am curious/confused as to why all this "attitude", especially towards those trying to help.

That's in their police records- hostile/resisting arrests and it sounds like they have problems with alcohol.
 
  • #269
Also, if his staff had been prepared, the tiger would have been tranquilized by them before the police shot it, and then the decision could be made to euthanize it or move it to a wildlife refuge.

I so agree LinasK...this tiger was set-up for failure by the people she was entrusted to to keep her safe (and the public safe). I am also appalled that they did not have staff, prepared and available at a moments notice, to handle situations such as this.

They (the zoo's) have a commitment and a responsibility to life, both inside and outside, the fence. To take short-cuts or do the minimum required is reprehensible...and foolish.

Edited to add: We must have been posting at the same time LoL! Thank you for the response to my question. Very sad. I have to wonder if, as a previous poster mentioned, alcohol being served at this zoo (incredibly stupid btw), played a part in the events that unfolded there. I can envision a scenario but at the risk of starting a "wild-fire" will keep my theories to myself!
 
  • #270
Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:21pm ESTBy Jim Christie

SAN FRANCISCO, Dec 28 (Reuters) - The tiger that killed a visitor and mauled two others at the San Francisco Zoo this week may have simply scaled its exhibit's wall to attack the three, a top U.S. tiger expert said on Friday.

The 12 1/2-foot (3.8-meter) high wall built in the 1940s was short of the recommended height for walls for modern tiger enclosures, or a height of just over 16 feet (4.9 meters) urged by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums.

Ron Tilson, the association official responsible for the recommendation, told Reuters in a telephone interview that a Siberian tiger like the one at the San Francisco Zoo could scale a wall of just over 12 feet.

"I've seen tigers, big male tigers, reach up to 12 feet high," said Tilson, also the Minnesota Zoo's conservation director.

A Siberian tiger on its hind legs could reach up to 11 feet, Tilson said, adding that the female Siberian at the San Francisco Zoo may have jumped another foot to latch its front paws on the lip of her exhibit's wall. That would have provided enough support for the powerful 350-pound cat to push itself up the concrete wall with its hind legs, Tilson said.

"I could understand how this female got her paws up and then just scrambled up," he said.

more at link:http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN28371903
 
  • #271
  • #272
From Buzz's article:

Komejan's attorney, Michael Mandel, said he sees parallels between Komejan's case and the Christmas Day rampage, when the tiger killed 17-year-old Carlos Sousa Jr. and mauled his friends Paul Dhaliwal, 19, and Kulbir Dhaliwal, 23.
"In both cases, there were certainly insufficient safeguards to protect both employees and the public," Mandel said.


Among the lawsuits that the zoo could face would be those filed by the victims and their families, even if investigators find that the Sousa and his friends had provoked the tiger or ignored warnings not to taunt the animals, Little said.
"Inevitably, there are going to be lawsuits filed," Little said. "Even if they provoked the tiger, a reasonable person would believe that the tiger could not escape. That's what you count on when you go to the zoo. You count on the idea that the animals cannot reach you."
It is also possible that the zoo could face criminal charges of negligent homicide if the investigation finds the zoo contributed to the death and injuries of the victims, he said.
The two surviving victims could also be charged with a crime if they are found to have caused or contributed to Sousa's death, even unintentionally, he said.

It wasn't clear from the transcript how long police were kept out of the zoo.

As more emergency responders raced to the scene and medics attended to the victim, at 5:25 p.m. a dispatch that was sent read that an officer had spotted the tiger.
At 5:27 p.m. the officers began firing at the animal.
 
  • #273
kgeaux...I took the liberty of bolding the portion of your post that I wanted to comment on.

From this, I feel that Tatiana was not on the "attack of 3" - I think her focus was solely on the brothers (who most probably antagonized/angered her). When Carlos stepped in to help she wanted him to stay out of it; she swatted ("swiped") him away and returned her attention to the real sources of her distress. Unfortunately, it was a fatal swipe.

I also believe this is why the brothers are not being fully cooperative with the investigators. They know, in their own minds, that they are responsible for inciting the attack that killed an innocent person. I hesitate to say friend here because I do not feel that they were really Carlos' friend. They do not honor his sacrifice, or his memory, when they refuse to "man-up" to their culpability in his death or acknowledge his heroism.

I think the brothers were Tatiana's target and Carlos, sadly, intervened at his own peril.

And...I could very well be proven wrong when all of the facts and evidence come to light. However...I always say if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...

RIP Carlos and Tatiana


Fermi,
Excellent post Fermi, excellent post!!!:clap:
 
  • #274
By Kim Vo and Mike Swift
Mercury News

Article Launched: 12/28/2007 04:45:20 PM PSTZoo officials initially thought a San Jose man was "making something up" when he told them a tiger was on the loose and had bitten him, according to a transcript of police dispatch report released Friday afternoon.
The report reveal the chaotic scene Christmas night when a Siberian tiger escaped her cage at the San Francisco Zoo and attacked three men, killing 17-year-old Carlos Sousa, Jr.
Nearly two tense hours would pass between the initial 911 call from a cafe employee and the 6:57 p.m. message that there were no additional victims, "no employees trapped, all tigers secure."
In that time, the dispatches reveal, zookeepers tried to shoot the tiger, Tatiana, with tranquilizers; zoo security initially did not allow police inside; and a zookeeper disobeyed police orders and ran to the pen by himself as officers tried to account for the zoo's other cats after mistaken reports that as many as four tigers might be roaming one of the city's most popular attractions. While the chaos apparently did not contribute to the tragic outcome - Carlos is thought to have been killed early on - the dispatches raise questions about the zoo's preparedness for emergencies.The new details surfaced at a brief press conference Friday afternoon, where Zoo director Manuel Mollinedo wouldn't answer questions.

According to the new documents, the 911 call came at 5:08 p.m. Tuesday: "A very agitated male is claiming he was bitten by an animal," the dispatcher said, relaying a call from a cafe worker. "They do not see any animal missing// Male is bleeding from the head."
Two minutes later, the dispatcher reported: "Zoo dispatch now say there are 2 males who the zoo thinks they are 800 (crazy) and making something up // but one is in fact bleeding from the back of the head."
Ten seconds later, the zoo confirmed the men were right. "Now they are saying they have a tiger out."
Though written in communications jargon, the gripping 18-page report conveys the terrifying scene that unfolded.
Medics reported that the zoo workers tried to calm down the tiger. The police were still outside at the time. "Zoo security not letting PD in. Zoo personnel have the tiger in sight and are dealing with it," a police officer said at 5:17 p.m.. "The vict is inside a cafe at the other side of the zoo."
Officers eventually entered the zoo and minutes later found a victim with a large "puncture to neck." They later found another man "whose brother was bit by the tiger."
That was apparently Paul Dhaliwal. Police would later find his brother, Kulbir, at the cafe, with the tiger beside him.
"I have the animal right" in front of me "at the gate off of Herbst," an officer reported at 5:25 p.m.
With the tiger in their sights, officers warned each other of "blue on blue" - possible cross-fire if they needed to shoot. Two minutes later, at 5:27 p.m., the tiger began "attacking victim."
"Stop shooting," an officer said, 34 seconds later. "Have cat, shot cat."
Beside Tatiana was a 23-year-old man, presumably Kulbir Dhaliwal, who bleeding from the face and back of the head, but was conscious and breathing.
Any sense of relief was short-lived. Less than a minute later, another disturbing report crackled across the radio: "May be another tiger." As police called for thermal imagers, night vision equipment and shotgun slugs, the number of possible loose tigers was upped to four. And the zoo still wasn't fully evacuated. "People from zoos trapped in businesses," officials reported. more at link:http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_7831370?source=most_viewed&nclick_check=1
 
  • #275
  • #276
I can't believe the zoo's errors in handling this situation from what I just read on Linask's link.

Why would you not believe someone BLEEDING, and probably frightened out of their mind, that an animal was loose?

Maybe they should put chips (gps?) in the animals so they could locate any that got loose more quickly.

This is just a tragedy all the way around.
 
  • #277
I am surprised by anyone who says that the boys deserved what they got. We are all humans. We are all capable of mistakes. We are capable of having a mean moment. Doesn't everyone have remorse for something they have done in the past . . . maybe just hurtful words? I do.

If these boys taunted the tiger, then of course, that's wrong. Should the punishment be death and maming? I think that the two boys who lived are now subject to having these memories for the rest of their lives and that's punishment enough for me. They have to live with themselves. As for Carlos, whether he taunted the tiger or not, think of him as your son or nephew . . . now do you think he should have died?
 
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