Timeline Discussion

[gliving]

Haeve, why do I feel Dateline's program tonight will contain similar 'facts'?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Sorry, I must have missed something, who or what is Deep Throat that you are referring to BeanE? TIA.

Deep Throat was the informant in the Watergate case with Woodward and Bernstein - a "reliable source" that brought down President Nixon.
All the President's Men

I know people have been wary about these "unnamed sources" but it happens in every case. Sometimes police speak to reporters off the record too and ask to remain anonymous. None of these reports should be dismissed as automatically false - every rumor has a grain of truth in it.

 

[Aedrys]

Haeve, why do I feel Dateline's program tonight will contain similar 'facts'?

Probably. I'm not going to watch it. When they did a Dateline on the Caylee Anthony case, it basically giving the floor to the very grandparents that have tried so hard to cover up what Casey did. It made me sick. Dateline doesn't always do a good job of presenting a case the way it should be presented. So I'm sure there will be mistakes with the Kyron case as well.

ETA: I think it was 48 Hours, not Dateline that did the Anthony case, but still, I never watched any shows as they focused way too much on the poor grieving grandparents and that Casey could be innocent. I don't like the slant these shows give instead of just straight reporting a case.

 

[tlcya]

Okay, forgive me if this has already been covered earlier in the thread. I am just popping in an don't really have the time available to read the entire thread at the moment.

DeDe supposedly got a phone call or for some reason left where she was, was unaccounted for some period of time and then resurfaced later in the day. Does anyone recall what that time period was? Does it coincide with e3ither Terri's reported long drive around rural roads or her gym visit?

If the missing hours are common between teh two women, it is possible they were together doing something they do not want known. If DeDe's absence was during the time Terri was reportedly at the gym it could be that DeDe was actually the one there working out in Terri's stead, giving Terri an additional 45 minutes off the radar.

Questions I wish I knew the answer to

1) was baby K left in daycare while Terri (or someone closely resembling her) was working out?

2) is there video survelience footage showing Terri (and baby K) there at that time?

3) Have we ever established that Baby K was indeed at the school? I know Kaine says Terri took her with she and Kyron that a.m. but that does not mean baby was actually taken to school. Is it possible she was left at the gym daycare that morning before dropping Kyron off at school, and later, picked up by Dede or Terri during the "gym visit"?

 

[Kat010]

agreed i'm certainly not a fan of "sources" but seems to be all we are getting in this case. I believe that statement from KGW may have about the RO and the landscaper, hard to say as they did not reference what article this source was used in Kwim.. I say may have been regarding the RO etc as Peter Bhatia editor of the oregonian defended max's piece on that around the same time.
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/07/plot-to-kill_story_puts_sourci.html

At least they are trying to defend the reporting style they are using?

The Society of Professional Journalists' code of ethics advises that journalists "identify sources whenever feasible. The public is entitled to as much information as possible on sources' reliability."

http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

There are far too many "sources" and "reliable sources" quoted by far too many news outlets for me in this case. Unless there's a single great "reliable source" that's making the rounds of every news media, I think there's some sloppy journalism going on and grabbing at straws to keep the story --and hence, the readership/TV views--going.

As a journalist, I've used reliable sources. However, I always had a firm rule: I never quoted an un-named source unless and until I did the research and found, from three quotable sources, that their information was true. I didn't always quote the quotable sources because--and this takes time, lots of it, research, interviewing skills, and hard hard work--what I would do is go from one resource to another, seeking some pertinent bit of information from one at a time. (Kind of like the police do, I learned later.) Often what one person wouild say during an interview, often about something else or a larger-scale issue, would lead me to someone else.

And bit by by I would compile enough to convince *me* that my source, no matter how well I knew/trusted him/her, was correct. Then I'd go back and re-interview anyone I needed to quote *specifically* on that topic, and then, only then, write the story. It once took me weeks to put together a graft/scamming of public funds story. In that case, my reliable source was totally known to me, and totally reliable, but I still followed my rules. That was the story for which I almost went to jail but the DA got smart and jumped on my bandwagon literally at the last minute (I was headed for the judge's courtroom with company lawyers to wind up in jail on contempt charges) and decided to launch his own investigation.

I'm saying all that to provide background for my belief that the use of reliable sources can be justified and can provide good information. However, any reliable source must be proven to have verifiable information by the journalist quoting him/her.

As fast and as often as these "reliable source" and "sources" reports are coming in, I'd label 95% of what I've seen --almost daily -- in this case as sloppy journalism and rumor-mongering to build the reporter's ego (I got a story no one else has or I got it first!), and the company's numbers.

JMO.

 

[cluciano63]

I tend to believe a source from a reliable news station or newspaper before I listen to an ex-anything discussing a case he/she is not working.

 

[BeanE]

Deep Throat was the informant in the Watergate case with Woodward and Bernstein - a "reliable source" that brought down President Nixon.
All the President's Men

I know people have been wary about these "unnamed sources" but it happens in every case. Sometimes police speak to reporters off the record too and ask to remain anonymous. None of these reports should be dismissed as automatically false - every rumor has a grain of truth in it.

There are unnamed sources in many cases, but I've never seen this many in any single case. It's ridiculous. Tabloid journalism.

It's not a matter of automatically dismissing reports as false, it's a matter of weighting the credibility. If it's an unnamed source, it gets a low credibility weight from me. The more unnamed sources, the weight goes even lower.

There are just too many unnamed sources being used by too many news outlets in this case for me. I want reliable information from reliable sources. I want to know who's giving the information so I can make up my own mind about how much weight to assign to the credibility. It's critical.

I don't want to be led down a garden path. I'm not interested in hearing sensationalism. I'm not interested in being 'entertained' with stories. I'm trying to find out what really happened to this precious little boy. What really happened. I'm not looking for stories to occupy my time.

And as far as there's a grain of truth to every rumor? Umm... no. I've watched exactly how many of the rumors in this case started. I've spent a lot of time tracking them down. It's shocking, and it's horrible.

One, for example, came from one person speculating on a psychic forum. A thought, a fancy, an idea. It got carried all over the net as a fact.

Another rumor was deliberately and entirely manufactured by a small group of people. They seem to have done it to entertain themselves. They laughed about people on the net who fell for what they manufactured. And the rumor is absolutely vile, about one of the parents (not Terri), a person who is suffering in great pain right now. People can't stoop much lower.

We each choose what we will believe, and we each choose how we will decide what's worth believing, and what's not. What's more likely to be reliable and true, and what's less likely to be reliable or true. What helps me is to keep in mind what my goal is, to find out exactly what happened to Kyron, and who is involved, and to keep on weighing each piece of information, and the sources, based on that.

 

[cluciano63]

It is possible some of these sources are people/parents from the school or neighborhood who have been asked to keep quiet and that is why they won't allow their names to be used.

 

[human]

This has come up SO many times here. Would you please start a thread about this so EVERYONE can read why they do not name sources. TIA

reporters have gone to jail for not revealing their sources.

I think that is one of the things that they are very firm on-not revealing their sources if asked not to.

I would talk to media about something if they said that wouldn't reveal who I was. It would depend on the topic and how I felt it impacted my life. Would it impact my job, my privacy, my family? Then I would ask to be anonymous and tell them ways they could corroborate my statements.

 

[human]

Terri was probably feeling totally pissed at Kaine, and she dumped all her resentment on to Kyron. Kyron was happy. Kyron was looking forward to going to his mom's for the weekend, and going fishing with TY. Kyron was going to go on a trip to California with his father. (Wonder what Terri was going to do at that time. Was she even invited?)
Kyron had probably just been too darned happy for his own good. Terri wasn't feeling too happy. Terri was going to put a stop to that. She found a weapon to use against Kaine. Fume, fume fume. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. She probably had failed to seriously annoy Kaine, and he was completely ignoring her the way one ignores a pesty fly that is not within reach of the fly swatter. This time he would realize that he underestimated the ways that Terri could hurt him.
This is all IMO. I cannot tolerate anyone harming a child. It takes a mean soul-less cold-hearted person to take the life of a child.

the trip to California-was it the whole family or just Kyron and Dad?

I never got the impression it was just the 2 of them.

 

[SurfieTX]

You know, I could totally buy her story if it weren't for the gym part. Say baby K started showing signs and symptoms of not feeling well while they were shopping. And so she did drive around with her for a while. And, she came home and cancelled the doctor's appointment, decided not to go to the talent show, and emailed the teacher to see if the project could wait to be picked up as a result of baby K feeling ill. That adds up. Going to the gym in the middle of the day doesn't, IMHO.

 

[BeanE]

You know, I could totally buy her story if it weren't for the gym part. Say baby K started showing signs and symptoms of not feeling well while they were shopping. And so she did drive around with her for a while. And, she came home and cancelled the doctor's appointment, decided not to go to the talent show, and emailed the teacher to see if the project could wait to be picked up as a result of baby K feeling ill. That adds up. Going to the gym in the middle of the day doesn't, IMHO.

Maybe after driving around the baby felt better, was ready for a nap while mom worked out.

 

[raeann]

Sort of an off topic question, but CNN is reporting that 30 searchers returned to scour through the school yesterday. Is there a source or a thread for that somewhere that I can go to and catch up on what I have missed for the last few days???

 

[SurfieTX]

Maybe after driving around the baby felt better, was ready for a nap while mom worked out.

Yah, but...I don't know, I'd think the baby would be napping during the drive. Plus, I'm not a huge "let's run to the doctor at the first sign of sickness" kind of parent, but when my teens were young, my first motherly instinct when they didn't feel good was to get them home for observation and rest.

Seen en toto w/o the gym visit, I think the rest of the afternoon and story makes more sense - no doctor appointment, no talent show and no pick up of the project. Baby K was the perfect alibi/reason for not doing those things.

 

[BeanE]

Sort of an off topic question, but CNN is reporting that 30 searchers returned to scour through the school yesterday. Is there a source or a thread for that somewhere that I can go to and catch up on what I have missed for the last few days???

the All Kyron Searches thread has all the links and discussions on that search.

 

[Emma Peel]

We lack too many facts to reasonably assess significance of the various holes in Terri’s or Dede’s timelines. If one imagines various scenarios - and this we’ve tired – we find each timeframe in the timeline holds a possibility of Terri handing off and/or killing and disposing Kyron.

Even LE is without a body, forensics and a disposal site. LE must therefore have far more specific circumstantial evidence – and have many significant details we don’t have that keep the focus of this investigation centered on Terri.

IMO, the fact LE received warrants for searching 3 of Terri’s friends’ homes means LE had enough circumstantial evidence and testimony to justify to the court to run down at least three of Terri’s friends’ and usurp their rights to privacy. Not a small bar, that one.

Clearly, LE has information that is significant. And, with what tidbits we have we’re clear as mud that we don’t.

We don’t have cellphone, text, ping, computer, video or truck forensic information. We don’t have surveillance information. We don’t have Terri’s full version of her timeline (did she leave the science fair early because baby was fussy? Did she stop home to drop off groceries, talk to friends at the stores?) We don’t have final school witness accounts for June 4th and the school-related timeline. We don’t have the murder-for-hire allegation detailed information. We don’t have Kaine’s, Terri’s, Desiree’s, Tony’s, and immediate family’s and best friends accounts of relationship history. But … LE has all of this information and it’s significant enough to go after the warrants on the friends.

We also don’t know if Dede’s label of uncooperativeness is relative to Dede’s refusal to take LDT’s and her preference to be interviewed with her attorney present – and Dede’s advise to Terri’s other friends to take the same personal caution as she’s choosing. LE knows. We don’t know if Dede’s using common sense because she’s been dragged in as a witness in a criminal investigation, or if Dede’s really got something to hide.

Given what little timeline information we have - with any scenario we create, we have to make huge leaps of assumptions. (Such as Terri leaving the Science fair with Kyron and the baby, pulling over after school to strangle Kryon real quickly before picking up some groceries, or drugging Kyron).

I don’t mind considering a few obvious scenarios, but after that … I have to be honest and say there’s so many holes of doubt to be poked into every one of those scenarios, they are, in the end, not worth spending time thinking about.

IMO, All there is to do, is to wait it out, and keep abreast of informative pressers and leaks, and say more prayers for Kyron & his family to make it to the other side of this nightmare soon.

:cow:

 

[BeanE]

We lack too many facts to reasonably assess significance of the various holes in Terri’s or Dede’s timelines. If one imagines various scenarios - and this we’ve tired – we find each timeframe in the timeline holds a possibility of Terri handing off and/or killing and disposing Kyron.

Even LE is without a body, forensics and a disposal site. LE must therefore have far more specific circumstantial evidence – and have many significant details we don’t have that keep the focus of this investigation centered on Terri.

IMO, the fact LE received warrants for searching 3 of Terri’s friends’ homes means LE had enough circumstantial evidence and testimony to justify to the court to run down at least three of Terri’s friends’ and usurp their rights to privacy. Not a small bar, that one.

Clearly, LE has information that is significant. And, with what tidbits we have we’re clear as mud that we don’t.

We don’t have cellphone, text, ping, computer, video or truck forensic information. We don’t have surveillance information. We don’t have Terri’s full version of her timeline (did she leave the science fair early because baby was fussy? Did she stop home to drop off groceries, talk to friends at the stores?) We don’t have final school witness accounts for June 4th and the school-related timeline. We don’t have the murder-for-hire allegation detailed information. We don’t have Kaine’s, Terri’s, Desiree’s, Tony’s, and immediate family’s and best friends accounts of relationship history. But … LE has all of this information and it’s significant enough to go after the warrants on the friends.

We also don’t know if Dede’s label of uncooperativeness is relative to Dede’s refusal to take LDT’s and her preference to be interviewed with her attorney present – and Dede’s advise to Terri’s other friends to take the same personal caution as she’s choosing. LE knows. We don’t know if Dede’s using common sense because she’s been dragged in as a witness in a criminal investigation, or if Dede’s really got something to hide.

Given what little timeline information we have - with any scenario we create, we have to make huge leaps of assumptions. (Such as Terri leaving the Science fair with Kyron and the baby, pulling over after school to strangle Kryon real quickly before picking up some groceries, or drugging Kyron).

I don’t mind considering a few obvious scenarios, but after that … I have to be honest and say there’s so many holes of doubt to be poked into every one of those scenarios, they are, in the end, not worth spending time thinking about.

IMO, All there is to do, is to wait it out, and keep abreast of informative pressers and leaks, and say more prayers for Kyron & his family to make it to the other side of this nightmare soon.

:cow:

Since Desiree says there's no evidence of anybody else being involved, I'm further convinced that the alleged lack of cooperation is not that, but simply that Dede wanted to retain or consult an attorney before going in for questioning. There's nothing uncooperative or unreasonable about that.

 

[Mellen]

You know, I could totally buy her story if it weren't for the gym part. Say baby K started showing signs and symptoms of not feeling well while they were shopping. And so she did drive around with her for a while. And, she came home and cancelled the doctor's appointment, decided not to go to the talent show, and emailed the teacher to see if the project could wait to be picked up as a result of baby K feeling ill. That adds up. Going to the gym in the middle of the day doesn't, IMHO.

I agree that if baby k was really ill, it would seem heartless to force her to go to the gym. But I've seen several posts suggesting that the earache may have been related to teething pain rather than ear infection/illness (from people having seen facebook posts mentioning baby K was teething and baby k's age matching up with the development of teeth that are located near the ear canal). If that's the case, perhaps baby K was generally doing ok when awake but was having trouble napping because of the teething pain. I could see driving a teething baby around in the car to get them to fall asleep for an hour's nap before going to the gym to work out (and baby would be refreshed and ready to play at the gym).

 

[IRule254]

Maybe after driving around the baby felt better, was ready for a nap while mom worked out.

I have used many gym daycares and it is rare that the children nap at all. First of all, its very loud, and second there is usually not one on one attention to get/rock/soothe the kids to sleep. I have never seen a child napping at one of my gym daycares.

If your kid was sick enough to have to drive around for over an HOUR, you would think you would skip the gym that day. What if they were contagious anyway?

But I can see TH using this as an excuse.

 

[Chewy]

I was watching a lot of 48 hours mystery and I agree that when they know someone did the crime it's usually based on something inadmissable in court. For example I found there is a law that states a person has a right to face their accusor so even if someone wrote a letter saying "I know this person is trying to kill me" there's a good chance it will not be admissable.

Kyron may have said things to Desiree and Kaine that give the LE a good reason to suspect Terri but they can't say it yet and so what happens is that they try to build a case they CAN take to court rather than what actually happened.

So say Kyron said prior to him going missing that Terri has said things to him like "I want you dead and I can do it" or perhaps during watching CSI and crime scene investigation things Terri told him "I can get rid of you, see how easy it is?" Something like that. THIS IS ALL SPECULATION

But in the end the number one reason that they seem to catch criminals is that they tell a lie and get caught in it. It could be any reasonable sort of lie but they can tell they are lying. A criminal cannot predict the future. They can set up the whole scheme and run with it but in the end they forget that cops are used to dealing with liars and criminals every day.