Timeline Discussion

[cypress]

If baby K was teething, and teething is obvious, then Terri could've associated her fussiness and earache with teething. That is not unreasonable behavior on Terri's part. Baby K is at the right age for this type of thing, and that we do know for a fact, because we know her age. It explains why Terri would attempt to soothe her, would continue about her day running errands, and wouldn't hesitate taking her to the gym (she could've calmed down, she wasn't contagious). It would also explain why she didn't mention the earache to Kaine or make a doctor's appointment. Teething, aches and pains, and fussiness are normal parts of childhood.

One other thing about the timeline -- it's been reported by sources that bank transactions, etc., prove Terri was not where she was when she says she was, but the very fact that there are bank transactions prove she was somewhere, presumably a public place, so I wonder if Terri wasn't only driving around for 90 minutes or however long to soothe baby K. She could've driven her around and run her errands before and/or after. She was obviously somewhere buying something or at a bank or ATM conducting some type of traceable transaction.

We know she was at the school, we know she went somewhere and used a debit or credit card, we know she was at the gym at 11:39 and was there for at least 40 minutes, she posted pictures on Facebook a little after 1:00, and Kaine came home to find her in her gym clothes and on the computer, nothing out of the ordinary.

There seems to be a relatively small window of time in which she could've abducted Kyron, killed him/handed him off/disposed of him, all with a baby in tow, and then she carried on about her day, acting completely normal -- the gym, Facebook postings, e-mailing, going with Kaine to the bus stop, etc. I don't have a hard time believing evil exists, I absolutely believe it exists. I do, however, have a difficult time believing this amount of evil in Terri existed and for forty years no one noticed. And, if she did this, with her daughter in tow, went to the gym, etc., the amount of evil in her is infinite.

 

[Curious Me]

A hand off fits with the limited time frame. That would mean someone else involved. Terri ran errands until 10:10, now a hand off could've happened during the driving rural roads time, but where was Kyron while she went into the store?

The gym visit was part of her alibi. Are LE sure nothing happened like a pass off of a child there?

Sorry, I feel like I'm on a fast merry-go-round and it all looks so blurry. Poor Kyron, they may never find him. Is he alive somewhere?

 

[GrainneDhu]

GrainneDhu, thank you for such detailed, valuable information. I especially like your example about the size 11 seed bead -- it really puts things in perspective.

With your knowledge of SAR, are there any details/info you can give us about what one learns in SAR training about how perpetrators go about disposing of bodies? For instance, I would imagine that there are factors about the perp that go into where they put the body. It seems that a perp would have to have certain physical characteristics in order to get to an area that is then difficult for SAR to get to; e.g. size, weight, fitness level, knowledge of the terrain, etc.

Obviously, these are things that forensic investigators would learn in retrospect; however, I would also imagine that the knowledge previously gained can also be used in planning searches to some degree. I would think someone needing to dispose of an adult body would have limitations that would not be present with a child's body. Also, I've read that women perps have a tendency to dispose of bodies in water?

Any information you have would be appreciated. TIA

SAR doesn't so much focus on crime reconstructions; the focus for SAR is on victims who were out there voluntarily and what sorts of decisions they are likely to make.

There are lists and tables of various types of terrain and the decisions that people of various ages are most likely to make when facing such terrain (woods, hills, gullies, etc). Those resources can help searchers make educated decisions about which areas to concentrate resources.

But the problem is, the darn victims don't read those things! Victims go and do things on their own, in their own way and sometimes in ways that make no sense to a searcher.

For example, say that most five year olds would choose to go downhill if faced with a choice between an uphill trail and a downhill trail (I'm just making this up, I don't remember the actual probabilities involved). Maybe the specific five year old victim thinks they hear A BEAR in the downhill direction. Doesn't matter if the last time a bear was sighted in that area was pre-1900, to kids such fears are very, very real. If the kid thinks a bear is lurking downhill, they're not going to go there. The kid promptly makes the less probable choice and for no reason that an adult searcher can figure out.

I suspect that police K-9 units do more about suspect behaviour.

Another source might be research into wildland firefighters. I know that when researchers have figured out how fast a firefighter can move over a certain type of terrain and how much various sorts of loads slow them down.

As for the water theory, I don't know. I have a vague impression, strictly amateur, that with the increased knowledge of the importance of trace evidence and DNA, water disposal is becoming more common.

 

[OneLove]

A hand off fits with the limited time frame. That would mean someone else involved. Terri ran errands until 10:10, now a hand off could've happened during the driving rural roads time, but where was Kyron while she went into the store?

The gym visit was part of her alibi. Are LE sure nothing happened like a pass off of a child there?

Sorry, I feel like I'm on a fast merry-go-round and it all looks so blurry. Poor Kyron, they may never find him. Is he alive somewhere?

If she had just committed an atrocity, she might have needed to work off some adrenaline at the gym. Since she then went home and cancelled all other appointments/commitments for the day, I tend toward believing this. I wonder if the other people at the gym have been interviewed. I also wonder if the childcare worker/s have been asked questions as to whether they were told anything about an earache/teething or noticed signs of such.

 

[aim]

I know that there is a timeline that came out from a source that gives a detailed timeline of what TH was doing that day and when. I'm not sure how to link that timeline here . I am interested to know if any other sleuthers here can pick up on any bits of truth in the supoosed timeline. I am unsure if we are allowed to speculate about this and apologize if we aren't, so feel free to delete if necessary.

 

[DairyGirl]

KATU - Story Updated: Jul 23, 2010 at 7:17 PM PDT

Sources detail Terri’s timeline day Kyron disappeared

According to multiple sources, Terri Moulton Horman says she left Skyline School at 8:45 in the morning without Kyron the day he disappeared and that between 8:45 a.m. and 10:10 a.m. she ran errands at local grocery stores and can prove it.

snip

Between 10:10 in the morning and 11:39, Terri said she drove her daughter K around on rural roads in the family’s white truck because K had an earache. She said she was trying to soothe the toddler with the motion of the vehicle.

snip

At 11:39 a.m., Terri checked in at a 24-hour Fitness in Beaverton on Waterhouse Avenue and worked out for about an hour until 12:40 p.m.

By 1:21, Terri said she'd traveled home - a distance of nearly 11 miles - and was posting photos on Facebook she'd taken that morning of Kyron standing with his science project and of his friend, K, standing with his.

Sources said she also e-mailed the teacher to find out when she could come pick up the project as she had not taken it home.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/99151549.html

Call me strange but when my child wasn't feeling well I took them home immediately and gave them something for the pain. And I did not take them to a gym nursery to possibly get someone sick or for them to get even sicker.

 

[Billylee]

Me and the dbf are talking this timeline over..
He drives around this area a lot (me too, but him even more)

First thing HE said (he doesn't follow the case close) is that what if she met someone and traded K in exchange for the MFH.. Hey, it's another opinion..

Second I showed him on the map the Albertson's on BHH, and he looked at me and said she went to that one? Why?
(Because we both know there is a CLOSER one on 185th & West Union, and there is nothing "special" at Albertson's to drive that far away to another one if one is out of something..)

And like he said, there is no easy fast way out of that area, vs. Fred Meyer's on Imbrie..

So, to summarize, from 8:45 to 10:10.. = 85 minutes
times are approx and from our experiences in driving the roads here

15 mins to get from Skyline School to Fred Meyer's on Imbrie
25 mins to get from Fred Meyer's to Albertson's on BHH (that's in good traffic)

that leaves
23 minutes for one store
and
22 minutes for the other

These minutes (for each store) would include parking, getting baby out, shopping, going through check out, going back to car, putting items purchased and baby back in car..

It can be done, but it would make more sense if the two stores were closer together.

If she was there by the Albertson's for another errand or stopping by a friends
it sure doesn't give her much time..
It is just way out of the way, I cannot for the life of me and knowing the roads, stores, etc in the area, put a logical reason why she may have gone to that one.

Approx 25 mins is a long way to drive from one store to another to spend approx 20 minutes shopping..

I'm just thinking this first part out, haven't even started on the next part..

TIA for letting me ramble =)

It was said earlier on that they had once lived in Aloha. I can't find a reference for that, but Beaverton comes up when you do a people search. Is that Albertson's the closest one to Beaverton, and maybe where she used to shop before she moved?

 

[freefallzzzz]

It was said earlier on that they had once lived in Aloha. I can't find a reference for that, but Beaverton comes up when you do a people search. Is that Albertson's the closest one to Beaverton, and maybe where she used to shop before she moved?

Here is a link for the closest ones to Aloha, there is one in particular I know one could drive to that is very close.. =)

But.. you never know =)

http://locator.albertsons.com/StoreLocatorAction.do?action=searchStores

 

[BringKyronHome]

I didnt' read this whole thing, and actually I'm really surprised at some of the posts here...

I had heard this news, but never saw the report...I didn't realize that the times had been reported...

I've been working under the notion that she had a 1.5 hour window where she claimed to be driving around but that we didn't have a clear idea of when exactly that 1.5 hours was....

My thoughts were, well it must be 8:45-10:15...because otherwise there would be no way she would be the 'prime' focus...

Now, I see that there are a good number of people that disagree with me...but riddle me this...what the heck did she do with Kyron while she was shopping?

Did she kick him out of the car onto an embankment on her way to the store?

Or did she strangle him in the parkinglot and cover him up with a blanket, unbuckle K, and proceed to shop (all while not being noticed)?

Ceratianly he wasn't at the store or they would have seen it. Did she just leave him in the truck and run the risk of someone seeing him?

Did she pass him off to someone in the parking lot?

Are there camera's in these parking lots?



As for the driving around part, I'm not really sure why people are seeing this as so odd.

I don't at all think that Terri drove around with a screaming banchie for 90 minutes. If she is calling it an earache then likely she had some evidence to distinguish this from any other cranky issue...rubbing ears, red ear, difficulty sleeping, etc. No one would surmise an earache and leave it to a bumpy car ride to solve...if an ear infection is not dealt with it could cause hearing loss...I'm going to asume she had seen the doc and either the doc gave antibiotics (in which case it was just a matter of keeping her comfortable until the infection broke) or it was not an infection, but perhaps just some fluid buildup causing pressure.

Either way, the answer, tylenol/ibuprofin, which we have no way to know that she hadn't given it to her...and bumpy is better for kids, smooth is not...we spent many evenings searching out pothole ridden roads for my now 3yo...90 minutes is a good nap...if bumping/rocking her to sleep got her to rest, this is in fact the best thing to help her get better...or atleast get her to rest. If she slept for 90 minutes chances are very good that she could have had a nice 60 minute playtime in the nursery without a breakdown.

And then lastly, no kid wants to chew food while having an earache. At 18 months she's likely still using a sippy cup. I have no idea what K likes, but that same 3yo I told you about is a HUGE fan of those yo-baby drinks which are WAY thick and filling, cold and soothing for a sore throat.

I have no idea how I missed this, and frankly I think it would take a real wizard to find a way to do-in a kid during this timeline.

Sure it's possible with some help and a hole lot of planning, but I just don't see her having that skill level...for pete's sake just look at the choices she's made since 6/4, certainly she won't be accused of being the sharpest tool in the shed...and I think she'd need to be that to pull this off. Not to mention that her choices seem to be pretty juvenile and self-destructive.

I do agree she's a fruit cake. But I just don't see her being smart enough to plan all this out to the precision she would need to, plus I can't at all see someone else helping her to do-in & despose of an adorable little smiley face 7yo...how the heck do you convince someone to help you pull that off?

K&D can't even come up with a possible motive, how the heck do we?

I suppose if they lived in the middle of crack-alley or some such thing...then maybe I could see some drug debt issue, other than something like that this whole idea, in my opinion, defies logic.

 

[cluciano63]

I agree she's no mastermind criminal (like Misty ) and I think she is a flake, but not so sure she did anything to Kyron. Her day leaves that gap, true, but I am not convinced she used it to get rid of Kyron. Will just have to wait and see...

 

[ami]

I didnt' read this whole thing, and actually I'm really surprised at some of the posts here...

I had heard this news, but never saw the report...I didn't realize that the times had been reported...

I've been working under the notion that she had a 1.5 hour window where she claimed to be driving around but that we didn't have a clear idea of when exactly that 1.5 hours was....

My thoughts were, well it must be 8:45-10:15...because otherwise there would be no way she would be the 'prime' focus...

Now, I see that there are a good number of people that disagree with me...but riddle me this...what the heck did she do with Kyron while she was shopping?

Did she kick him out of the car onto an embankment on her way to the store?

Or did she strangle him in the parkinglot and cover him up with a blanket, unbuckle K, and proceed to shop (all while not being noticed)?

Ceratianly he wasn't at the store or they would have seen it. Did she just leave him in the truck and run the risk of someone seeing him?

Did she pass him off to someone in the parking lot?

Are there camera's in these parking lots?



As for the driving around part, I'm not really sure why people are seeing this as so odd.

I don't at all think that Terri drove around with a screaming banchie for 90 minutes. If she is calling it an earache then likely she had some evidence to distinguish this from any other cranky issue...rubbing ears, red ear, difficulty sleeping, etc. No one would surmise an earache and leave it to a bumpy car ride to solve...if an ear infection is not dealt with it could cause hearing loss...I'm going to asume she had seen the doc and either the doc gave antibiotics (in which case it was just a matter of keeping her comfortable until the infection broke) or it was not an infection, but perhaps just some fluid buildup causing pressure.

Either way, the answer, tylenol/ibuprofin, which we have no way to know that she hadn't given it to her...and bumpy is better for kids, smooth is not...we spent many evenings searching out pothole ridden roads for my now 3yo...90 minutes is a good nap...if bumping/rocking her to sleep got her to rest, this is in fact the best thing to help her get better...or atleast get her to rest. If she slept for 90 minutes chances are very good that she could have had a nice 60 minute playtime in the nursery without a breakdown.

And then lastly, no kid wants to chew food while having an earache. At 18 months she's likely still using a sippy cup. I have no idea what K likes, but that same 3yo I told you about is a HUGE fan of those yo-baby drinks which are WAY thick and filling, cold and soothing for a sore throat.

I have no idea how I missed this, and frankly I think it would take a real wizard to find a way to do-in a kid during this timeline.

Sure it's possible with some help and a hole lot of planning, but I just don't see her having that skill level...for pete's sake just look at the choices she's made since 6/4, certainly she won't be accused of being the sharpest tool in the shed...and I think she'd need to be that to pull this off. Not to mention that her choices seem to be pretty juvenile and self-destructive.

I do agree she's a fruit cake. But I just don't see her being smart enough to plan all this out to the precision she would need to, plus I can't at all see someone else helping her to do-in & despose of an adorable little smiley face 7yo...how the heck do you convince someone to help you pull that off?

K&D can't even come up with a possible motive, how the heck do we?

I suppose if they lived in the middle of crack-alley or some such thing...then maybe I could see some drug debt issue, other than something like that this whole idea, in my opinion, defies logic.

Yep, you're asking questions we've all asked ourselves about this case. It's baffling.

The one place I disagree is that I think there was plenty of time to do terrible things within her timeline. Also realize her timeline is self-reported. If she had an accomplice, if she fudged on the times, if it was not TMH but her redheaded friend that signed in at the gym, if TMH signed in at the gym and dropped off baby K and then left the gym, if she passed Kyron off to someone else.... all of these things would fit the time line and allow many awful things to happen to a child. Premeditation would make up for the lack of self-control we've seen in her post-abduction actions.

Also some criminals just have dumb luck on their sides. They come up with some half-a$$ed plan that's really dumb and no way should work - except it does. Or they carefully plan and it's months before the real evidence can be found.

In reading books about crime, I've noticed that a lot of the murderers are actually pretty bad criminals and hardly the masterminds we assume they are for having taken someone vulnerable and trusting's life. So many defense cases use the strategy, "My client is a smart man and if he chose to murder his wife, he wouldn't have left obvious evidence/returned to the scene/admitted it to friends/left his hair and fibers all over the place/ had such a crappy alibi.... " etc.

 

[nosysw]

Gee Whiz!

I thought keeping up with 2 small kids was crazy! Trying to keep up with this case is beyond crazy!!!! TH and DS could have switched vehicles, cell phones, credit cards to throw timeline off since they look so much alike. I just hope they aren't as similar when it comes to behaving like an ice princess when a precious little peanut like Kyron is missing!

well it seems they are, but we really don't know...what with lawyers and all...

 

[Donjeta]

Now, I see that there are a good number of people that disagree with me...but riddle me this...what the heck did she do with Kyron while she was shopping?

Did she kick him out of the car onto an embankment on her way to the store?

Or did she strangle him in the parkinglot and cover him up with a blanket, unbuckle K, and proceed to shop (all while not being noticed)?

Ceratianly he wasn't at the store or they would have seen it. Did she just leave him in the truck and run the risk of someone seeing him?

Did she pass him off to someone in the parking lot?

Any chance that she simply took him home and came back to get him after shopping? IIRC their home is between the school and the stores where she shopped so it wouldn't have meant much more driving time.

It's not quite clear to me which parts of this timeline are confirmed by the police and which parts are what she says she was doing but not confirmed.

 

[daisy7]

Please continue here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471419#post5471419"]Sources detail Terri’s timeline day Kyron disappeared #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[stmarysmead]

I'm trying to look at Terri Horman's account of "The Long Ride" again....the one to soothe the Baby.

The police are called that very afternoon..so I'm assuming this was the first time Terri had to account for her whereabouts. THE SAME AFTERNOON! Absolutely, any of us would know that we'd have to account for OUR time in detail. ...a child is missing! So she would be making at least a mental list of where she'd been and what she'd done. Remember this is only hours after she'd done these things ...not days later.

I believe most of us could give a pretty detailed account, even considering emotion....so soon after these things happened. Yes, even for "The Long Ride" with Baby K! At least I could remember passing certain stores or landmarks..or wandering in certain subdivisions during my Long Ride. And, prior to that, I would know the stores where I shopped...and the Banks.

After all. don't most of us return to the same places to shop over and over?

IIRC police are asking for multiple store videos...is that because Terri cannot say which Grocery, which Bank? Hopefully, not...because in an area of this size, how many folks can be such random shoppers that they rarely return to the same Grocery store? And one would assume some of these errands of Terri's would involve receipts...grocery, bank, any purchase or transaction. Receipts are timed. Does Terri have receipts? Do the bank, stores or credit cards have receipts that show her going from place to place normally that day? I think Terri would feel pretty confident that this part of her timeline could be verified as to her truthfulness.

Has it been?

If Terri cannot say where she was shopping..or won't...if not, why not?

Now comes The Long Ride to soothe the Baby.

What was purchased at the grocery? Were any of the items perishable? IMO most women will not ride around for hours with perishables in the car....even to soothe a Baby. They take the groceries home first. I believe Terri does not go home until AFTER the gym...so the items are in the car all that time. What items did she buy? Do any need refrigeration? Yet she leaves them in the car for hours? Wanders through "The Long Ride" and then exercises with groceries in the car? We know she does not go home.

Another...if not, why not?

When Terri arrived at the Gym and puts Baby K in the nursery ...did she tell them her Little One was in pain from an earache? An earache that was so uncomfortable it took hours of driving to calm the child? Did she ask to be told if the pain started again? Again, I think most Mothers would. She had just wandered for hours to "soothe" her,so the Baby's pain would be on her mind. She's concerned, right? What if the ear pain flares up while she's working out? She would want to be called, right? Or has the Baby's pain suddenly dropped in priority to her workout?

Did she tell the nursery staff?

If not, why not?

Baby K seems to be long a long time without a diaper change from home...till the Gym Nursery at least. Did Terri change the Baby anywhere? Did she pull over somewhere on The Long Ride or do this in a store? Surely she did not let the Baby go unchanged from when she left home that morning till she got to the Gym or home from the Gym? What did the area look like where she pulled over to change Baby? Or what store did she stop in? When?

Did Baby K NOT get changed in all those hours?

If not, why not?

When was Baby K fed in that time frame if they did not go home? Or was she NOT fed?

Did Terri have food, bottles in the car? How many? How did she manage to have enough...if she did not plan for a long absence for "The Long Ride?" Did she not expect to be going home AFTER the errands?

If she was prepared with food, bottles, for a long stay away from home...from 7:30Am to mid-afternoon...why was she? She could not have anticipated The Long Drive.

Just wondering....

I think there are little ways this story seems "off" to me. Then you add in the "Murder-For-Hire" accusation that the police find credible enough to warn Kaine...the alleged problems with the polys....and everything looks more ominous.

Just my speculation...:waitasec:

 

[Donjeta]

Great post.

Regarding the grocery shopping, I don't know if there are receipts or sightings or camera footage or what but apparently she says she can prove she was shopping.

According to multiple sources, Terri Moulton Horman says she left Skyline School at 8:45 in the morning without Kyron the day he disappeared and that between 8:45 a.m. and 10:10 a.m. she ran errands at local grocery stores and can prove it.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/99151549.html

 

[Cajun Girl]

IMHO great and valid questions, stmary. If Terri truly went to the gym with her ailing child was it to catch a shower in a public place, thus allowing any of the days activities to simply wash down the drain?

So many questions, very few answers.

Where are you angel?

 

[AvalonBlue]

Great thread title, summation, and questions. Thank you for starting this thread.

And, I must say, when I first saw the words, "The Long Ride," my first thought was, "Oh No -- How Much Longer Will The Ride Be Before We Have Some Resolution About What Happened To Our Beloved Kyron?"

While waiting, I trust your thread will give all of us another useful venue in which to ponder and share our thoughts and feelings.

And, I know we are also collectively continuing to send unceasing prayers and love to KH, DY, and all who personally know sweet Ky as they walk the long road on the long ride to the truth -- and justice in this heartbreaking journey.

 

[BeanE]

Existing threads that discuss this extensively:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110743"]Sources detail Terri’s timeline day Kyron disappeared #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110103"]Sources detail Terri’s timeline day Kyron disappeared - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[AbbieNormal]

I don't know about you but if I had a baby/ child with an earache, rather than drive around for a hour (the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of) I would have spent that "hour" either going to the childs pediatrician or going to an urgent care center. I have never heard driving around soothes an earache nor does it solve the reason she supposedly had an earache in the first place.
Her story is not believeable. JMO Then she goes to the gym? How selfish can a mother be, has child w/ earache, does not seek medical attention, then goes to the gym? Jeez!

abbie