TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

[Tulessa]

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Lillelid murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just a spree killing or was it what some people said?

I know this case like the back of my hand. I grew up with the Bryants. Jason's aunt is now my next door neighbor. Sadly, after Jason's conviction, Arlan, Jason's father, hanged himself not long after the trial was over. Joy (Arlan's sister and my neighbor), said she was returning from the store, and seen Arlan out front, swinging from a tree. She was only gone for a few minutes.

 

[nerosleuth]

I just thought of something after reading the Nashville Scene article and comments again.

Regarding the small bible in Kathy's purse, do you know if there were any pages missing from the bible or if the bible was defaced in any way?

 

[December]

I know this case like the back of my hand. I grew up with the Bryants. Jason's aunt is now my next door neighbor. Sadly, after Jason's conviction, Arlan, Jason's father, hanged himself not long after the trial was over. Joy (Arlan's sister and my neighbor), said she was returning from the store, and seen Arlan out front, swinging from a tree. She was only gone for a few minutes.

OMG, how sad.

I'm sorry to have rekindled such sad memories. :grouphug:

 

[December]

I just thought of something after reading the Nashville Scene article and comments again.

Regarding the small bible in Kathy's purse, do you know if there were any pages missing from the bible or if the bible was defaced in any way?

I have not ever heard anything about the condition of the Bible.

I wonder, if there was anything wrong with it, if that would be the kind of thing the police would hold back. Although maybe the papers wouldn't have reported something like those details even if the police didn't keep it back...

I don't know if the Bible was returned to Kathy's mother or if the police kept it. I could ask the police.... If Nora got it back, it is very likely in Kathy's hands because no one close to her ever mentioned having it.

 

[December]

Doing research for this case, I have learned there is a Coleman Park in every state or almost every state as well as some provinces in Canada. I just find that a little odd. I guess I didn't think it was that common of a name.

ETA
Coleman Park is at 384 Thompson Lane

I have just emailed Stevon Nelon, the facility coordinator, to see if he knows how long the park has been there.

Eta 2
and i asked who is it named after...

 

[December]

I just realized a place not too far from where Kathy disappeared that she could've been taken. It runs right along Nolensville Road... it is where the Nashville Zoo is! The Nashville Zoo (if it is even still open) did not even exist until the 1990s. (Well, there may have been another zoo, much earlier, but it was in a different location.)

There were two sisters who'd been left a lot of real estate by their family. They have a huge amount of land beside Nolensville Road. They might have built a house or two on it, but otherwise it was totally natural and full of trees, etc. If you look at the map and see all the land for the zoo, that was it and it was virtually empty... just one or two houses on the whole thing.

ETA
They gave it to the city, btw. In their wills, I believe. Even after the city got it, they didn't develop it right away because this gift had strings attached. The women wanted it to be a zoo or something similar. I guess they must have known the other woman who was betrayed by the developer of 100 Oaks.

eta2
i just remembered Grassmere Park was at the zoo location prior to the zoo, but it did not open until decades after Kathy died.

 

[December]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_Zoo_at_Grassmere

There is a 'plantation' type of home still on zoo property, it's where the name 'Grassmere' originated. It is also called the Croft House.

 

[December]

http://m.nashvillezoo.org/

zoo website it is 3777 nolensville rd

 

[December]

http://www.nashvillezoo.org/grassmere-historic-home

info about grassmere historic home (built in 1810)
and the dunn family
shows house, stables, etc.

 

[December]

I googled 'satanism in tennessee' last night and came up with a number of links and stories. i read quite a few of them. i didn't want to bog the thread down with all of it. if i find something specific from the time period or the area between, then i'll post it. but, suffice to say, there is a lot more than i thought and i can't believe it all sprang up over night.

there are a few possibilities existing, it could be different groups were attacking girls during this time period. therefore, despite being abducted on the same day, kathy and glenda were abducted by two different people. or, it could be they were abducted by different people belonging to the same group who came together.

the poor condition of little glenda's body when she was found makes it hard to guess how similar the attacks may have been.

btw, there are groups that do bad things who also meet under the banner of 'satanism'. but, they don't worship the devil or anything like that. a superficial overlay of what people think of as 'satanism' (images from popular culture) is nothing other than camoflague. this way if anyone does see and tries to tell, it is altogether possible they will be dismissed as a nutcase because there is this perception that satanism doesn't exist. or things along those lines.

there is a story online about a woman who was abused by people in black robes (this happened to her regularly). one day, she put together the fact that other than wearing black robes they did nothing to indicate it was any sort of ritual or even a meeting. but, the black robes made it difficult for her to see who was who. it was just a way to throw her off as to what was happening.

 

[December]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._1_elgin-ritual-slaying-rookie-police-officer

Here is an article about the Ripper Crew of Chicago. It has some graphic details, but is one of the more carefully worded accounts of what the vile creatures did. They mostly attacked prostitutes, but they snatched a few women who were not prostitutes. The woman in this story had simply stopped at a store to buy some cigarettes.

But, here is what the Ripper Crew was
-Satanists who killed women to attain power (there are articles that describe what they did)
-A group of male murderers and perverts who were working together
-A group of murderers who used a van to abduct their victims (as it was a group, someone could drive while others pulled the woman inside and kept her out of sight)
-A group of murderers and satanists who could blend in and keep moving
-Murderers who were brought down only because one victim, thank God, lived and escaped (so she gave the police the information)

They were active in the early 80s. Their leader once worked for John Wayne Gacy.

They are in prison, but this article is about finding evidence that to link them to an unsolved cold case. Maybe since this woman was not a prostitute and because it sounds like she was only outside her car for a few minutes, no one linked her to them.

One of the murderers told his cell mate about killing the woman in this article.

These guys are too young to have anything to do with Kathy and in the wrong state. But, it gives me a new perspective on how she 'vanished' so quickly. Did a van pause beside her? Did two grown men pull her inside? I just have to wonder...

 

[December]

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/10774294/police-work-to-solve-cold-case-murders-of-young-girls

published 7/22/2009

Investigators said the Kathy Jones case seems to be most promising when it came to getting the DNA profile of the killer.

Eight years after the murder police charged a man with Jones' killing, but dropped the charges later. Police said he was still a suspect.

 

[Betty P]

Add me to the list of those who read the first page of this thread and couldn't stop. While there's limited information to read about this poor, sweet girl's death, the Nashville Scene article seemed to provide the most information helpful to getting a profile of the killer.

From the details we know, it seems to me like the killer was definitely a sexual sadist, as are most criminals who kill children. Here are some characteristics of a killer who seem to fit this murder:

Mysoped child molester and killer

1. Sadist; has made the connection between sexual gratification and personal violence

2. Usually male

3. Typically the victim is a stranger to the aggressor

4. May stalk the child rather than use a form of seduction; may take victim by force using his size as an advantage

5. Abducts children from playgrounds, schools, shopping centers, and other places children gather

6. Has no “love” for children; only interested in causing harm and eventual death to a vulnerable victim

7. Crime is premeditated and ritualized

8. Example would be Albert Fish

http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/CrimPsych/CPSG-6.htm

From the link above, past research shows most of these killers are male (97%) and white. The average age is 27 (data from the study showed 72% were younger than 30.

Gender: All offenders were male; females did abduct, but none killed
Age: Mean was 27, range was 14–58, 72% were younger than 30
Race: majority white, interpret with caution
Marital history: 60% were not married at time of offense, 24% were divorced, 8% were in common law marriages, 8% were married
Children: 56% had no children at time of offense, 16% only had one child, 20% had two children, no one had three children, and 8% had four or more children
Education: Little formal education; only 8% had some college education
Occupation: Most had lower-level unskilled jobs, only 8% had skilled positions
Military: 76% did not have military history
Religion: 88% grew up in a Christian household and 72% still considered themselves Christian
Animal abuse: 20% had history of animal abuse
Psychiatric: 36% had a psychiatric diagnosis prior to offense, perhaps an underestimate
Family background: 56% lived with both biological parents during childhood, 40% had mothers that were unemployed, 16% reported having occasional instability and disruption in their household
Family incarceration: 24% reported at least one parent had been incarcerated
Offender incarceration history: 40% had previous incarceration, almost half had a juvenile offense history
Childhood behavior patterns: Chronic problems from birth to age 12, including enuresis, isolation, lying, arson, and alcohol and drug abuse
Adolescent behavior patterns: Increase in drug and alcohol abuse, isolation was significant problem, and decrease in enuresis and arson
Adult behavior patterns: No one reported enuresis; lower levels of arson and lying; drug and alcohol abuse were elevated
Sexual behavior history: 28% were sexually molested, 20% had printed collection, no one had video collection, 88% were heterosexual, 20% identified themselves as pedophiles
Psychopathy: Only 4 of 20 offenders classified as psychopaths

There's also a subcategory of sexual sadism called picquerism involving ritual cutting or stabbing of a victim to enhance sexual gratification.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QX...epage&q=richard walter sexual sadists&f=false

A couple of years ago, I read a book about the Vidoq Society, a group of mostly retired murder investigators who meet once a month to discuss difficult cold cases. One of the members is Richard Walters, a psychologist who has spent most of his career working with sexual criminals in a penitentiary. I thought of his analysis of sexual sadists and their MO when I read this case. The book excerpt above discusses some of his ideas about how these creatures derive sexual pleasure from degrading their victims and instilling fear in them for as long as possible.

The person who killed Kathy was an experienced sexual sadist.

He probably stalked her and other kids in the neighborhood for some time before choosing his target. The roller rink and donut shop were perfect places for him to stalk victims. Snatching was quick, and he probably used a vehicle to get away.

Since she disappeared on Saturday evening and her TOD was sometime Monday, he kept her while he played out his fantasies. Sadists don't like to complete the act quickly. You can read more at the link above.

Their usual MO makes it unlikely they would abduct and abuse more than one child at a time - it would be too much work and worry about a possible escape and would ruin their focus on the ritual.

He would have lived alone or would have access to an isolated, private location near his home. He's obsessed with his sexual perversions and wouldn't want to waste a lot of time driving round. Because he kept her for two days, he had prepared in advance.

He likely acted alone, as sexual sadists are very selfish, narcissistic people who are obsessively focused on living out their own fantasy. They don't care about others.

He may have held a regular job, so had murder her by Monday or risk her escaping while he was away. He probably waited until after work Monday night to dispose of her body.

He dumped her body close by because he wanted to taunt police, a sick way of showing pride in his "work". Since he likely had done this before, and planned it in advance, he was confident he wouldn't get caught.

He probably also kept a souvenir or two, and may explain why some of her clothing or possessions were missing. Since he planned the crime in advance, he probably had a good alibi, too.

He may have been a serial killer, was surely a serial molester. His crime spree was probably interrupted when he left the area, died or was jailed.

IMO, the man you referred to earlier, now jailed in Nashville, is a very good candidate. His timeline, age, living address and previous criminal record fit. He's also a narcissistic sociopath, good at lying and operating under the radar and likely to engage in other types of crime. At the time, LE just didn't know enough about this type of criminal to know what questions to ask, what details to look for.

I hope this doesn't sound too clinical. I'm trying hard to describe this in a way that doesn't upset the family members or sicken myself at the horrible details of this poor girl's death. As you said, December, God was with her and protected her spirit. Prayers and sympathy to you and your family.

 

[December]

^^
the above link also talks about Wanda June Anderson and Eva Green.

But, by the line about DNA, they definitely have something from the murderer. I don't know what it is or how they obtained it, but I don't know how else to read that.

Despite what was written by the Scene in 98 Channel 5 writing 11 years later reports that police still considered Adcox a suspect.

(link about refers to my post, post 434 on this thread)

 

[bessie]

^^
the above link also talks about Wanda June Anderson and Eva Green.

But, by the line about DNA, they definitely have something from the murderer. I don't know what it is or how they obtained it, but I don't know how else to read that.

Despite what was written by the Scene in 98 Channel 5 writing 11 years later reports that police still considered Adcox a suspect.

(link about refers to my post, post 434 on this thread)

I'm still doubtful because of the statement in the Scene article which says very little evidence was retained.

Because there was no medical examiner at the time of Jones’ death, no autopsy was performed. There was no such thing as DNA testing either, and blood tests were rarely used. As a result, little physical evidence was taken from the crime scene.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

Of course, the Scene article was written in 1998. By 2009, when the other article was written, advances had been made. It might have been become possible to develop a DNA profile from some piece of remaining evidence.

If that's true, then we can rule out any of the known perps/suspects, which goes back to the theory that the killer either didn't live in the area. I read the article to mean Adcox was still a suspect after the charges were dropped, but not necessarily by 1998 when Miller said the new team had concluded he was not the right guy. JMO.

 

[bessie]

Add me to the list of those who read the first page of this thread and couldn't stop. While there's limited information to read about this poor, sweet girl's death, the Nashville Scene article seemed to provide the most information helpful to getting a profile of the killer.

From the details we know, it seems to me like the killer was definitely a sexual sadist, as are most criminals who kill children. Here are some characteristics of a killer who seem to fit this murder:

http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/CrimPsych/CPSG-6.htm

From the link above, past research shows most of these killers are male (97%) and white. The average age is 27 (data from the study showed 72% were younger than 30.

There's also a subcategory of sexual sadism called picquerism involving ritual cutting or stabbing of a victim to enhance sexual gratification.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QX...epage&q=richard walter sexual sadists&f=false

A couple of years ago, I read a book about the Vidoq Society, a group of mostly retired murder investigators who meet once a month to discuss difficult cold cases. One of the members is Richard Walters, a psychologist who has spent most of his career working with sexual criminals in a penitentiary. I thought of his analysis of sexual sadists and their MO when I read this case. The book excerpt above discusses some of his ideas about how these creatures derive sexual pleasure from degrading their victims and instilling fear in them for as long as possible.

The person who killed Kathy was an experienced sexual sadist.

He probably stalked her and other kids in the neighborhood for some time before choosing his target. The roller rink and donut shop were perfect places for him to stalk victims. Snatching was quick, and he probably used a vehicle to get away.

Since she disappeared on Saturday evening and her TOD was sometime Monday, he kept her while he played out his fantasies. Sadists don't like to complete the act quickly. You can read more at the link above.

Their usual MO makes it unlikely they would abduct and abuse more than one child at a time - it would be too much work and worry about a possible escape and would ruin their focus on the ritual.

He would have lived alone or would have access to an isolated, private location near his home. He's obsessed with his sexual perversions and wouldn't want to waste a lot of time driving round. Because he kept her for two days, he had prepared in advance.

He likely acted alone, as sexual sadists are very selfish, narcissistic people who are obsessively focused on living out their own fantasy. They don't care about others.

He may have held a regular job, so had murder her by Monday or risk her escaping while he was away. He probably waited until after work Monday night to dispose of her body.

He dumped her body close by because he wanted to taunt police, a sick way of showing pride in his "work". Since he likely had done this before, and planned it in advance, he was confident he wouldn't get caught.

He probably also kept a souvenir or two, and may explain why some of her clothing or possessions were missing. Since he planned the crime in advance, he probably had a good alibi, too.

He may have been a serial killer, was surely a serial molester. His crime spree was probably interrupted when he left the area, died or was jailed.

IMO, the man you referred to earlier, now jailed in Nashville, is a very good candidate. His timeline, age, living address and previous criminal record fit. He's also a narcissistic sociopath, good at lying and operating under the radar and likely to engage in other types of crime. At the time, LE just didn't know enough about this type of criminal to know what questions to ask, what details to look for.

I hope this doesn't sound too clinical. I'm trying hard to describe this in a way that doesn't upset the family members or sicken myself at the horrible details of this poor girl's death. As you said, December, God was with her and protected her spirit. Prayers and sympathy to you and your family.

Betty, you might like to read the thread on Carol Ann Dougherty. We discussed the Vidocq Society in that case.

PA PA - Carol Ann Dougherty, 9, Bristol, 1962 - Raped/Strangled in a Catholic Church - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I generally agree with most of what you've written. I believe he was a sexual sadist who acted alone. He would have committed previous crimes, and was confident he could escape detection. Stalking I'm not so sure about. Many predators act on opportunity, though he might have been familiar enough with the area to know that on a Saturday night, kids would be going to the skating rink and/or the donut shop. As for a souvenir, it's possible. A glove maybe?

I question whether he held her at another location. One of the earliest articles said LE thought the attack took place where she was found. This is what I believe also, because of the crime scene description. The positioning of her body on its side, with her left knee pulled up to her chest; belongings scattered about, some clothes "crumpled" next to her body, but "wadded" panties against her chest; and one skate standing on its wheels next to her thigh; all of that sounds like a picture of an attack scene, not a dump site, IMO.

No autopsy was performed, and in fact, her body was taken directly to the funeral home. Time of death, IMVHO, is questionable. It might have been earlier than Monday morning. What about the puncture wound to her chest? It could be that the attack took place right there, and I hate to think this at all, but she might have lay unconscious for hours until she finally expired some time early on Sunday.

Suffocation was said to be cause of death because the sock was pushed down into her throat, but without an autopsy how could they could be certain? No M.E., and the body was only examined at the scene. And the investigator didn't even find the sock! So who knows for sure how she died, or when. I'm not knocking LE. I do believe that the detectives who had this case worked hard to solve it, but it does seem that the inital investigation was not handled as well as it should have been. IMVHO. It's a terrible shame that the killer of this precious child was never brought to justice, and like Glenda Sirmans' family, and so many others, Kathy's family has suffered for over forty years without answers.

According to a coroner’s report, she had been viciously raped. The official cause of death, the coroner stated, was suffocation. A funeral home attendant found one of her bobbie socks, cut in half and stuffed down her throat.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

Police said the nude, blue-eyed victim apparently had been dead since Saturday night when she was probably attacked while walking to the Roller Drome Skating Rink 523 Thompson Lane.

The body was not moved by attendant CG of Ellis Funeral Home until the arrival of BW, special investigator from the district attorney's office.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FEATURED TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969


(She was still wearing the other sock. It would be helpful to know if the half of the other sock not used as a gag was found at the scene.)

 

[December]

BettyP, thank you for your detailed post as well as your kind words. I appreciate you reading the thread and spending time trying to think of ways to help Kathy.

I am not sure if anything was missing. It is possible because the Scene doesn't mention her street shoes. But, I seem to have the memory that the laces were tied together and they were carelessly thrown in the weeds (but, I could be wrong about that because I'm just now remembering it). It was dear little Glenda Sirmans whose clothes were partially missing, but those had been scattered by animals. However, the Scene only mentions one of Kathy's little gloves. The other one might have been under her coat or in her purse though.

(I'll try to find out for certain about whether or not anything was missing.)

It is all right to get technical with me. I studied psychology (I have a minor with many extra hours... I didn't take the classes people typically take when they get a minor in psychology... although this does leave me weak in abnormal psychology). If I do not understand something, I will ask or look it up.

Also, as long as what is written is written in the spirit of wanting to help... I am willing to read anything. Nothing anyone can write can be as bad as what Kathy endured. And if it helps us think of a useful avenue to sleuth, I think it is worth it. I believe if the crime was obvious then it would have been solved in 1969. Then, when they started looking at DNA, if all they lacked was a last bit of forsenic evidence that would have solved it. I'm just saying this part to explain why I'm willing to look into even strange or upsetting things.

Although I'm slightly terrified to read anything more about Fish. His antics are something I've read of before, but I will read the link and consider how it might relate to Kathy's murderer.

Do you believe such a person would prefer Roller Drome or Krispy Kreme? I have also considered that, if it wasn't Adcox, maybe he lurked around the RD bus. I assume kids must have walked out to it to get on it and ride home. If he watched the kids skating and then going to the bus, he could chose one perhaps walking by herself. Or the early bird (other people would assume she went home another way) or straggler (other people would assume she missed the bus). Anyway, just a new angle I've been thinking about. Because this way, he buys himself time (unless he is seen by someone) while the cops question and blame Adcox (who was plenty guilty of other things).

I will need to study these statistics etcetera in depth...

I will also look into the information about the ritual cutting. I had just assumed they did it to terrify her. And maybe to force her to do something or other they wanted her to do that moment. I suppose I need to try to find out, if possible, when some of these wounds were inflicted. I theorize the neck wounds were done one by one over a period of time. But, I thought they might be drinking her blood. It is, I have read, like a drug because it's full of adrenaline and other chemicals secreted to try to help her run away (except she couldn't... which I've read causes even more chemicals). This may be an out there kind of explanation and maybe the more mundane explanation... he cut her because he REALLY enjoyed it... is the truth.

Your point about him needing to go back to work Monday is excellent. I do not know why I didn't think of it, but you are very likely right about how that played out (or very close, at least). It is hard to imagine such creeps having jobs, but even Dahmer had a job.

I had wondered if he snatched Glenda, but something went wrong... maybe he thought he was about to be discovered before he could get her stowed in the car for example. So, he murdered Glenda. But, he was very unhappy because it was over too quickly. So he went looking for another girl and found Kathy. Since he was mad about not getting to drag out Glenda's murder, he was particularly brutal with Kathy. That upsets me, but I do believe he was mad at her (for an idiotic reason, of course, murderers are whiny). I get that he enjoyed hurting her and her injuries were mostly from that, but murderers get mad at their victims pretty often it seems.

How close do you think his abuse/rape area was to where he left her? Do you think he might have sneaked onto the land that later became the zoo (which was mostly undeveloped then)? there are buildings like stables that were there in 1969. The two ladies who owned it made their deal with the city of Nashville in 1964. So, they were elderly (or late middle age) then. They might have even been out of town, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for the murderer to assume they probably wouldn't go to an unused out building... even a big outbuilding... without a very good reason. So, if he made sure they saw no lights nor heard no screams, he might feel (and he was right) he was safe from discovery.

The alibi is another thing... with it being a holiday weekend... there would be ways to fudge an alibi that looked pretty tight. Especially if he was careful and planned in advance. The police interviewed many suspects the first few days.

My theory is he lived near her neighborhood, but not IN her neighborhood. This way he would have a legitimate reason to be in the area, but he would have less danger of being observed throughout the day... day in and out.. by neighbors of the kids he stalked Etcetera.

I do understand the details of Kathy's death are very upsetting. This is one reason I try to phrase things carefully as possible. I try to be brave, but there are sometimes things I cannot type. I just can't say it about her.. or anyone else for that matter. So I appreciate when anyone really looks at what we have available. The murder has upset the police even. And they all have seen numerous murders. The police now are just looking at photos and it's that bad. It breaks my heart. If I didn't have the comfort of believing God was taking care of her now, I don't know what I'd do. But, I just keep reminding myself that although she needs and deserves justice, she is with Jesus. And so are so many people she loved.

 

[December]

I'm still doubtful because of the statement in the Scene article which says very little evidence was retained.
http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

Of course, the Scene article was written in 1998. By 2009, when the other article was written, advances had been made. It might have been become possible to develop a DNA profile from some piece of remaining evidence.

If that's true, then we can rule out any of the known perps/suspects, which goes back to the theory that the killer either didn't live in the area. I read the article to mean Adcox was still a suspect after the charges were dropped, but not necessarily by 1998 when Miller said the new team had concluded he was not the right guy. JMO.

I have thought over what they may have... something that had to belong to the killer that they could've found under the circumstances.

I think it is a hair. Like the kind of man's hair that would not normally be anywhere around Kathy. One that no way could have accidentally fallen on her when people were standing around her. Maybe it was found somewhere on her body (in a not so accessible place) at the funeral home. Someone at the funeral home found the bBobbie Sox, for example.

Even back then, there were things they could do to compare one hair to another. It wouldn't be as good of evidence as it is now, but it was good enough that they saved it. Just speculation.

I cannot explain it, but the article is definitely talking about Adcox. He is the only one who was almost prosecuted eight years after the crime. Maybe he got put back into the suspect pool for whatever reason. I don't know why or how that would be, but there is no one else they could be discussing. There is something about Adcox that they've never really disclosed. They keep talking around it. Maybe that would explain why he went from a 'no' in 1998 to a 'possible' in 2009. I don't get the feeling he was their prime suspect any more.

It does seem like DNA would rule him out, but maybe they did not have his DNA. l don't know when he was in prison last, for I example. i know they said he was cooperating back in the nineties, but maybe he just came in for interviews. I don't think they could take DNA from rims of cups yet back then.

Or maybe they just have a more detailed DNA profile in 2009? IDK?

Of course, Adcox is dead.

 

[bessie]

I have thought over what they may have... something that had to belong to the killer that they could've found under the circumstances.

I think it is a hair. Like the kind of man's hair that would not normally be anywhere around Kathy. One that no way could have accidentally fallen on her when people were standing around her. Maybe it was found somewhere on her body (in a not so accessible place) at the funeral home. Someone at the funeral home found the bBobbie Sox, for example.

Even back then, there were things they could do to compare one hair to another. It wouldn't be as good of evidence as it is now, but it was good enough that they saved it. Just speculation.

I cannot explain it, but the article is definitely talking about Adcox. He is the only one who was almost prosecuted eight years after the crime. Maybe he got put back into the suspect pool for whatever reason. I don't know why or how that would be, but there is no one else they could be discussing. There is something about Adcox that they've never really disclosed. They keep talking around it. Maybe that would explain why he went from a 'no' in 1998 to a 'possible' in 2009. I don't get the feeling he was their prime suspect any more.

It does seem like DNA would rule him out, but maybe they did not have his DNA. l don't know when he was in prison last, for I example. i know they said he was cooperating back in the nineties, but maybe he just came in for interviews. I don't think they could take DNA from rims of cups yet back then.

Or maybe they just have a more detailed DNA profile in 2009? IDK?

Of course, Adcox is dead.

Regarding the bolded paragraph, this is the problem. Suppose hairs were found on Kathy's body, or fibers, let's say. If it was discovered by a funeral home employee, it's useless as evidence because a proper chain of custody wasn't maintained. Not to mention, there was no rape kit. Perhaps the first team did have evidence tying the murder to Adcox. It would have been useless because the initial investigation was botched, and that explains why the D.A. wouldn't send the case to a grand jury.

ETA: Since we're discussing profiles, this is a source I've bookmarked. Note on p. 334, third paragraph, where the profiler discusses the importance of the crime scene in developing a profile. It's interesting.

http://www.aapdp.org/documents/uplo...ws_A_Profile_of_the_Hunter_and_the_Hunted.pdf

This describes a disorganized crime scene.

2. Disorganized Crime Scenes
The criminal shows no planning or premeditation. Motive of the crime is impulse, rage or some other
intense emotional state. Spontaneous actions and turbulent assaults results in chaotic crime scene.
Victim selected at random and crime scene is usually where the encounter took place. So, Victim is
often by chance like is at the wrong place at the wrong time. Usually, the offender uses materials at
hand. Hurried or blitz-style attack, and crime scene is disarrayed.

Characteristics of Disorganized Crime Scenes
1. Body left at death scene
2. Spontaneous offense
3. Evidence or weapon present at scene
4. Victim or location known
5. Body left in view
6. Depersonalizes victim
8. Minimal conversation
10. Crime scene is sloppy
11. Sudden violence to victim

http://www.zeepedia.com/read.php?in...tigation_staging_forensic_psychology&b=87&c=7
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[December]

Betty, you might like to read the thread on Carol Ann Dougherty. We discussed the Vidocq Society in that case.

PA PA - Carol Ann Dougherty, 9, Bristol, 1962 - Raped/Strangled in a Catholic Church - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I generally agree with most of what you've written. I believe he was a sexual sadist who acted alone. He would have committed previous crimes, and was confident he could escape detection. Stalking I'm not so sure about. Many predators act on opportunity, though he might have been familiar enough with the area to know that on a Saturday night, kids would be going to the skating rink and/or the donut shop. As for a souvenir, it's possible. A glove maybe?

I question whether he held her at another location. One of the earliest articles said LE thought the attack took place where she was found. This is what I believe also, because of the crime scene description. The positioning of her body on its side, with her left knee pulled up to her chest; belongings scattered about, some clothes "crumpled" next to her body, but "wadded" panties against her chest; and one skate standing on its wheels next to her thigh; all of that sounds like a picture of an attack scene, not a dump site, IMO.

No autopsy was performed, and in fact, her body was taken directly to the funeral home. Time of death, IMVHO, is questionable. It might have been earlier than Monday morning. What about the puncture wound to her chest? It could be that the attack took place right there, and I hate to think this at all, but she might have lay unconscious for hours until she finally expired some time early on Sunday.

Suffocation was said to be cause of death because the sock was pushed down into her throat, but without an autopsy how could they could be certain? No M.E., and the body was only examined at the scene. And the investigator didn't even find the sock! So who knows for sure how she died, or when. I'm not knocking LE. I do believe that the detectives who had this case worked hard to solve it, but it does seem that the inital investigation was not handled as well as it should have been. IMVHO. It's a terrible shame that the killer of this precious child was never brought to justice, and like Glenda Sirmans' family, and so many others, Kathy's family has suffered for over forty years without answers.
http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FEATURED TN - Kathy Jones, 12, murdered while walking to Nashville skating rink, November 1969


(She was still wearing the other sock. It would be helpful to know if the half of the other sock not used as a gag was found at the scene.)

(sigh) I just spent literally hours writing an answer to this post and I lost it because Weather Bug (which someone else put on my computer) decided it needed to load an ad! I could cry!

I will try to reconstruct what I said. I'm so frustrated! So, please bear with me.

I agree that the scene looked, from what the Scene described anyway, like a crime scene. And maybe part of the crime did take place there. I just can't figure out how it could all take place there. Although, you do make a good point and maybe he took her there as the last thing. Mockingly he threw all of her things.. her prize possessions down onto the ground. They were wadded up and he threw them all down like trash.

I have read that several types of injuries (like those inflicted by a murderer) cause the victim to suffocate. A broken neck, for example, often causes the victim to die of suffocation. Then there was the half sock shoved down her little throat. It would give him pleasure to watch her knowing she couldn't scream or breathe.

Then the is the puncture wound. It sounds somewhat deep therefore it sounds like it may have done some serious damage to her body.

All these things.. came after the other tortures.

Then there is hypothermia.
http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml

The low of 11/29/69 was 23 degrees. The high was 46 degrees. But, a little girl on the cold ground with no clothing to protect her when it is only 23 degrees... it is horrible to think about. Close to the end, a person reaches a state where they appear dead. Their pulse is difficult to detect, they are cold, and their body becomes rigid. If they do not receive medical attention, they will die. (as an aside, unrelated to this, I learned that someone can suffer from mild hypothermia in a house that is too cold for them.. but not cold at all to healthy people, pretty interesting)

The hypothermia alone means little. And if he put her into a situation where she developed hypothermia, he may have enjoyed it. Maybe that is the state he wanted her to be in before he .. did what he did to her. But, it didn't stay so far below freezing.. it did warm back up. Not that this would revive her, but I'm just saying she wouldn't have been frozen like the Grimes sisters were because the weather just wasn't consistently cold enough. (I'm just thinking aloud.)

If the guy raped her there, several times, it seems like it would have churned up the dirt and torn up the grass. Both he and she would have been dirty. I guess if he lived close by, he could go off to his house and get himself in order. But, I didn't get the impression she had dirt of her when found. Or abrasians to her back (but it is possible people did not want to mention such a thing). Of anything about the weeds being crushed down.

Then there's the locale.. it is hard for me to imagine no one would hear or see. I know the one woman who lived next door to the lot where Kathy was found, said she heard nothing unusual. But, it seems like it would have made noise.. even if Kathy herself was totally silent. Everyone would have realized that guy was doing something in the vacant lot. If they let it go on by at first, as soon as Kathy was found, they would all decide it was time to drag him to the police station. Yet no one seems to have seen or heard anything. (From what I've read, it is possible some article somewhere has more details.)

I have been in that area late at night (not alone,but also not realizing there were numerous criminals milling about constantly.. yipes). Anyway, sound carries. If he'd figured out the train schedule, he could time things to get dw

Back when the Banner still existed, I used to read it and The Tennessean every day. The Banner had a habit, then at least, of picking up a story from the The Tennessean and adding their own spin on it. Some of their articles were all right, but sometimes.. they just were... From what my father said about the Banner (I got my newspaper reading habit from him), they had always been that way.

Well, I would like to see other newspapers besides the Banner. Because I don't trust them all by themselves. They did sometimes print things that were lacking in some details, if you will. I have not yet been able to go to Nashville and look through the papers at the library. I do searches every way I can think of to try to find another little piece of information I didn't have before.

Kathy was originally thought to be a runaway. Basically because she was a kid and she wasn't at home. There was no other reason to think it. When she was found dead, this proved she had never run away. She had been abducted that night she was reported missing.

I think this is what the Banner was told and they ran it as she had been murdered the night she went missing. Remember, they also trumpeted "sex crime" in the headline. Nora had to explain that Kathy was not interested in boys yet because of the Banner. This is why she said Kathy wasn't interested in lipstick and nylons.. because of the Banner. I know it was 1969, but surely they knew what rape was and Kathy was only 12.

I doubt the reporter from the Banner saw what happened to Kathy. My father did see it. This could not have all happened in the few hours remaining of 11/29/69. The thing the Scene article is missing is Kathy had been beaten severely. What they do mentioned is she had been raped more than once.

She was raped more than one way multiple times and violently. She was beaten, she was stabbed several times (though some of the wounds perhaps weren't deep), she was bound and gagged with her clothing, her purse was rifled through... All of her things were wadded up and thrown down. This takes some time...

I agree the time of death might be off. But, I just don't think it is possible to move it up as far as the Banner article would move it. There had to be time to do all of these things.

Also, unless the lot was fenced (and it may have been though no fence is mentioned.. there is a chain link fence there now, the grass is now mown), then the neighborhood dogs would have carried off half of her clothes just as they did in the case of little Glenda. But, either all or at least most of her stuff was there. Including her playing cards which were thrown down on the ground.

It just seems like this couldn't have stayed this way for so long without anyone noticing it when there were only so many vacant lots near a place where she as specifically going. So... I guess this is where I have some trouble.

Here is what makes me mad and why I am going to be a little upset.. we ought to have autopsy results to go by!

Nashville did not have a real ME, fine, o.k. But, if ever a crime called out for a total autopsy, this crime did! There are medical schools in Nashville. There is Vanderbilt! Was there no one they could appeal to there who might have come and done a thorough autopsy so whatever evidence there was to glean, the police would have been given it in 1969 or early 1970.

Then we would KNOW the time of death. And we would KNOW whether she had been moved. We would just know a lot more.

Now, the current police have looked over the evidence thoroughly. They seem pretty o.k. with the later time of death. So, this is yet another reason why the Banner, I think was talking out of their hat as they did sometimes. They had some useful information in the article, there is no doubt.

But, I would like to get some more articles from early Dec. 1969.

I hope this includes, more or less, all of the stuff I covered. Thanks for reading. I'm pretty tired and I hope Weather Bug doesn't need to load another ad!