TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

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  • #461
Here is the Krispy Kreme history section of their site. In both the 40-50 and 60-70 section, you can see a photo of a van.

I was thinking... what if someone had bought an old van they sold off? witnesses may not have thought anything of that and just thought it was one of the regular kk vans.

eta my phone is not pasting the link... wait a secone
 
  • #462
  • #463
respectfully snipped
The sock has bothered me as well. I wonder if she started swallowing it (accidentally) when she was involuntarily gasping and trying to breathe. And he tried to get it out and cut it then (Not to help her, just because he wasn't ready for her to die yet)? Unless the whole thing just wouldn't fit. Weren't bobbie socks different from regular white socks in that they had a thicker cuff? Maybe that's what he cut off.
Bobbie socks have thick cuffs, which is why I think the sock was cut because when rolled up it was too thick to use as a gag. I mentioned earlier that I'd like to know if the unused half of the sock was found at the scene. If it were, that would support the notion that the attack occurred where K's body was found. And vice versa if not present.

Also, using the victim's own clothing to bind them is a technique used by a certain type of person who has received training. The reason they do this is because then what evidence does this leave the cops? Nothing. They can't trace down ropes by manufacturer or anything like that because it all belongs to the victim. In this case, the victim is a kid and probably most of her stuff was bought in just a few stores right around where she lived. Her mom would know every piece of clothing where is came from, but that isn't going to help solve the crime. (just thinking aloud)
When the victim's clothing is used in an attack, it is often the work of a disorganized attacker who acts on impulse and opportunity. Sometimes it's a signature, as in the case of John Norman Collins, the Michigan Co-ed killer, who used both the victims' clothing, and other objects, like an electrical cord and a tree branch, in one instance.
 
  • #464
December, when you joined WS a few months ago, I encountered you on several threads and thought, wow, here's a new poster who is really jumping right in with some very insightful posts. But I did not realize, then, that you had joined largely for Kathy's case -- I had read in her thread before a little, but before you came along. You are really delving into her case for her, and you have some great help joining in, too. I wish you well -- would love to see this one solved!

I am so glad to see her case featured and hope it will help somehow to bring some things to light/needed action. It is just horrendous, what happened to Kathy. I see how it would haunt a family and community for many years, especially unsolved.

It is tragic, to me, too, that there was no autopsy. As you say -- if only there had been, so many questions might have answers.

So -- bessie, you stated no rape kit -- you think nothing of that sort, not even some rudimentary version? No fingernail clippings, etc.? The coroner did say she was raped, but I guess that was from the obvious physical damage, then?

December, I was kind of thinking, like you mentioned, that there may have been semen on some of her clothing or other possessions, possibly from the perp "cleaning up", as you said -- or maybe even something really bizarre like excrement at the scene (it seems some really out-of-control violent perps do that).

I haven't finished reading all the newer posts (since December came along and since being featured), but I will try to get up to speed. Not sure how I feel about whether the bulk of the attack occurred right where she was found -- December and bessie have both made good points, IMO, toward the two different possibilities.

One thing that crossed my mind -- if it turns out to be true that the grass wasn't crushed, Kathy's body wasn't dirty from the ground, etc. -- what about the idea that she may have been attacked inside a vehicle? You know, especially something like a van or delivery truck -- OR that bus. It could have been parked very close by -- maybe even IN the vacant lot -- and Kathy and her belongings just dropped out on the ground afterwards.

I wonder -- the part of her sock used as a gag, was it torn or cut? Seems it would be hard to tear a sock, but I don't know. Attacker must have had something sharp to inflict the wounds, guess he could have used that. But I wonder WHY he would have taken the time/trouble to cut/tear the sock, anyhow -- it doesn't seem like it would make that much difference in size, it was just a sock. Maybe just one more opportunity to use his big bad knife or whatever he had -- ugghh. Just one little curious thing, to me.
BW, I reached that conclusion based on three facts:
1) The detective's statements that there is "little physical evidence".
2) The funeral home attendant found the sock in K's throat.
3) No medical examiner, and no autopsy

What evidence might still exist, IMO, was taken from the crime scene, and not the victim's body. Since Det Miller said there is a good chance of using DNA in K's case, then I think it would be on something found at the scene. If any of that evidence has been preserved and uncontaminated, then touch DNA is a possibility. Speaking of which, December, do you recall if fingerprints were ever mentioned?
 
  • #465
This may have already been discussed in a part of the thread I haven't read (or have read and have forgotten details of) -- December, did Kathy "look her age", pretty much?

Just wondering if we are necessarily looking for a pedophile -- if she was well-developed physically, I guess there is some chance the attacker did not realize how young she was. (Although I think ROLLER SKATES and probably her attire and demeanor probably should have been a CLUE!!:stormingmad:)

Then too, there are those who will attack children but not necessarily limit themselves to children... or the usually-adult-victim perp who takes an "experimental" child victim.

From what you've heard talked over the years, do you think LE was looking for a pedophile, specifically? And what is your own feeling?
 
  • #466
BW, I reached that conclusion based on three facts:
1) The detective's statements that there is "little physical evidence".
2) The funeral home attendant found the sock in K's throat.
3) No medical examiner, and no autopsy

What evidence might still exist, IMO, was taken from the crime scene, and not the victim's body. Since Det Miller said there is a good chance of using DNA in K's case, then I think it would be on something found at the scene. If any of that evidence has been preserved and uncontaminated, then touch DNA is a possibility. Speaking of which, December, do you recall if fingerprints were ever mentioned?

bbm: Fingerprints ...of course. DNA is such the big thing nowadays that sometimes I forget about fingerprints!! But I bet in 1969 that's something they sure would have been looking for. And if there WERE fingerprints, bessie -- depending on what they were on and how they were preserved, etc., I know -- wouldn't finding DNA within them be at least a possibility?
 
  • #467
bbm: Fingerprints ...of course. DNA is such the big thing nowadays that sometimes I forget about fingerprints!! But I bet in 1969 that's something they sure would have been looking for. And if there WERE fingerprints, bessie -- depending on what they were on and how they were preserved, etc., I know -- wouldn't finding DNA within them be at least a possibility?
Possibly. Again, it all depends on the handling and preservation of the evidence. With fingerprints, contamination can occur when the same brush is used in separate crimes, and DNA becomes mingled.

Here's a list of obstacles related to touch DNA.

What are some of the problems DNA analysts encounter with touch DNA cases?

  • No presumptive tests
  • Partial profiles yielding low statistics
  • Complex Mixtures: A mixed sample may contain background DNA, crime-related DNA, and post-crime contamination, and it may be difficult to identify the relevant profile. • Increased chance of contamination
  • The profile may not be sufficient to enter into CODIS
  • A late touch DNA request for examination of shared evidence
  • Re-examination of cold cases which may not have been collected, stored, or examined with trace DNA detection sensitivities in mind.
  • Touch DNA does not tell you “when” or “how” DNA was deposited
  • Background DNA obtained from clothing which was handled by someone else or by the manufacturer
  • A bloodstain containing epithelial cells from another source
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/04/touch-dna-crime-scene-crime-laboratory#.UleaIxDBOKw

http://www.isfg.org/files/6834bde1ff72de292232127e2a49d99fa490b26e.05015669_296249835236.pdf
 
  • #468
respectfully snipped
Bobbie socks have thick cuffs, which is why I think the sock was cut because when rolled up it was too thick to use as a gag. I mentioned earlier that I'd like to know if the unused half of the sock was found at the scene. If it were, that would support the notion that the attack occurred where K's body was found. And vice versa if not present.

When the victim's clothing is used in an attack, it is often the work of a disorganized attacker who acts on impulse and opportunity. Sometimes it's a signature, as in the case of John Norman Collins, the Michigan Co-ed killer, who used both the victims' clothing, and other objects, like an electrical cord and a tree branch, in one instance.

Unless he took it with him. I don't know why he would, but maybe.

I know what you're talking about with disorganized killers. Maybe you're right. I'm adding another side of it. I've read some spooky stuff and the people I am talking about also use this technique. Now, maybe that kind of person could not possibly be involved. But, I'm just saying... here's another possibility.

Nothing else from the scene where she was found was used from anything I've heard. Just to be clear about that.
 
  • #469
December, have you seen this?

Unsolved Murder Weekend Shines Light On Cold Cases
Posted: Oct 10, 2013 6:24 PM CST Updated: Oct 10, 2013 6:24 PM CST
by Shannon Royster

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -It's something no one wants to think about, but imagine if your loved one was murdered, and their killer was never brought to justice?

Unfortunately, that's what many local families are dealing with. That's why the group Partners In The Struggle is hoping to highlight several unsolved murders in Nashville and the state of Tennessee with its 4th annual unsolved murder weekend.

snipped
Partners In The Struggle will host three events during its 4th annual Unsolved Murder Weekend beginning tomorrow October 11th through October 13th. For more information email [email protected].
There's more at the link.
 
  • #470
BW, I reached that conclusion based on three facts:
1) The detective's statements that there is "little physical evidence".
2) The funeral home attendant found the sock in K's throat.
3) No medical examiner, and no autopsy

What evidence might still exist, IMO, was taken from the crime scene, and not the victim's body. Since Det Miller said there is a good chance of using DNA in K's case, then I think it would be on something found at the scene. If any of that evidence has been preserved and uncontaminated, then touch DNA is a possibility. Speaking of which, December, do you recall if fingerprints were ever mentioned?

I have never heard anything about fingerprints.

I just do not know if that means they found none or what.
 
  • #471
This may have already been discussed in a part of the thread I haven't read (or have read and have forgotten details of) -- December, did Kathy "look her age", pretty much?

Just wondering if we are necessarily looking for a pedophile -- if she was well-developed physically, I guess there is some chance the attacker did not realize how young she was. (Although I think ROLLER SKATES and probably her attire and demeanor probably should have been a CLUE!!:stormingmad:)

Then too, there are those who will attack children but not necessarily limit themselves to children... or the usually-adult-victim perp who takes an "experimental" child victim.

From what you've heard talked over the years, do you think LE was looking for a pedophile, specifically? And what is your own feeling?

She didn't look mature or have a figure or anything. But, apparently there is a type that likes the 12 year old (give or take a year depending on the child) range.

I think some of these guys will take whomever they can get. She was cautious, but also innocent.

My feeling it is someone who would attack anyone they could. However, the police are looking for a pedophile. Mostly. There are some RSO with attacks on girls Kathy's age range (under 13) who also attack the occasional woman.
But, she wasn't an early bloomer. She was kind of responsible for her age, from what I've heard.

Her clothes were kid's style.
 
  • #472
December, have you seen this?

Unsolved Murder Weekend Shines Light On Cold Cases
There's more at the link.

No, I haven't.

Looks like Asian Pride graffiti in the background of where the police are stringing the tape. (for the 14 year old boy shot in 2010)

I couldn't watch the whole video. I could be wrong about the tag...

Asian Pride = Vietnamese gang bangers, dunno how big they are now.
 
  • #473
The articles, especially early articles, are deceiving.

Metro Police was never chatty with the media. That is what the Marcia Trimble case did. The media started pestering them until they had to get spokesmen and bring everyone in on what they were doing. Because the media cared about her. They did not care about Kathy. This is not Marcia's fault and I'm glad her murder is solved.

The Banner ran a nice photo of Kathy. So, that was nice.
 
  • #474
No, I haven't.

Looks like Asian Pride graffiti in the background of where the police are stringing the tape. (for the 14 year old boy shot in 2010)

I couldn't watch the whole video. I could be wrong about the tag...

Asian Pride = Vietnamese gang bangers, dunno how big they are now.
I don't know about Asian gang bangers, but I thought the information about the group might interest you.
This kind of pain and frustration felt by a countless number of people like Bigsby is what prompted Earl Jordon, founder of Partners In The Struggle, to help.

"The crime is over, the funeral is over, and it's still unsolved," said Jordan. "Those families still need closure for those unsolved murders."
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/23662937/unsolved-murder-weekend-shines-light-on-cold-cases
 
  • #475
I don't know about Asian gang bangers, but I thought the information about the group might interest you.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/23662937/unsolved-murder-weekend-shines-light-on-cold-cases

I read the article, but only part of the video plays on my phone.

It is interesting, but there isn't any way I can possibly go. I can't get to Nashville right now. It's so frustrating.

Maybe someone who still lives in Nashville will go... from my family, I mean.

But, thank you. I didn't say much because I'm just frustrated that I can't do anything. Even the stuff I know is no good. (eta meaning I can't prove it, there's no url for it)
 
  • #476
I don't know about Asian gang bangers, but I thought the information about the group might interest you.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/23662937/unsolved-murder-weekend-shines-light-on-cold-cases

BTW, I used to drive through AP territory all of the time. It was nowhere near where that kid was shot. But, they have probably expanded.

I feel for his mom. If it was AP... it won't be solved. No one will roll over and tell the cops who did it.

eta
I'm serious, i'm crying for her... so i'm not trying to be mean...
 
  • #477
Here are the things that I think happened in Kathy's murder...

Kathy is a well behaved 12 year old girl with short blonde hair and blue eyes. She does not look old for her age. She dresses like a child still.
She leaves home. Planned destinations Krispy Kreme and Rollerdrome.
She is seen walking with her rollerskates, but not inside the rollerdrome. (The question has been raised in the thread if that girl really was Kathy... it is possible she is not... I don't know how distinctive Kathy's clothes were.)
She vanishes.
During the time she is gone... her hands are tied behind her back, half a bobby sock is stuffed in her mouth, her blouse is tied around her face. all of her clothing (which includes coat and gloves) is removed except on sock, still on her foot.
She is raped and sodomized, violently. Probably more than once. The attack is very violent.
She is lightly stabbed on her neck multiple times (not enough to kill her, but enough to cause wounds)
She receives a puncture wound to her chest.
She is beaten.
After 36 hours, she is found in a lot behind one of her destinations... Krispy Kreme.
Her time of death is estimated to have been on Mon. Dec. 1. (she disappeared 11/29/69.)
 
  • #478
Since we were talking about touch DNA, I thought I would post this encouraging news here. It's a story of a cold case from 1995. Krystal Lynn Beslanowitch, a young woman working as a prostitute in Salt Lake City, was bludgeoned to death with a rock in Wasatch County, Utah.

When officers found her unclothed body, she was lying face down in granite rocks, and several of the large rocks were covered in fresh blood, according to an affidavit for Simpson’s arrest warrant. The rocks appeared to be the murder weapons, the affidavit adds.

After years of dead-end leads, DNA technology improved and last January, investigators finally got a match on Simpson from evidence at the scene.
To corroborate the evidence, Bonner and another detective flew to Florida on Aug. 25 to get a new DNA sample from their suspect without his knowledge. They followed Simpson to a smoke shop, where he smoked and discarded a cigarette, Bonner said.

The test on the cigarette proved another match, so Bonner flew back to get him.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56894926-78/county-beslanowitch-wasatch-case.html.csp
The results came back in July. The bacteria vacuum-turned-CSI machine had picked up "touch DNA" from the rock — genetic material that’s left over when someone touches or leaves saliva on a surface that is hard to collect. Bonner had the full DNA profile of Simpson he needed...

"We are pleased to provide the device that helped solve this case," Bradley said in a statement. "Getting DNA from a cigarette butt is impressive, but collecting a full DNA profile from an [18-year-old] rock is amazing."
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56919086-78/bonner-dna-amp-case.html.csp
 
  • #479
I looked into the Krispy Kreme bus. I don't know about it... it seems to be linked more closely to food services than the vans. so, iI consider it very unlikely.
 
  • #480
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