To pass or not to pass, polygraphs are the question

[Skully]

ITA - I think I'm pretty dang smart, but I doubt I could pass a LDT.

She didn't pass any of them, that's the point.

 

[LFlorida]

As a teenager I had to take a poly as part of a job application. During those years I also had really severe panic attacks and being strapped into the chair (trapped!!!OMG) set off one long attack, heart pounding, dripping sweat, all the wonderful symptoms. The polygrapher was really nice and he could either see through the panic on his equipment or he could tell I was pathologically honest (I confessed to eating a 2 cent mint patty from the counter once as a cashier *gasp*) and he unhooked me and I got the job. Maybe he was afraid I was going to rip off the wires and break the machine.

There is no point to this story. Maybe that a lot of people are nervous about taking the tests so they have to be able to work around that. Maybe you react to telling a lie regardless of your mental state.

I'm still sorry I stole that mint patty. I should have tossed 2 cents into the drawer.

I know how horrific panic attacks can be, but I busted out laughing at the way you wrote this. Kudos & thx, Gracenote.

 

[LFlorida]

She didn't pass any of them, that's the point.

OK,

But WTH does that mean? That she's not capable of "passing" one? That she doesn't know the truth?

lol, sorry, I don't "get" LDT results.

 

[LFlorida]

Read my post again, no where do I state she is smart. No I am saying she doesn't sound drugged or drunk. Her story is full of holes and she can't keep it straight, but she is sober enough to give all that false information. I don't want it both ways, I think she is lying and covering up for herself and maybe Ron.

So any dummy like me can "fool the cops"?

Carp.... wish I'd known.

btw - did I tell y'all I'm George Anthony's real mistress? And I'm the rental agent for both Ron and Teresa's former abodes? And I SHOT J.R. Ewing And J.F.K., too. My realname is Florita Castro Windsor. [I'm Charles' illegitimate daughter - it's OK since I couldn't have ascended the throne as a female anyhow.]

oops - sorry, I mean, I'm Charles' niece by his sister Anne. Fidel is my father.

 

[4Jacy]

So any dummy like me can "fool the cops"?

Carp.... wish I'd known.

btw - did I tell y'all I'm George Anthony's real mistress? And I'm the rental agent for both Ron and Teresa's former abodes? And I SHOT J.R. Ewing And J.F.K., too. My realname is Florita Castro Windsor. [I'm Charles' illegitimate daughter - it's OK since I couldn't have ascended the throne as a female anyhow.]

oops - sorry, I mean, I'm Charles' niece by his sister Anne. Fidel is my father.

Great sense of humor there Florita :woohoo:

My great, great uncle was Pope John

 

[Skully]

So any dummy like me can "fool the cops"?

Carp.... wish I'd known.

btw - did I tell y'all I'm George Anthony's real mistress? And I'm the rental agent for both Ron and Teresa's former abodes? And I SHOT J.R. Ewing And J.F.K., too. My realname is Florita Castro Windsor. [I'm Charles' illegitimate daughter - it's OK since I couldn't have ascended the throne as a female anyhow.]

oops - sorry, I mean, I'm Charles' niece by his sister Anne. Fidel is my father.

You are not understanding my post. I don't get what you are saying or your posts, you sound upset and I am just trying to make a point about her state of mind the night she called 911. She didn't fool the cops. She failed her poly, she didn't fool them. I am referring to her being drunk or drugged out of her mind that night. I am saying if she was drunk they would have smelled alcohol on her, or noticed she was drugged up. She is capable to telling this whole story that is nothing but lies, most drunks can't put two sentences together, let alone fool the cops.

 

[Skully]

OK,

But WTH does that mean? That she's not capable of "passing" one? That she doesn't know the truth?

lol, sorry, I don't "get" LDT results.

No I am saying she doen't pass because she is lying, period.

 

[LFlorida]

You are not understanding my post. I don't get what you are saying or your posts, you sound upset and I am just trying to make a point about her state of mind the night she called 911. She didn't fool the cops. She failed her poly, she didn't fool them. I am referring to her being drunk or drugged out of her mind that night. I am saying if she was drunk they would have smelled alcohol on her, or noticed she was drugged up. She is capable to telling this whole story that is nothing but lies, most drunks can't put two sentences together, let alone fool the cops.

Well, I wasn't upset then, but I am now. Sorry for all the mutual misunderstandings.

 

[Donjeta]

Does Misty continue to fail polygraphs because she is lying? Or is there another reason she can't pass the test?

Here's an interesting article: "Does the polygraph test, otherwise known as the lie detector test, work? Melvin Foster may not think so. Back in 1982, after profilers thought a taxi driver might be the Green River Killer, they targeted Foster as a suspect, partly because he drove a taxi. He generously agreed to a polygraph test, which he failed.

The problem was, he was innocent.

Meanwhile, over a period of about two to three years, the Green River Killer murdered four dozen or more women near Seattle and Tacoma, Washington." <snipped>

http://www.articlesfactory.com/articles/government/the-polygraph-test-does-it-work.html

I've been looking for links that discuss people who fail polygraphs when they are innocent and why does that happen? I haven't been very successful so far. Yes, I think Misty is lying, but what if? Let's check it out.

Well, supposing (for the sake of argument), that polygraphs were 95 % accurate. That would be pretty good scientifically. However, even so you would have the wrong result in one test out of every 20 exams. If it's only 80 % accurate, one test in five turns out wrong.

You get both false positives and false negatives in almost any lab test, even if scientifically sound, especially if the attributes being measured are continuous and not simply dichotomous. A genetic test might be dichotomous. Either you have this allele or you don't. But a polygraph measures physiological responses which you may exhibit a little, a little more, or a lot more, and the examiners have to draw a line somewhere between what they think means deceptive and what they think means truthful. But there is no deceptive allele that you can look and state that it's there or it's not; instead it's a much more complicated business of comparing average responses. Wherever you draw the arbitrary line between "supposed deceptive" and "supposed truthful", there are going to be people falling on close to that line and chance might get them to end up on the wrong side.

That said, I'm not convinced that Melvyn Foster was innocent... Yes, he wasn't the Green River Killer but he could have done something else. I saw this documentary once, where they showed a clip of him getting out of jail. The reporter asked him, "Did you kill all those women or what?" And his response had a correction that made him sound like a wannabe serial killer: "No but I wish I did, I wish I did know who did, because... I'd put a stop to him. I got bad feelings when anybody hurts a woman".

About Misty: First of all, I can't believe she'd do it AGAIN! FGS woman, don't you ever learn????

Regarding drugs, I believe that if a person was stoned or drunk as a skunk and therefore has gaps in their memory but genuinely believes a false or a planted memory their responses would be equal to honest responses. People may misremember things but I don't think it generally shows up as deception in the polygraph if they're convinced of what they're saying. But if she wasn't telling the truth about being stoned off her face and was consciously passing somebody else's tales as her own recollections that would count as lying, IMO.

 

[elle1919]

Donjeta, you are making perfect sense. Truly, I just had a duh, moment.

 

[Kimster]

I just read in another thread in the Missing forum that polys are allowed in the state of Washington as long as both sides agree to it. I wonder when both sides would agree to one? Ha.

But the interesting part to me is that it seems that some really do feel they are valid enough to introduce into a court of law.

Personally, and JMO, I think she failed because she is lying.

 

[LFlorida]

Regarding drugs, I believe that if a person was stoned or drunk as a skunk and therefore has gaps in their memory but genuinely believes a false or a planted memory their responses would be equal to honest responses. People may misremember things but I don't think it generally shows up as deception in the polygraph if they're convinced of what they're saying. But if she wasn't telling the truth about being stoned off her face and was consciously passing somebody else's tales as her own recollections that would count as lying, IMO.

I did a very poor job of trying to get my thoughts across & I probably won't do much better this time. (Sorry.)

What if she realized - as she was speaking - that her stories didn't make sense? Would doubt show up as "failing" on a polygraph?

Do they even use "PASS" and "FAIL" re: LDTs? I would have thought they say things like "the data on questions 2-5 would indicate a high probability of deception" or something fancy like that. Kinda like when you have a drug screen done. It never says PASS, FAIL, or DRUG-FREE. It says something like, "no detectable levels of drugs A,B, or C."

 

[Donjeta]

I suppose doubting their own stories might make people fail or get an inconclusive result but it seems to me it would be easily remediable. Just say to the kind detective, "Look, I think I might have been wrong about X, I'm not so sure anymore, I don't really remember because I had taken too many illegal drugs, and now I think what I said doesn't make sense because Y happened, and I might have gotten the wrong idea because Z and M said N happened, but it couldn't have, because I'm certain I did O and P at Q o'clock..."

I don't remember her expressing any overt uncertainty about what she might or might not be able to remember about that night in her TM tapes. Did she? She seemed to come across to me as "this is what happened" instead of "this is what I think I might remember but I'm not sure..."

 

[Skully]

This I know from personal experience, (I was not the one drinking in this story), a person who drinks to the point of passing out can wake up and be in a "black out". Some times they look and act sober, they have no memory of what they did or what happened. I have seen this on many occasions. When this person sobered up and was told what they did or what transpired, they denied it happened that way. This person was 100% sure we were wrong, they had there own memory of what happened. So was this a false memory or were they just lying to escape the blame? IDK Maybe Misty was in a black out, but the cops don't mention her being under the influence in the initial report. Could she have hidden that from them? If so, and someone told her what to say, or she thinks she knows what happened, would she pass? IDK. I think she fails because she knows what she is saying is a lie and it causes the test to show deception or a lie.

 

[Donjeta]

This I know from personal experience, (I was not the one drinking in this story), a person who drinks to the point of passing out can wake up and be in a "black out". Some times they look and act sober, they have no memory of what they did or what happened. I have seen this on many occasions. When this person sobered up and was told what they did or what transpired, they denied it happened that way. This person was 100% sure we were wrong, they had there own memory of what happened. So was this a false memory or were they just lying to escape the blame? IDK Maybe Misty was in a black out, but the cops don't mention her being under the influence in the initial report. Could she have hidden that from them? If so, and someone told her what to say, or she thinks she knows what happened, would she pass? IDK. I think she fails because she knows what she is saying is a lie and it causes the test to show deception or a lie.

Don't tell mom but I've had that happen to me once... I remember that I was at a party with my boyfriend. He was in another room, I was talking to two people I know. Then I have no idea what happened, but I came to my senses at another apartment a couple of blocks away. It belonged to a friend who wasn't at the original party, and who wasn't even in town. She had given me her keys so that I could go water her plants but I had had no intention of going there that night, and I don't remember going there at all. I don't know if I had been given a date rape drug or if I had just been drinking too much, I have no idea. Thankfully I was alone, unhurt, fully dressed and had all my stuff so it doesn't look like I had been raped or robbed or anything. But I have no idea how I got there.

I was never polygraphed about that but I think that if I had told the polygrapher any kind of stories beyond "I don't remember what happened, I had blacked out" it would have been a lie and if polygraphs are any good it would have been deception indicated.

 

[Maryann123]

I want to address why I feel the poly is a true report on Misty. It is because she is lying. How can anyone believe she watched someone take Haleigh and not tell a soul for over a year? She has no love for cousin Joe! She does love Ronald, and she would have told him. She has accused (falsely in my opinion) Tommy and Joe for many things. What reason would she have for keeping this a secret? Her latest scenario makes absolutely no sense. If her Poly came back that she was honest on these latest accusations, then I would be screaming that the poly was a bunch of crap! Poly's may not be accurate, but I think this one was dead on! Did anybody really, honest to goodness, ever think this was what happened?

 

[Emeralgem]

Don't tell mom but I've had that happen to me once... I remember that I was at a party with my boyfriend. He was in another room, I was talking to two people I know. Then I have no idea what happened, but I came to my senses at another apartment a couple of blocks away. It belonged to a friend who wasn't at the original party, and who wasn't even in town. She had given me her keys so that I could go water her plants but I had had no intention of going there that night, and I don't remember going there at all. I don't know if I had been given a date rape drug or if I had just been drinking too much, I have no idea. Thankfully I was alone, unhurt, fully dressed and had all my stuff so it doesn't look like I had been raped or robbed or anything. But I have no idea how I got there.

I was never polygraphed about that but I think that if I had told the polygrapher any kind of stories beyond "I don't remember what happened, I had blacked out" it would have been a lie and if polygraphs are any good it would have been deception indicated.

O/T I can relate. I had a similar experience when I was in college..Words of caution.. Never drink Jungle Juice at a fraternity party.. JMO

 

[Maryann123]

Donjeta, I had a similar experience. I was dating my husband to be, and we had a fight. (I was only 17 years old. I was out with friends, and had way too much to drink. I had no memory of running into my "then" boyfriend, and cursing him out. The next day when others told me about it, I started to remember it! Actually, I remembered seeing him and being mad, but I don't remember saying such hateful words to him. My point is, that I think the alcohol gave me the courage to say what I was really thinking. I would have never used these words sober. It was my real thoughts, but I was too much of a lady to say them. I think alcohol and drugs can relax your inhibitions, but not make you do things that are against your moral fiber. He had cheated on me, and I really wanted to kill him, but I only cursed him out. It turned out well, since we have been married for over 40 years. True story!

 

[rossva]

My person experiences with polygraphs:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98882&page=3

posts #67 and #72.

 

[TxLady2]

Most of the time, LE doesn't tell someone whether they passed or failed, esp. if they are a suspect, or no one has been cleared yet. If you ask, they say something like they're satisfied with the results.

I agree, though... Misty failed because she lied.