To those of you sitting on the fence....

[cynic]

While there may have been some similarities

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8837"]Exclusive Cina Wong Exhibit Charts - Forums For Justice[/ame]

Her analysis concluded that it was "highly probable" that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. She said there are over 243 points of similarity between a sample of Patsy Ramsey's writings and the ransom notes. "There are so many unique similarities between both writings."

 

[voynich]

Exclusive Cina Wong Exhibit Charts - Forums For Justice

Her analysis concluded that it was "highly probable" that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. She said there are over 243 points of similarity between a sample of Patsy Ramsey's writings and the ransom notes. "There are so many unique similarities between both writings."

While I think the other evidence, from fiber to staging to CASKU to secondary DNA transfer, to alleged sexual abuse, can be debated, this
is the one piece of evidence that I think links R's to the crime, unless forgery was involved.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Exclusive Cina Wong Exhibit Charts - Forums For Justice

Her analysis concluded that it was "highly probable" that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. She said there are over 243 points of similarity between a sample of Patsy Ramsey's writings and the ransom notes. "There are so many unique similarities between both writings."

I suggest actually reading some of the articles from back in 1997-2000 on PR's handwriting analysis. While one can say 243 points of similarity, another says 99.9% it belongs to JMK, while yet another says no evidence to suggest PR wrote the note.

Myself I see 1000's of dissimilarities, too many to even bother with.

RDI touts the writing similarities but really it didn't even garner an arrest. Its inarguable that BPD tried to match the handwriting and failed. Dont believe me, reread the articles.

 

[redeemed]

How cute!

I've looked at that handwriting evidence and I must say, it's pretty persuasive evidence

Is it simpler to explain DNA evidence away as secondary transfer, or an intruder who
consciously attempted to imitate PR's handwriting? While I think that an intruder
could attempt a forgery of PR's handwriting, or coincidentally learned a handwriting
style that resembles PR, I kinda think that this is unlikely.

I do think the RN and PR handwriting look very similar. So I've had my arms cut off by Dave's Light Spin-er
Since I'm not trained in handwriting though I've seen very good forgeries, esp of signatures on
paintings and checks.

I can see why Da-Ve-der was seduced by the Dark Spin of the Forensics

First things first- welcome back!!!
Secondly, its GREAT that you are beginning to atleast CONSIDER that PR was the one that wrote it...
Thirdly, if you look at the BIG PICTURE , you will realise that the Ramseys atleast KNOW WHO KILLED JB...

LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!

 

[Chrishope]

Just a couple comments about handwriting.

First, I notice my own writing takes on a slightly different look depending on the writing surface. If I sign something on my desk it looks one way, if I sign something while holding a clipboard, it looks different. There are still similarities - many in fact. But there are also differences.

Handwriting "experts" disagree, largely because handwriting "analysis" isn't anything more than looking at writing samples and determining whether or not it was by the same author. It's not a science. I would trade all the "experts" for any 5th grade teacher.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Its probably worth noting that the source for 'sense' in the example above is not listed.

Also the quality of the samples of questionable source is not good because they are felt tip writings that were scanned and then faxed and in some cases modified (traced over to make them bolder?). I'd call them second hand samples.

When you consider the 'big picture' then its evident PR didn't write the note. Thats because there are no explanations for the grammatical and spelling differences that aren't obviously knee-jerk, and there are plenty of dissimilarities in the writings on the whole. PR's left hand exemplars aren't nearly as legible as the RN author, and her right hand exemplars are of much higher legibility than the RN author's.

Suggestion for RDI: maybe PR used both hands when she wrote the RN?

 

[BBB167893]

Until the time is right, disappear we will.

Get settled in.

 

[BBB167893]

I've looked at that handwriting evidence and I must say, it's pretty persuasive evidence

Good. Good.

Is it simpler to explain DNA evidence away as secondary transfer, or an intruder who
consciously attempted to imitate PR's handwriting? While I think that an intruder
could attempt a forgery of PR's handwriting, or coincidentally learned a handwriting
style that resembles PR, I kinda think that this is unlikely.

I'd say you've pretty much answered your own question. Very well at that.

I do think the RN and PR handwriting look very similar. So I've had my arms cut off by Dave's Light Spin-er

Think of it as being liberated.

Since I'm not trained in handwriting though I've seen very good forgeries, esp of signatures on
paintings and checks.

That's a fair sight different than what we're talking about here.

I can see why Da-Ve-der was seduced by the Dark Spin of the Forensics

It isn't difficult, is it?

(Incidentally, I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.)

 

[BBB167893]

I agree that if you cherry pick even my handwriting, you might find one of my "e" to look like the RN's "e", and I wonder if a computer analysis of the handwriting has been attempted. Still, I find the two e's and Cina Wong's other letters to be somewhat disconcerting given that those e's look similar and uncommon.

Now you're getting it! Look, voynich, forget what HOTYH says; forget what I say. Ask yourself this question:

Do I believe my own eyes?

That's the question I asked. No big mystery as to how it turned out.

The resident Spin Lord can quote some guy named Epstein who thinks the handwriting is a 100% match.

Among others.

I would also remind you that HOTYH's claims about not being enough to garner an arrest DO NOT tell the whole story. Far from it. The way the DA's office saw it, proving who wrote the note was NOT the same as proving who committed the killing. The writer could be just an accomplice. In fact, ADA Pete Hofstrom said, and I quote:

"So what if she wrote the note? It doesn't prove she murdered her kid." And from a legal standpoint, he was right. So I wouldn't read too much into the " no arrest" angle, especially considering what KIND of "prosecutors" we're talking about here...

What I would like to see is all the letters in the RN side by side by all letters of most exemplars of PR writing.

Oh, voynich...if ONLY I had a scanner! Then your wish would truly be my command!

 

[BBB167893]

Suggestion for RDI: maybe PR used both hands when she wrote the RN?

I have OFTEN thought that! Much obliged.

 

[voynich]

First things first- welcome back!!!
Secondly, its GREAT that you are beginning to atleast CONSIDER that PR was the one that wrote it...
Thirdly, if you look at the BIG PICTURE , you will realise that the Ramseys atleast KNOW WHO KILLED JB...

LET THERE BE LIGHT!!!

Thanks. Given the similarity in handwriting I must admit, my faith in the JIDI order has been shaken. When I see the handwriting, I feel like Darth Davder has a force choke on me.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I have OFTEN thought that! Much obliged.

Its clear that PR's right hand exemplars are generally superior in quality to the ransom note writings. Its also clear that the ransom note writings are superior in quality to PR's left hand exemplars. If PR wrote the note, then the general differences in quality needs to be explained.

There are wildcard explanations, like 'disguised writing' and 'more nervous at one time vs. another' but these explanations have to be corroborated to be useful. Thats because the wildcard explanations can be freely applied to anyone.

Even if two e's look alike, RDI still needs an explanation for the general difference in quality.

 

[voynich]

Good. Good.



I'd say you've pretty much answered your own question. Very well at that.



Think of it as being liberated.



That's a fair sight different than what we're talking about here.



It isn't difficult, is it?

(Incidentally, I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.)

You and your force-choke :crazy:



Oh I did, you? Thanks.

 

[voynich]

Now you're getting it! Look, voynich, forget what HOTYH says; forget what I say. Ask yourself this question:

Do I believe my own eyes?

That's the question I asked. No big mystery as to how it turned out.



Among others.

I would also remind you that HOTYH's claims about not being enough to garner an arrest DO NOT tell the whole story. Far from it. The way the DA's office saw it, proving who wrote the note was NOT the same as proving who committed the killing. The writer could be just an accomplice. In fact, ADA Pete Hofstrom said, and I quote:

"So what if she wrote the note? It doesn't prove she murdered her kid." And from a legal standpoint, he was right. So I wouldn't read too much into the " no arrest" angle, especially considering what KIND of "prosecutors" we're talking about here...



Oh, voynich...if ONLY I had a scanner! Then your wish would truly be my command!

My eyes tell me the handwriting is the same or forgery was involved.

I can understand forgeries of wills, credit cards and check signatures, and famous works of Paintings.

The closest thing I can think of that involves so much would be Hitler's diaries.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

My eyes tell me the handwriting is the same or forgery was involved.

Use the source, Luke.

 

[voynich]

Its clear that PR's right hand exemplars are generally superior in quality to the ransom note writings. Its also clear that the ransom note writings are superior in quality to PR's left hand exemplars. If PR wrote the note, then the general differences in quality needs to be explained.

There are wildcard explanations, like 'disguised writing' and 'more nervous at one time vs. another' but these explanations have to be corroborated to be useful. Thats because the wildcard explanations can be freely applied to anyone.

Even if two e's look alike, RDI still needs an explanation for the general difference in quality.

I hope you're right, we must act quickly if the JIDI order is to survive.

 

[voynich]

Its probably worth noting that the source for 'sense' in the example above is not listed.

Also the quality of the samples of questionable source is not good because they are felt tip writings that were scanned and then faxed and in some cases modified (traced over to make them bolder?). I'd call them second hand samples.

When you consider the 'big picture' then its evident PR didn't write the note. Thats because there are no explanations for the grammatical and spelling differences that aren't obviously knee-jerk, and there are plenty of dissimilarities in the writings on the whole. PR's left hand exemplars aren't nearly as legible as the RN author, and her right hand exemplars are of much higher legibility than the RN author's.

Suggestion for RDI: maybe PR used both hands when she wrote the RN?

If I were a jury member, and the prosecution presented the above evidence, I would be persuaded that PR wrote the RN unless the defense can explain it and provide specific counter-handwriting evidence along the lines you suggest.

In otherwords, if I were part of the jury, I would accept the photographic evidence as prima facie evidence PR wrote the RN in her own handwriting, and is thus somehow involved in JB's death, and the burden to prove otherwise would rest on them.

With secondary DNA transfer I feel the reverse, it's up to the prosecutors to take a little 6 y/o girl, have her handshake a boy, "good shedder" if you please, and then touch her sides of her long johns and panties, and see if DNA does indeed show up 98% of the time. This would have to be repeated with variations (i.e handwashing, hand shaking other boys and other people, etc.)

It shouldn't be hard to directly test RDI secondary DNA transfer scenarios. If these scenarios show that secondary transfer scenarios does produce DNA in the 3 locations 1% of the time, and unable to do so 99% of the time, what then? What about 50-50%? 20-80%?

 

[cynic]

If I were a jury member, and the prosecution presented the above evidence, I would be persuaded that PR wrote the RN unless the defense can explain it and provide specific counter-handwriting evidence along the lines you suggest.

In otherwords, if I were part of the jury, I would accept the photographic evidence as prima facie evidence PR wrote the RN in her own handwriting, and is thus somehow involved in JB's death, and the burden to prove otherwise would rest on them.

With secondary DNA transfer I feel the reverse, it's up to the prosecutors to take a little 6 y/o girl, have her handshake a boy, "good shedder" if you please, and then touch her sides of her long johns and panties, and see if DNA does indeed show up 98% of the time. This would have to be repeated with variations (i.e handwashing, hand shaking other boys and other people, etc.)

It shouldn't be hard to directly test RDI secondary DNA transfer scenarios. If these scenarios show that secondary transfer scenarios does produce DNA in the 3 locations 1% of the time, and unable to do so 99% of the time, what then? What about 50-50%? 20-80%?

Hi Voynich, welcome back BTW.
Have a look here [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999"]DNA Revisited - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
and here [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91175"]...and perhaps an innocent explanation... - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[voynich]

Hi Voynich, welcome back BTW.
Have a look here DNA Revisited - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
and here ...and perhaps an innocent explanation... - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Well thanks. One paper you cited showed secondary transfer DNA was detectable only 1/4 times as they described. And the scenarios you outline

"Other possibilities include:
· Primary transfer from an “innocent” male donor. An example would be kids playing “doctor” as suggested earlier by SD.
· Secondary transfer via hand contact by one or more of the following: JBR, PR, JR.
· Secondary transfer through use of a contaminated item such as a wash cloth or towel.
· Contamination and / or cross-contamination by someone involved in the collection, testing or storage of the long johns and panties."

We could directly test.

But this handwriting evidence leaves me speechless. It's like Madeleine and Dave has a force choke on me. The e looks the same. The handwriting evidence is one evidence that makes me wonder RDI.

Tell me something cynic, even if there is an innocent explanation for DNA, IDI could still be true, since the perp might have worn gloves and the DNA could be contamination. An analogy could be made to fingerprints, that unknown fingerprints could be unrelated to the crime, but the crime could still be done by an intruder (say Samuel Sheppard case)

Do you think it is possible for an intruder to consciously imitate PR's handwriting i.e forgery?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If I were a jury member, and the prosecution presented the above evidence, I would be persuaded that PR wrote the RN unless the defense can explain it and provide specific counter-handwriting evidence along the lines you suggest.

In otherwords, if I were part of the jury, I would accept the photographic evidence as prima facie evidence PR wrote the RN in her own handwriting, and is thus somehow involved in JB's death, and the burden to prove otherwise would rest on them.

Certainly as a juror you would question where the samples came from. Far as I know these exemplars above are from the tabloids, supposedly 'leaked' from the investigation.

Same tabloids with Elvis on Mars, right?

Expert testimony on PR vs RN author's handwriting abound. Experts that were called upon by BPD to provide their analysis, and not armchair self-appointed or third party experts. As a juror I would hold the BPD hired experts in equal or higher regard than my own study of scanned, faxed, and tabloided representations from third parties. This is only tabloid junk that SD and Mad have you all shaken up with.

The exemplars posted above are NOT photographic representations as you suggested.