Trail to the Water & Cadaver dog hits

[Leila]

I saw in the video with LE talking to Ron at the dock Monday,wondered if a boat didn't come up to there,followed treeline back and forth to boat.The man who took the Lisk Sisters used a canoe.He picked them up in vehicle and got in his canoe.I am wondering about the abandoned car found,if it was abandoned.

Excellent point! I've wondered how that abandoned vehicle fit into the picture and why LE was being so secretive about it. The only thing I thought of was two perps and two vehicles, with one left behind. But, your theory about a boat/canoe makes sense. If the person who drove the abandoned car had a boat or canoe on top of the car, he could have made an escape with Haleigh in the boat or canoe and left the car behind.

 

[txsvicki]

If Haleigh was taken down the path by the water, someone could have been trying to decide what to do until an accomplice showed up with a vehicle. Maybe the accomplice turned the wrong way and went around that circle before heading out to Monroe at the railroad tracks.

 

[GenealogyKR]

If Haleigh was taken down the path by the water, someone could have been trying to decide what to do until an accomplice showed up with a vehicle. Maybe the accomplice turned the wrong way and went around that circle before heading out to Monroe at the railroad tracks.

Sounds about right.

 

[Indigo]

There sure has been many interesting developments tonight concerning dogs. Don't know if that's good or bad. O/T a little, but I am such a non-emotional person that I rarely cry. When all this broke, big tears swelled up in my eyes. I just couldn't help it. Ok, back to the dogs . . There has been a lot of discussion about the trail the tracking dogs took and if they were really following her scent. I don't doubt that the trail thru the park could have been the path that the school bus took that morning/afternoon. However, I still firmly believe when the dog exited thru the back door and to the water, that was her freshest scent. Does anybody know where the dumpster ( that was searched today) sits in relation to the water? TIA. . .

:hug: Hugs to you, Houndacres. These sad cases will get to anyone.

I totally agree about the trail from the back door. It had to be fresh. Wish I knew more about the dumpster. From what I've read here, it seems to be located close to a marina--very close to Haleigh's house.

If I read/hear any more I'll be sure to update.

 

[TxLady2]

they could have had them out day one, but because decomp would have been in early stages the dogs could miss it or the scent could be masked. I think it is normal to do subsequent searches.

Some search dogs can find a body if it is recently dead, because the body will still give off a live scent for a period of time. I don't think any LE agency uses cadaver dogs within the first few days of a search, because that is upsetting to the family, and they are still looking for a live person. They do have very good reasons for what they do and when they do it.

 

[Indigo]

Hi Indigo,

Don't know if this means anything, but i did notice the dog Alerts(barks) at 4:33. Officers walking in lower right area of screen. Then at 4:35 communication, can not make out what was said...

Thanks, Roblyn. I must need sleep--can't seem to find the part of the video you're referring to. I'll check back tomorrow after java.

 

[TxLady2]

Of course it's normal. But a dead body starts to decompose immediately. They should have had the cadaver dogs there immediately. That's all I was saying. Inside the house too.

I believe you are half right. A dead body does start to decompose fairly quickly, but it will still give off a live scent for a period of time, and the decomp odor is not apparent until some time later. I learned this during the SP case, reading the testimony of dog handlers.
If this were my child or grandchild, I would not want LE to be bringing in cadaver dogs within hours of the child going missing. I would be holding out hope that my child was alive. I don't think any of us should presume to know more than these LEO's or try to tell them how to do their jobs. It's not standard procedure for them to assume a child or any missing person is dead, just hours into an investigation.

 

[Houndacres]

:hug: Hugs to you, Houndacres. These sad cases will get to anyone.

I totally agree about the trail from the back door. It had to be fresh. Wish I knew more about the dumpster. From what I've read here, it seems to be located close to a marina--very close to Haleigh's house.

If I read/hear any more I'll be sure to update.

Thank you for the hugs! Just so unlike me! :crazy:
I was talking to a lady on our dog list tonight. She searches with cadaver dogs, as well as using bloohounds for SAR. She noted that cadaver dogs are usually very accurate. It seems to me that the dogs/teams they are using are reputable. I think in the end, all the dog info will fall into place and we'll find they were more accurate than we realized. Still praying for a positive ending and that this baby girl will be home soon!

 

[Pennsolveania]

Friday, February 27, 2009 2:47:28 AM
Putnam County Sheriff's Office News Release

Nothing Found In Dumpster Search

SATSUMA -- The Putnam County Sheriff's Office searched a Dumpster approximately a quarter-mile from the home of missing Haleigh Cummings, 5, Thursday.

Three cadaver dogs alerted on the Dumpster around 3 p.m.

Investigators found brush and debris inside. All were remnants of a home being renovated.

The sheriff's office said they did not take anything from the Dumpster.

Bloodhounds had searched the area several times in the past. The dogs' handler described the incident as an anomaly.

The sheriff's office and the cadaver dogs will be back out for more searching on Friday.

WJXT-TV
updated 1:15 a.m. ET, Fri., Feb. 27, 2009

Selzer explained that the dogs brought to Satsuma on Thursday have been trained to alert only on the scent of human decomposition, not meat or dead animals. He said the dogs could hit on a something a small as a bandage used to cover a person's bloody cut.

After going through every square inch of the Dumpster, they gave up the search.

"There's several anomalies that can cause a K-9 to hit. We don’t know what's in the mind of the dog. The dog did what's it trained to do. We did what we have to do afterward, which is to search. Everything comes done to the human search, and we found nothing of consequence," said Putnam Sheriff's Office Maj. Gary Bowling. "We don’t know why the dog hit, but there's nothing there that indicates that we need to search any further."

________________________________________

Take those dogs to Timothy Randolph Loucakis' house.

 

[Blackwatch]

Friday, February 27, 2009 2:47:28 AM
Putnam County Sheriff's Office News Release

Nothing Found In Dumpster Search

SATSUMA -- The Putnam County Sheriff's Office searched a Dumpster approximately a quarter-mile from the home of missing Haleigh Cummings, 5, Thursday.

Three cadaver dogs alerted on the Dumpster around 3 p.m.

Investigators found brush and debris inside. All were remnants of a home being renovated.

The sheriff's office said they did not take anything from the Dumpster.

Bloodhounds had searched the area several times in the past. The dogs' handler described the incident as an anomaly.

The sheriff's office and the cadaver dogs will be back out for more searching on Friday.

WJXT-TV
updated 1:15 a.m. ET, Fri., Feb. 27, 2009

Selzer explained that the dogs brought to Satsuma on Thursday have been trained to alert only on the scent of human decomposition, not meat or dead animals. He said the dogs could hit on a something a small as a bandage used to cover a person's bloody cut.

After going through every square inch of the Dumpster, they gave up the search.

"There's several anomalies that can cause a K-9 to hit. We don’t know what's in the mind of the dog. The dog did what's it trained to do. We did what we have to do afterward, which is to search. Everything comes done to the human search, and we found nothing of consequence," said Putnam Sheriff's Office Maj. Gary Bowling. "We don’t know why the dog hit, but there's nothing there that indicates that we need to search any further."

________________________________________

Take those dogs to Timothy Randolph Loucakis' house.

A couple of things in this article stood out:

Three cadaver dogs alerted on the Dumpster around 3 p.m.

Three dogs most likely wouldn't make the same "mistake". Is it possible a
body was in there then moved?

Secondly:

Investigators found brush and debris inside. All were remnants of a home being renovated.

Have they checked out the home being renovated? Possibly a body was there and came in contact with some of this debris?

 

[Becky319]

A couple of things in this article stood out:

Three cadaver dogs alerted on the Dumpster around 3 p.m.

Three dogs most likely wouldn't make the same "mistake". Is it possible a
body was in there then moved?

Secondly:

Investigators found brush and debris inside. All were remnants of a home being renovated.

Have they checked out the home being renovated? Possibly a body was there and came in contact with some of this debris?

ITA! I thought I saw some garbage bags being taken out of the dumpster too, maybe just bags with debris in them. I know it has to be done but I hate body searches, I wish we could get all the missing back alive.

 

[balaney]

When was the last time the dumpster was dumped? Was it after Haleigh disappeared? If so, maybe fluids or scents remain but the source is in a landfill.

 

[natsound]

Friday, February 27, 2009 2:47:28 AM
Putnam County Sheriff's Office News Release

Nothing Found In Dumpster Search

SATSUMA -- The Putnam County Sheriff's Office searched a Dumpster approximately a quarter-mile from the home of missing Haleigh Cummings, 5, Thursday.

Three cadaver dogs alerted on the Dumpster around 3 p.m.

Investigators found brush and debris inside. All were remnants of a home being renovated.

The sheriff's office said they did not take anything from the Dumpster.

Bloodhounds had searched the area several times in the past. The dogs' handler described the incident as an anomaly.

The sheriff's office and the cadaver dogs will be back out for more searching on Friday.

WJXT-TV
updated 1:15 a.m. ET, Fri., Feb. 27, 2009

Selzer explained that the dogs brought to Satsuma on Thursday have been trained to alert only on the scent of human decomposition, not meat or dead animals. He said the dogs could hit on a something a small as a bandage used to cover a person's bloody cut.

After going through every square inch of the Dumpster, they gave up the search.

"There's several anomalies that can cause a K-9 to hit. We don’t know what's in the mind of the dog. The dog did what's it trained to do. We did what we have to do afterward, which is to search. Everything comes done to the human search, and we found nothing of consequence," said Putnam Sheriff's Office Maj. Gary Bowling. "We don’t know why the dog hit, but there's nothing there that indicates that we need to search any further."

________________________________________

Take those dogs to Timothy Randolph Loucakis' house.

If the dogs hit on that dumpster and they don't know why... they need to find out why! I hope they don't blow this off too quickly. They're all aware of the statistics... bodies are usually found close to the home. JMO.

 

[mydailyopinions]

I sure hope the dogs have more luck today. This baby needs to be found. She has been gone way too long now.
PS. I am thankful now that none of the live links worked for me last night, and even more thankful that I lost the TV bet with the kids!

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Something is just not right with this picture. They said they are finished searching the dumpster, but will be back out on Friday to search. What information do they have that they are back to doing ground searches?
How can three dogs alert in the same area? So, they are saying that all three dogs had a false positive? I would understand one dog, but three? They say they are finished searching the dumpster and I feel it's to early to quit. They were searching in the dark, did they bring out the black light- special lighting? Or were they just searching through the trash?
They claim they don't know why the three dogs alerted, why don't they go back and recheck the dumpster? They need to find out why and not over look this, what if the body was in there at one time? I hope they have taken all that trash into evidence somewhere before it ends up in the landfilled and they lose any pertinent information.

 

[Anais]

If the dogs hit on that dumpster and they don't know why... they need to find out why! I hope they don't blow this off too quickly. They're all aware of the statistics... bodies are usually found close to the home. JMO.

They sure do need to follow this up! 3 Cadaver dogs hitting on the same location is no error or coincidence. Regardless of if it has to do with this case or another I sure hope that LE will take it seriously and begin looking into this further today.

 

[Tichad3]

I took a little break last night from life...I buried myself in a book, and when I come back this morning all heck is breaking.

3 cadaver dogs hit on the same dumpster and they don't know why?!?! Gimme a break already.

I can understand LE in a small town being in over their heads on a case like this, but come on people! Isn't the Feebs involved? Isn't there someone they can call and get advice?? I just don't think they are handling this right...MY OPINION.

 

[LFlorida]

Wow, I discovered some very salient points on here, folks. Stuff that had never occurred to me.

Crabbers are a whole breed apart from anyone else based on my own limited exposure to them. Very under-the-table, under-the-radar kind of existence. And they know the ins and outs of the river and its tributaries and canals better than anybody.

Somewhere someone on here mentioned looking upstream, not just downstream. If they are going to bother looking beyond the water's edge, and if they really think it is an abduction, then why wouldn't they look upstream too?

PCSO's first fear was what time the next CSX train was coming through in case Haleigh was out on the tracks. The officers and dispatch on duty when this happened would be very familiar with the train's routine schedule, so maybe a passing freight train could've thrown the scent.

Crystal's father lives on xxx near Georgetown, I believe. The abandoned building or shack was near there.

Hmmm....

Thanks for all the stuff to chew on.

 

[Capri]

I thought this may deserve a thread of it's own. Mods feel free to move if needed. There seems to be some legitimate concerns regarding statements made by LE/media and how these dogs track/alert. What group/groups are the K-9's from?

The source referenced yesterday states Canine South is the group used.

Please post any resources you may find here, on K-9 South, or other tracking K-9's used in the searches.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=132277&catid=3

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29413162/

 

[ksgirl78]

The searchers are from “Canine South”, a group made up of volunteers who train and own their own cadaver dogs. They are comprised of dog owners from south Georgia and all over the state of Florida.

One of those men is a Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office patrol Sergeant. His name is Brian Selzer and said his hope is that his dog Eli doesn’t find anything.

http://www.cbs47.com/content/topsto...-Haleigh-Cummings/Rm7jB35cEkKoHQPaTR_4ug.cspx