Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[Estelle]

My guesses would be:

1. Anger
2. Jealousy
3. She learned something about him that she threatened to expose

....snipped

Like many of you here, I am always wondering what OP's motive would have been? Apparently to prove premeditation, the Prosecution does not have to prove motive. But it helps them if they can identify what could have led up to the murder. That is why the content of the phones and emails, and testimony of family and friends will give us a clearer picture. I agree with kittychi when she says, anger, jealousy and Reeva threatening to expose one of OP's secrets. It could even have been all three. Sometimes there is more than one motive. IMO OP it was his addictions and compulsions that could have led to this killing.

There have been two new articles printed in the MSM recently which have pointed to my current suspicions about OP:

The Blade Runner is said to have viewed X-rated material on his mobile phone, which was recovered at his home in Pretoria.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...#ixzz2uJk7sH4s

OP appears to have neglected and ignored RS that night by being on the phone with his mates for at least a hour altogether between about 6.30pm and 9pm as well as accessing used car and p*rn websites since the time they arrived home! While soft could be said to be harmless in today's society, the above MSM printed that it was not soft OP was watching, it was X-rated or violent which is usually against women. This has often led to a person acting out their fantasies in real life. It is an addiction which escalates. For example, this occurred in the Joan Yeates case in the UK where it led to Vincent Tabak murdering his female neighbour. So IMO the combination of his fascination with guns and a violent fantasy could have been acted out that night if he was in a jealous rage and angry about something that RS had done or was about to do.

IMO OP seems to have been in a dark mood that night childishly ignoring and neglecting RS because she could have warned him at the beginning of the night about her kissing a guy on the TV Reality Show that was to be aired the following Saturday and she predicted he would lose his block about it and had been keeping it quiet until then. She apparently at this stage was still convinced that the Producers will still include this even though she had asked them no to.

RS was in terror over TV snog before being shot
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/late...eing-shot-dead

IMO this could be very significant new evidence that the MSM has not released before.

We have learnt since that Francois Hougard did not send RS a text message that night and we did not really think it was his jealousy over RS seeing Warren Lahoud the day before but it could have contributed, I guess.

So just before the trial begins, we now learn about this "snog" which was about to air on SA TV the next Saturday on the Reality Show.

Now when was that filmed? 2013 but not sure which month. RS only started dating OP in November 2013 so she was probably not even in a relationship with him then if it was filmed before they met.

I guess OP feared for his public image and did not like the idea of his girlfriend
kissing another guy on TV. How would he like to be in a relationship with an actress then?

RS' friend has been reported as telling police that RS was deeply concerned about the truth coming out because Pistorius was likely to “blow his top” at the news.

So apparently RS’s kiss with another man is set to play a big part in the murder trial.

This article claims that OP will claim that RS admitted to having a smooch while filming the reality show Tropika Island Of Treasure. RS had begged producers not to include the footage of her kissing the man in the final edit as she was terrified about how Pistorius would react as OP had real anger problems and could become violent. But she was still convinced that they might air it.

So did RS tell OP about this before or on the night she died and this was why he ignored and neglected her that night and did not open her present or buy her one? It makes sense to me that if OP knew, this could have started their argument later or the reason for his neglect.

Then we have another possible scenario that while OP was neglecting RS, she had plenty of time to secretly search his house and might have come across something she considered illegal or caught him doing something illegal such as watching this X-rated and threatened to expose him.

In summary, there could have been many things which happened that night which led to OP's actions and their conflict escalated.

It will be interesting to learn what they found on his WhatsApp while the Prosecution were in the USA recently.

The Defence will then try to counter this with many good character references.

 

[Estelle]

Oh that is interesting and quite a contradiction.

There is really no explanation for what the witness heard, other than he's lying:

-if he believed it was an intruder, he would have no reason to lie about his screams for help. He would have just said, something like, I was screaming for Someone to hear and help me (from the intruder).
-he didn't mention Reeva's screams. If she screamed after he shot her once, why the other 3 shots? And he would have no reason to lie about it if it was all really just a terrible accident.

You make a very good point about the cricket bat. Maybe Reeva was using on him for defense, that's why he was screaming for help. She locks herself in bathroom. He is incensed, gets his gun out, and goes and shoots her.

But if he really didn't have his prosthetics on, why wouldn't she just run out the door (during the struggle/fight)?

RS could not run out his bedroom door as it was locked! So where was the key? IMO OP could have locked RS in there earlier in the night so she could not go home and hid the key so all she could do was run to the toilet and lock herself in there.

“As I did not have my prosthetic legs on I felt extremely vulnerable. I had to protect Reeva and myself. ... I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps,” it said.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-mistakenly-shot-deeply-loved-girlfriend?lite

 

[Carol70]

do we have confirmation on this ? ..

I thought 344 was a good little distance with respect to what you can credibly hear .. but 580 would really put it out there .. not sure you can be completely sure of what you heard from that far especially given that there are also structures in that same path from her house to his house

On the previous page I posted an ariel view of where she lives in relation to OP. It really is some distance away OP balcony also faces in the opposite direction so to be sure she heard a mans voice is going to take some convincing.

 

[Estelle]

My gut feeling is that this unemotional, "help, help, help" from OP heard after RS' two sets of screams and before the four shots could have been said to give the impression that OP needed help with coping with this so-called intruder as he said it just before firing the four shots.

Then to confuse things, in his Affidavit, he tries to counter that by saying that he called on the balcony for help AFTER he realised he shot Reeva.

IMO this could point to some sort of planning/premeditation hoping that he could argue that if others heard it, it was in the wrong sequence.

Then to cap all this off, when the security guards called him he said he was "fine" and di not need their help.

Criminals often believe that confusion is good.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

RS could not run out his bedroom door as it was locked! So where was the key? IMO OP could have locked RS in there earlier in the night so she could not go home and hid the key so all she could do was run to the toilet and lock herself in there.

Super weird that she locked the door too IMO .. Ladies, who amongst you has ever locked the toilet door when at boyfriends house when it is just the two of you? Sometimes the door would even remain open especially at night. A locked door makes me lean towards the likelihood that she locked herself in there to get away from a raging Oscar. JMO.

 

[minor4th]

OP hasn't claimed an intruder ran into the bedroom and then into the bathroom. His claim is that he heard noises from the bathroom, got freaked out that there was an intruder in there, etc. There had been previous break-in incidents at the Silver Woods estate where OP lived.

Even today's witness (Burger) said that she had heard gunshots in the neighborhood in the past - she offered this without any prompting.

 

[minor4th]

Premeditation (at least here in the US) is a legal concept of forming a rational thought or intent to kill. Like if someone is being strangled, it takes 3+ minutes to strangle someone to death. Within mere seconds the killer knows if he/she continues to restrict the victim's airway they will die. If they continue to do so, that constitutes "premeditation."

So in the OP case, one could argue that he knew if he picked up a gun and fired shots into a small closed bathroom he would likely kill whoever was in there, or at least grievously injure them. And then he shot the gun anyway, pausing between the first and second shot, as he did so. A good prosecutor would argue that the intent was formed from the point where OP picked up the gun and completed 4 shots. Premeditation can be formed in a matter of seconds. It doesn't require pre-planning a killing.

If you know you could kill someone by your weapon & actions & then you continue with your actions, that could meet the premeditation burden.

I don't really think there's any disagreement about whether he intended to kill when he shot the gun through the door. Premeditated murder has to be a specific intent to kill the person who was shot and died.

 

[Madeleine74]

I don't really think there's any disagreement about whether he intended to kill when he shot the gun through the door. Premeditated murder has to be a specific intent to kill the person who was shot and died.

I was answering a question someone had about premeditation and what constitutes premeditation.

 

[SStarr33]

Super weird that she locked the door too IMO .. Ladies, who amongst you has ever locked the toilet door when at boyfriends house when it is just the two of you? Sometimes the door would even remain open especially at night. A locked door makes me lean towards the likelihood that she locked herself in there to get away from a raging Oscar. JMO.

I would lock it.

 

[minor4th]

Yes....the blood curdling screams woke her up. That to me, indicates there was some severe trauma going on before he shot her. Maybe there is merit to him beating her with the cricket bat before shooting her. The bat apparently had blood on it which Oscar says was blood spatter.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...end-Reeva-Steenkamp-cricket-bat-shot-her.html

There were no bruises or any other injuries to her other than the shots he fired. This is according to a statement from the medical examiner who did the autopsy

 

[minor4th]

do we have confirmation on this ? ..

I thought 344 was a good little distance with respect to what you can credibly hear .. but 580 would really put it out there .. not sure you can be completely sure of what you heard from that far especially given that there are also structures in that same path from her house to his house

It's 177 meters, or 194 yards -- think two football fields. I think it would be hard to hear very much or very clearly at that distance.

We've got a lot of trial ahead of us, and there are other neighbors who lived much closer who will testify. We should not make conclusions from only one witness. Her credibility may be corroborated by the other witnesses, or it may be undermined.

 

[Irisha]

Super weird that she locked the door too IMO .. Ladies, who amongst you has ever locked the toilet door when at boyfriends house when it is just the two of you? Sometimes the door would even remain open especially at night. A locked door makes me lean towards the likelihood that she locked herself in there to get away from a raging Oscar. JMO.

Didn't she a a few cell phones in the bathroom with her? And he called a family member or friend? before calling for real help. So apparantly she didn't even have time to call for help on any of the cell phones if that's true about the phones. I don't recall if I ever locked the door at a boyfriends house while in the bathroom, probably not.

 

[Estelle]

Even today's witness (Burger) said that she had heard gunshots in the neighborhood in the past - she offered this without any prompting.

I don't think she said she heard gunshots in the past in her neighborhood - as she said hers was a safe neighborhood - but she had heard gunshots before. Did she add that she thought most South Africans had heard gunshots?

 

[Estelle]

Didn't she a a few cell phones in the bathroom with her? And he called a family member or friend? before calling for real help. So apparantly she didn't even have time to call for help on any of the cell phones if that's true about the phones. I don't recall if I ever locked the door at a boyfriends house while in the bathroom, probably not.

IMO RS grabbed the phones and went into the bathroom to call police or someone then he came after her so she ran quickly into the toilet and locked the door.

I never lock the toilet door when sharing my house with anyone especially not a lover. If I could not trust them to knock on the door first, I would not be with them.

 

[minor4th]

Oh that is interesting and quite a contradiction.

There is really no explanation for what the witness heard, other than he's lying:

-if he believed it was an intruder, he would have no reason to lie about his screams for help. He would have just said, something like, I was screaming for Someone to hear and help me (from the intruder).
-he didn't mention Reeva's screams. If she screamed after he shot her once, why the other 3 shots? And he would have no reason to lie about it if it was all really just a terrible accident.

You make a very goof point about the cricket bat. Maybe Reeva was using on him for defense, that's why he was screaming for help. She locks herself in bathroom. He is incensed, gets his gun out, and goes and shoots her.

But if he really didn't have his prosthetics on, why wouldn't she just run out the door (during the struggle/fight)?

Another explanation is that the witness' account is not entirely accurate. We have two accounts - one from Pistorius and one from Burger, and they don't match. I think it will become clear which version is more likely when we hear from some more witnesses and determine if their accounts line up with either Oscar's story of the Burger's.

If Oscar killed her on purpose, then obviously he has motive to lie, so you have to automatically be suspicious of his account. On the other hand, there are problems with Burger - she was a considerable distance from Oscar's house and she collected information and got her story straight with her husband for a couple of weeks before she gave a statement to police. Even so, her testimony in court is more embellished than her statement given to police.

It's too early in the trial to decide who's credible and who's not. So far, there is much speculation about what Oscar's motive could have been - but so far there has been no evidence or reports that corroborate the speculation.

 

[minor4th]

I don't think she said she heard gunshots in the past in her neighborhood - as she said hers was a safe neighborhood - but she had heard gunshots before. Did she add that she thought most South Africans had heard gunshots?

She definitely said she had heard gunshots in the neighborhood in the past. I had to rewind and listen again because I was surprised at what I thought I heard.

ETA:

Here's the portion of the transcript:

Roux: You are confidant to stay that those were gunshots?

Burger: I am convinced that they were gunshots. I've heard shots in the neighbourhood before. I have also fired a gun at a shooting range before.​

 

[sorrell skye]

Even today's witness (Burger) said that she had heard gunshots in the neighborhood in the past - she offered this without any prompting.

I just watched the relevant portion of the trial video again to fact-check this.

When Mr. Roux asked Ms. Burger if she had heard gunshots in her current neighborhood (apart from the Feb.14 , 2013 shooting), she emphatically stated "No, we live in an extremely safe neighborhood."

1:28:44 on the Day 1/Part 2 video.

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

 

[Chelly]

These testimonies will be very tedious to listen to if Roux is going to nitpick witnesses in this manner "after hearing what you call the shots."

He is grasping at straws because he has nothing else. Pathetic, really. I commend this witness for staying steadfast!

:yes:

.

What a bully this attorney is! When I watch trials like this and the Amanda Knox trial, I am even more thankful that I live in U.S.

 

[lisasalinger]

I'm familiar with parts of Oscar's statement but not the entire thing. Is there a place where I can find that?

For anybody who is familiar with his whole statement, I have some questions:

1. What prompted him in the early morning hours (3am or so) to get up out of bed in the pitch black and bring fans in from the balcony?

2. Why were there fans on the balcony? Seems like an odd place to have them.

3. Did the police recover these fans and where were they located?

4. I've read that in an initial statement he said that he had been speaking to Reeva in bed before he went to get the fans, and then in another later statement he said she was asleep at the time. Was that ever cleared up?

Thanks

 

[Mrs G Norris]

The fact that he could not remember his phone's password is also suspicious: http://allafrica.com/view/group/main/main/id/00024786.html