Trial Discussion Thread #1 - 14.03.03-06, Day 1-4

[Lyra500]

If that were the case, it worked, the panel broke away, he can get to her. Why stop and switch to a gun?

The panel which was broken did not leave a hole large enough to get through. He also mentioned that the key fell on the floor on the inside of the door, so in theory he still would not have been able to get in even if he could see Reeva. So, not being able to unlock the door might have wound him up even more.

Is there anyone medical here who could answer this and i apologise if it it too gruesome for some, but timelines are so crucial....

Another FM posted some of the doctor's testimony and he mentioned looking in Reeva's eye, noting the pupil was fixed and dilated and that the eye had started to dry out. Is it usual for the eye to start drying out within minutes of death?

 

[Trooper]

I have zero problem with anyone involved in a shooting, accidental or otherwise, calling their lawyer.

As to your second and third points, they are valid problems for his story.

I accept that this is probably a culture gap on my part.. my problem with it is.. I think he called his lawyer when he disappeared upstairs while the Dr was despairingly working on Reeva.. I wont know until that question is asked of Oscar, I suppose.. what time did you ring your lawyer?? it bothers me because he didn't ring his parents, her parents, the police, an ambulance .. at least an ambulance.. no one did, for quite some time, even though a terrible and frightening event had taken place..

Stipps testimony was, that he was moaning and distraught and saying he would dedicate his life to Reeva if only God would save her etc, and more on that line, then suddenly disappears upstairs.

it has oddness in it, to me.. but that's the point of various views, is it not.

 

[Schuby]

The panel which was broken did not leave a hole large enough to get through. He also mentioned that the key fell on the floor on the inside of the door, so in theory he still would not have been able to get in even if he could see Reeva. So, not being able to unlock the door might have wound him up even more.

Is there anyone medical here who could answer this and i apologise if it it too gruesome for some, but timelines are so crucial....

Another FM posted some of the doctor's testimony and he mentioned looking in Reeva's eye, noting the pupil was fixed and dilated and that the eye had started to dry out. Is it usual for the eye to start drying out within minutes of death?

My point is, if his first plan was to get to her by knocking the door in, that plan was working, and particularly, after the panel is knocked out, the structural integrity is compromised, it only needs another whack and he's in, he's got her.

 

[Trooper]

Except that his dramatic grief abated enough for him to sort his affairs efficiently enough for security to be calling the doctor within a couple of hours to inform him that OP's lawyer would be in touch.

And why did he need to go upstairs when doc was trying to help Reeva?

That testimony about a fully lit bathroom with someone moving around it whilst the screaming and shooting was going on really is pretty momentous.

within LESS than an hour.. shooting, 3.19am... call to the Dr from the security guard informing Stipp that Oscars lawyer would be in touch very soon..

AT FOUR SEVENTEEN am.. not even an hour.

 

[Schuby]

I accept that this is probably a culture gap on my part.. my problem with it is.. I think he called his lawyer when he disappeared upstairs while the Dr was despairingly working on Reeva.. I wont know until that question is asked of Oscar, I suppose.. what time did you ring your lawyer?? it bothers me because he didn't ring his parents, her parents, the police, an ambulance .. at least an ambulance.. no one did, for quite some time, even though a terrible and frightening event had taken place..

Stipps testimony was, that he was moaning and distraught and saying he would dedicate his life to Reeva if only God would save her etc, and more on that line, then suddenly disappears upstairs.

it has oddness in it, to me.. but that's the point of various views, is it not.

I thought he called both a public ambulance and a private ambulance service right after getting the door open? He claimed he did in his affidavit, surely if that is false the phone records would show it.

 

[Lyra500]

within LESS than an hour.. shooting, 3.19am... call to the Dr from the security guard informing Stipp that Oscars lawyer would be in touch very soon..

AT FOUR SEVENTEEN am.. not even an hour.

Well maybe it's just me, but that seems pretty cold - taking care of business i suppose.

 

[dgfred]

I know you didn't ask me but I can offer a response. It matters because if she is screaming before the first shot, you have a woman cognizant of a pending assault. Thus she cannot be on a routine bathroom visit and unaware of lurking danger.

If she screams not before but at least in response to/during the shooting, the case to be made is that had he actually believed himself to be confronting an intruder and not Reeva, he'd have ceased firing when she began to scream after the first shot.

OK, I got that but...
IIRC I read when the case first happened that according to the actual law if he shot anybody he was guilty of manslaughter or a form of murder. Is that correct? If that is true I guess the lawyers would be fighting for the lessor of the charges... but not a likely not-guilty. So maybe that law was just media reports and not completely correct. I don't really remember now and don't know for sure.

Whether the victim screams before is not relevant to that but I think it can be shown whether the bat or the bullets came first. If the bat is first the screams were before the shots. If the bullets are first he still shot somebody not knowing who was in there at best. Screams or not.

 

[Lyra500]

I thought he called both a public ambulance and a private ambulance service right after getting the door open? He claimed he did in his affidavit, surely if that is false the phone records would show it.

Depends which phone given that he has 'forgotten' the passcode for his iPhone.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Here is a website that summarizes the changes:

Eyes

Within minutes the cornea films over, and the white of the eye goes grey.

After around two hours the cornea goes cloudy, and within a day or two it goes opaque.


http://www.mitchpileggi.net/Deep_Background/resources/forensics/bodies.htm

 

[shane13]

Does anyone know who is testifying tmow? (Other than the continuation of Dr. S.?)

And is there a site that tells you this the day before?

 

[ShadyLady]

I can't wait till her ex-boyfriend testifies. Something tells me this was a jealous rage complicated by steroids. That night was obviously not a night of love....

 

[aa9511]

First: Thank you so much to all of you for your updates and grateful statements. This makes it possible for me to imagine what happened in court the last two days. Thanks a lot :loveyou: :blowkiss: :tyou:


Changing the actions OP claimed in his affidavit perhaps could explain what the witnesses heard - maybe I'm wrong with my following speculations but I don’t believe OP’s affidavit version


1. there was an argument.... he attacked Reeva.... she fled (with her iPhone) into the toilet room, locked the door...

2. OP threatened her: "Come out by yourself or I'll get you out!".... Reeva said: "NO! If you will do this I call for help, I have my handy with me"

3. OP becomes increasingly angry.... he takes his cricket bat.... banging against the door once....

4. Reeva screams for help.... OP imitate her screams... thinks he is in a stronger position because of her fear...

5. Reeva screams louder....

6. OP banging against the door several times.... one door panel smashed....

7. now he can see Reeva inside the toilet room....

8. Reeva is crying, screaming desperately for help very loud.... (the bathroom window is open, neighbours could hear her screams)....

8. OP takes his gun... turns on the lights in the bathroom for a better view....

9. he fires the first shot through the not broken part of the door, aiming where he sees Reeva - this hits Reeva's thigh.... she's still screaming....

10. now OP knows he must bring Reeva to silence..... he fires the second shot through the broken panel, he can see exactly where Reeva is - this hits Reeva's shoulder because she's still moving, trying to dodge the gunshots.... still screaming....

11. OP fired the third shot through the broken panel... this hits Reeva's head..... her screams fall silent... Reeva is dead immediately.... time: appr. 3:17…..

12. OP fired the fourth and last shot, again through the not broken panel.... Reeva lies on the ground of the toilet room.... this shot hits the toilet wall but it doesn't matter....

13. OP goes to the balcony, screaming for help.... he takes his iPhone and returns to the bathroom.... he calls Stander.... goes downstairs to open the door....

14. back in the bathroom.... OP opens the toilet door.... pulls out Reeva from the toilet room.... grabs her bloody iPhone and places it at the bathmat near the cricket bat and his gun...

15. then he carries Reeva downstairs....


* first he used the cricket bat, then his gun.... that's the reason why no witness heard the bang... bang... bang noise of the cricket bat....

* two shots through the not broken panel, two shots through the broken panel....

* witnesses didn't heard the cricket bat noises because this wasn't as loud and two people cried very loud all the time.... they awoke by Reeva's screams.... the next they heard were the gunshots in which Reeva's voice broke off...

Yes, absolutely. This sounds very possible and likely.

The door had only 2 bullet holes in it, is this correct?

So then, by necessity, the 2 other bullets had to have gone through an opening in the door.

So he must have knocked the panel open of the door FIRST.

 

[Schuby]

Well maybe it's just me, but that seems pretty cold - taking care of business i suppose.

I can see why many would see it as cold but to me it would be incredibly naive to do anything else. I don't see how someone could not call their lawyer immediately.

 

[dgfred]

My point is, if his first plan was to get to her by knocking the door in, that plan was working, and particularly, after the panel is knocked out, the structural integrity is compromised, it only needs another whack and he's in, he's got her.

Unless her call was going through?

She was actually going to look at his instead of just threatening to?

If you don't stop... I'm going to call the police?

Overcome by rage of no immediate satisfaction of stopping her?

???

 

[Lyra500]

Here is a website that summarizes the changes:

Eyes

Within minutes the cornea films over, and the white of the eye goes grey.

After around two hours the cornea goes cloudy, and within a day or two it goes opaque.


http://www.mitchpileggi.net/Deep_Background/resources/forensics/bodies.htm

Thank you

 

[Schuby]

Depends which phone given that he has 'forgotten' the passcode for his iPhone.

Phone records are kept by the service provider. Also, he didn't "forget" his phone pass ode, it was a pass code to an app on his phone that he forgot.

 

[Trooper]

I thought he called both a public ambulance and a private ambulance service right after getting the door open? He claimed he did in his affidavit, surely if that is false the phone records would show it.

I checked back you are correct, schube,. the ambulance and police had not arrived by the time the Dr left to go home, around 4am.. give or take a minute either way.. in Dr stipps testimony yesterday, he said he asked the security guard if these matters had been attended to and the guard, Mr Stander said HE had called these facilities.. so maybe both did. at the time of writing I was going by that testimony , .. that guard did the calling.. he was calling all over the place that night.. .. either way, no one rang Reevas parents from the house that night..

and Oscar was onto his lawyer in less than an hour after the shooting, and if Oscars story is true, she was alive when he carried her downstairs, less than 45 -50 mins after Reeva expired.

 

[Cherwell]

And if the panel broke away before he shot, why'd he miss on one and nail her thigh/elbow on others? Did he do that on purpose too as part of this diabolical master plan?

Because she was moving?

 

[Schuby]

Unless her call was going through?

She was actually going to look at his instead of just threatening to?

If you don't stop... I'm going to call the police?

Overcome by rage of no immediate satisfaction of stopping her?

???

If she was on the phone, who with? Why is there no telephoned party?

 

[dgfred]

And if the panel broke away before he shot, why'd he miss on one and nail her thigh/elbow on others? Did he do that on purpose too as part of this diabolical master plan?

She dodging a bit maybe? No light/low light? Light behing him/dark in front?