Trial Discussion Thread #10 - 14.03.19, Day 13

[YESorNO]

I was finding the trial very hard to follow on HLN- with the different accents and whatnot.
I did find this website that I subscribed to, that gave me recaps of the trial everyday in my mailbox:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/20/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/

Just FYI.

Thanks for all the posts. :seeya:

 

[Trooper]

Indeed! Seems to be a lot of reinterpretation of just about everything going on. :floorlaugh:

persistently and relentlessly.. I have no clue as to the posters motive for this, and I couldn't care less why.. I merely restate the evidence so far tabled.. its an exercise in adherence to reality and a refutation of fantasy..

 

[minor4th]

Indeed! Seems to be a lot of reinterpretation of just about everything going on. :floorlaugh:

Regarding the timing of the additional gun charges, these were added 9 months after his arrest for murder:

NOVEMBER 20, 2013

Oscar Pistorius has been indicted on two new gun-related charges, which are believed to allege that he recklessly shot his gun out of the open sunroof of a car last year and fired someone else's handgun at a restaurant weeks before he killed his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

The double-amputee Olympian has already been indicted on a main charge of murder for Steenkamp's shooting in February and a charge of illegal possession of ammunition in his Pretoria home.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/20/oscar-pistorius-new-gun-charges

 

[Really?]

the state has given evidence of a woman screaming.. at exactly the same time as Reeva was shot.. evidence of the location of that scream..

it would be a loooooooong stretch to then conclude that various women all over that estate were screaming for no reason at 3.15 am ..

Even Oscar hasn't propositioned this. his story is, he heard up to the faint sound of a noise in the bathroom.

if , indeed, there were OTHER women screaming. a whole chorus of them. all with the same fear and panic as testified to by Mrs Burger, and Dr Stipp then wouldn't that have woken Oscar up as well?


to claim the State has given no evidence of a woman screaming is a distortion of fact. It has. two witnesses.. not counting the one witness who heard loud argument between a man and a woman an hour before the shots...

How weird is that? Really?

Ask the neighbors how many nights they have been woken from these screaming ladies of the night.

 

[Trooper]

I'll see if I can lay it out more fully:

State and defense both agree that there were 4 gunshots and there was also a cricket bat breaking the door - at least a couple of whacks. There seems to be no dispute that some time elapsed between these two events.

A. Stipp - Dr Stipp heard two sets of bangs - one at ~ 3:10 a.m. (3 or 4), which woke him up. He then heard screaming/yelling, but that did not start until after the bangs at 3:10.

After the first bangs at 3:10, followed by screaming/yelling, Stipp then heard a second set of "2 or 3" bangs at 3:17 a.m.

B. Burger and Johnson - Burger and Johnson were awoken by screaming (some time before 3:17);

They then heard loud bangs at 3:17 (coinciding perfectly with the SECOND set of bangs heard by Stipp.)

C. Vermuelen -State's witness - Forensic evidence shows that the 4 gunshots were before the cricket bat striking the door

D. Ballistics Guy - State's witness - Oscar was on his stumps when he fired the gunshots and was standing more than 60 cm away from the door (consistent with OP's version)

If you consider all of that together, then the only way to reconcile is:


1. The gunshots happened at 3:10

2. The cricket bat breaking the door happened at 3:17 but sounded like gunshots to all who heard them.

3. Screaming was not heard by anyone until after the gunshots at 3:10

4. Reeva was incapacitated by the gunshots at 3:10 and could not have been screaming thereafter

:trainwreck:

I don't see any other way to put these testimonies in context unless you disregard the state's own forensic witnesses and also disregard Stipp's account of hearing 2 sets of bangs.

:floorlaugh:

 

[Viper]

I'll see if I can lay it out more fully:

State and defense both agree that there were 4 gunshots and there was also a cricket bat breaking the door - at least a couple of whacks. There seems to be no dispute that some time elapsed between these two events.

A. Stipp - Dr Stipp heard two sets of bangs - one at ~ 3:10 a.m. (3 or 4), which woke him up. He then heard screaming/yelling, but that did not start until after the bangs at 3:10.

After the first bangs at 3:10, followed by screaming/yelling, Stipp then heard a second set of "2 or 3" bangs at 3:17 a.m.

B. Burger and Johnson - Burger and Johnson were awoken by screaming (some time before 3:17);

They then heard loud bangs at 3:17 (coinciding perfectly with the SECOND set of bangs heard by Stipp.)

C. Vermuelen -State's witness - Forensic evidence shows that the 4 gunshots were before the cricket bat striking the door

D. Ballistics Guy - State's witness - Oscar was on his stumps when he fired the gunshots and was standing more than 60 cm away from the door (consistent with OP's version)

If you consider all of that together, then the only way to reconcile is:


1. The gunshots happened at 3:10

2. The cricket bat breaking the door happened at 3:17 but sounded like gunshots to all who heard them.

3. Screaming was not heard by anyone until after the gunshots at 3:10

4. Reeva was incapacitated by the gunshots at 3:10 and could not have been screaming thereafter

5. Any screaming/crying/yelling heard after 3:10 must have been Oscar, including screaming during and after he was breaking the door with the cricket bat.

I don't see any other way to put these testimonies in context unless you disregard the state's own forensic witnesses and also disregard Stipp's account of hearing 2 sets of bangs.

Actually you are leaving out what Nel is putting forth. The bat strikes were first - used scare/threaten Reeva. The gun shots came next. Insert Reeva's screaming bloody murder before OP opened fire and during subsequent shots. Then insert OP pathetically yelling from his balcony as a cover for his crime.

Respectfully, if you post something as "the only possible way it could have happened" and that is not fact but instead just your take on things it would be most courteous to state that that is only your opinion so that people, me, won't get confused.

 

[MeeBee]

So how do you guys explain the gunshots going through the broken panel?

 

[Rumpole]

Actually you are leaving out what Nel is putting forth. The bat strikes were first - used scare/threaten Reeva. The gun shots came next. Insert Reeva's screaming bloody murder before OP opened fire and during subsequent shots. Then insert OP pathetically yelling from his balcony as a cover for his crime.

Respectfully, if you post something as "the only possible way it could have happened" and that is not fact but instead just your take on things it would be most courteous to state that that is only your opinion so that people, me, won't get confused.

Nel is NOT proposing bat strikes came first. Quite the opposite. His witneses are clear that the shots came first.

Everybody involved agrees on that. It is no longer in question?

 

[Really?]

Whatever Reeva's mother has said in media reports is not evidence in this trial. I'm talking about what the state has actually presented as evidence. Sure, one can imagine that he was possessive and controlling and could get worked up in a rage and kill his girlfriend - but being able to imagine it is not proof, kwim?

Well *cough* I would hope that if I was in an abusive relationship and had confided in those closest to me I would hope that those confidants would be some sort of witness. No?

 

[minor4th]

Actually you are leaving out what Nel is putting forth. The bat strikes were first - used scare/threaten Reeva. The gun shots came next. Insert Reeva's screaming bloody murder before OP opened fire and during subsequent shots. Then insert OP pathetically yelling from his balcony as a cover for his crime.

Respectfully, if you post something as "the only possible way it could have happened" and that is not fact but instead just your take on things it would be most courteous to state that that is only your opinion so that people, me, won't get confused.

No, the only evidence is that the gunshots came before the cricket bat hitting the door. That was from the State's forensic witness - two of them in fact. I don't think this can be disputed because there were bullet holes shot through the panel that was broken out by the cricket bat. Nel is not disputing that - it is his own evidence.

I did not say it's the only possibility - I said I don't know how you can reconcile the state's own evidence in any other way. If you can think of a way, I'm open to any and all possibilities.

In your scenario - you are disregarding the states' evidence that the gunshots were before the cricket bat, and you're also disregarding Stipp's testimony that he heard two sets of bangs at 3:10 and 3:17. If you believe that those witnesses and the forensic evidence is not credible, that's fine - but that is the only way to arrive at your conclusions.

But tell me, under your scenario, when did the gunshots occur and when did the cricket bat breaking the door occur?

What did Stipp hear at 3:10 that sounded like gunshots and woke him up?

I went through that long explanation because you said you were not following what I was saying.

 

[katydid23]

Looking at it from the point of view that OP did believe an intruder was in his house, I can understand how events unfolded.
When under severe stress or in a panic situation people do not always behave in a rational manner. Some people may freeze, some flee and some fight. In his mind he'd left Reeva moments before in bed. Within moments of him being up he heard sounds, he panicked and in his mind Reeva was still where she was moments earlier, in bed. Does everybody analyse their every word and deed when in a potentially life threatening situation? I don't think so.
I have been trying to think of a motive that would make OP kill his girlfriend deliberately. The most obvious would be, as you say, he caught Reeva texting or phoning another man. We don't know yet who's phone was found in the bathroom. Was Reeva hiding in the toilet texting/phoning, or did OP believe wrongly that this was happening? Jealousy is a powerful emotion.
I hope the prosecution brings this up on Monday. If they don't, then it would appear that this was not the case at all.
Also, in the past when OP had family or friends staying overnight and he heard someone moving about outside his own bedroom, I think he would have stopped to think that it could be his guest, and would have been more careful with his gun. But if he believed the only other person in the house was in the same room as him in bed, then he would react differently because the situation is different.

BBM

But the problem with this scenario, is that he himself was also RIGHT THERE, at the bed, where he had last spoken to Reeva. So why not take an extra half a second to check that she was still there? He was within a couple of feet of her side of the bed when he grabbed the gun.

Also, he had many sleepovers with women before. Hadn't he ever experienced a woman going to the toilet in the middle of the night? That makes no sense to me. Why assume it is an intruder behind the toilet door, instead of the much more logical assumption?

IMO< there is no excuse for shooting through that door before checking on his girlfriend's whereabouts. NONE.

 

[minor4th]

Well *cough* I would hope that if I was in an abusive relationship and had confided in those closest to me I would hope that those confidants would be some sort of witness. No?

If you were in an abusive relationship, you should write things down and document with photographs because there is a very good possibility that whoever you confided in would not be allowed to testify about what you said (once you were dead - no disrespect intended)

 

[Peliman]

I don't know about S. African law but in the U.S. it's not necessary to prove motive, although a defense attorney may make light of it.

So from my point of view it's fairly simple, we already know he did it.

1. Did he intend to kill whoever was behind the bathroom door?

2. Do you believe he knew Reeva was behind the bathroom door?

 

[Viper]

Nel is NOT proposing bat strikes came first. Quite the opposite. His witneses are clear that the shots came first.

Everybody involved agrees on that. It is no longer in question?

You may not be watching all of the testimony. Mr. Nel asked the bat forensic witness whether or not his investigation would support the minor marks on the door were intended to break down the door or were they more constant with using the bat to scare Reeva, he affirmed "scare". That is is where the state's case is going.

What did you think the state was going after? :facepalm:

 

[Really?]

My thought minor is that he is so fearful of intruders that this time was different. He didn't just think he heard someone, he did hear someone in there rustling around and just went to full on, irrational panic mode. He zeroed in on the intruder he'd always feared and wasn't thinking rationally and, in his mind, thought Reeva was still in bed because he was just talking to her.

It makes sense that Reeva stirred awake and went to use the bathroom. Whenever I wake in the night I always have to get up to use the restroom because it's been hours since I've used the restroom and my body has been holding it.

BBM...thank you for this.....This is the very reason he should be locked up. Away from society. Trigger happy. moo

 

[LemonMousse]

I'll see if I can lay it out more fully:

State and defense both agree that there were 4 gunshots and there was also a cricket bat breaking the door - at least a couple of whacks. There seems to be no dispute that some time elapsed between these two events.

A. Stipp - Dr Stipp heard two sets of bangs - one at ~ 3:10 a.m. (3 or 4), which woke him up. He then heard screaming/yelling, but that did not start until after the bangs at 3:10.

After the first bangs at 3:10, followed by screaming/yelling, Stipp then heard a second set of "2 or 3" bangs at 3:17 a.m.

B. Burger and Johnson - Burger and Johnson were awoken by screaming (some time before 3:17);

They then heard loud bangs at 3:17 (coinciding perfectly with the SECOND set of bangs heard by Stipp.)

C. Vermuelen -State's witness - Forensic evidence shows that the 4 gunshots were before the cricket bat striking the door

D. Ballistics Guy - State's witness - Oscar was on his stumps when he fired the gunshots and was standing more than 60 cm away from the door (consistent with OP's version)

If you consider all of that together, then the only way to reconcile is:


1. The gunshots happened at 3:10

2. The cricket bat breaking the door happened at 3:17 but sounded like gunshots to all who heard them.

3. Screaming was not heard by anyone until after the gunshots at 3:10

4. Reeva was incapacitated by the gunshots at 3:10 and could not have been screaming thereafter

5. Any screaming/crying/yelling heard after 3:10 must have been Oscar, including screaming during and after he was breaking the door with the cricket bat.

I don't see any other way to put these testimonies in context unless you disregard the state's own forensic witnesses and also disregard Stipp's account of hearing 2 sets of bangs.

Well, to be pedantic Point A - if the bangs at 3.10 woke Stipp, then he doesn't know whether there was any screaming or yelling before then because he was asleep. So it's not really correct to say they didn't start until after that - just that that was the first he heard.

Point C: No, the gunshots were before the door was broken open. Clearly OP used the bat to do this, but they showed that he'd inserted the bat into a broken off piece and prised out the panel. All the pieces of door seemed neat - if it had caved in through almighty whacks so powerful they could be heard some distance away, then it would all have splintered - as it did when a bullet shot through.

There were a few splinters, but the pieces were intact enough that the door could be reassembled. This doesn't suggest that enormous force was used, or needed to be.

I don't think anyone heard the bat on the door that night - not loud enough and too far away. I think the noises that sounded like gunshots to everybody were probably gunshots. We know of four because we have the physical evidence. Doesn't mean these were the only ones - he was standing near an open window, and he's not been averse to shooting into the sky before, has he?

And yes, this is all supposition on my part and no, it doesn't prove anything. That's why I don't think the state can prove pre-meditation because all the physical evidence is consistent with OP's story.

 

[Cherwell]

No, the only evidence is that the gunshots came before the cricket bat hitting the door. That was from the State's forensic witness - two of them in fact. I don't think this can be disputed because there were bullet holes shot through the panel that was broken out by the cricket bat. Nel is not disputing that - it is his own evidence.

I did not say it's the only possibility - I said I don't know how you can reconcile the state's own evidence in any other way. If you can think of a way, I'm open to any and all possibilities.

In your scenario - you are disregarding the states' evidence that the gunshots were before the cricket bat, and you're also disregarding Stipp's testimony that he heard two sets of bangs at 3:10 and 3:17. If you believe that those witnesses and the forensic evidence is not credible, that's fine - but that is the only way to arrive at your conclusions.

But tell me, under your scenario, when did the gunshots occur and when did the cricket bat breaking the door occur?

What did Stipp hear at 3:10 that sounded like gunshots and woke him up?

I went through that long explanation because you said you were not following what I was saying.

I don't see why he couldn't have struck the door with the bat, without breaking the panels, before shooting. Then used the bat again to break through the weakened panels afterwards.

 

[Trooper]

no witness.. none, has testified to hearing cricket bats..

Minor states, they mistook the sound of the cricket bat for gunfire.. no. they didn't. they firmly and categorically and unequivocally rejected this suggestion that there was any possibility however remote, that the mistook this proposed scenario.


NO witness heard cricket bat sounds. none...

the ONLY person that can be inferred as to hearing cricket bat sounds, is Oscar. he is, after all the wielder of the bat.. its established that he did, in fact, and incontrovertibly used the bat against the door, because there are the door marks from the bat, AND the bat marks on the door. this is simple to grasp.

it is not at all surprising that no one heard him with the bat. the sound of a cricket bat is not remotely related to gunshot nor can it be mistaken for it in any context whatsoever.

this concept that people heard sounds of gunfire, and mistook that sound of gunfire for a cricket bat is a distortion of the evidence. it has no foundation for credibility. it is a fantasy, a creation and a gross misrepresentation of the evidence testified to..

the fact that it keeps on, persistently, being adhered to brings it out of the area of a mistaken perception and into the area of deliberate misrepresentation of the facts of the matter..

 

[minor4th]

You may not be watching all of the testimony. Mr. Nel asked the bat forensic witness whether or not his investigation would support the minor marks on the door were intended to break down the door or were they more constant with using the bat to scare Reeva, he affirmed "scare". That is is where the state's case is going.

What did you think the state was going after? :facepalm:

I've been watching all of the testimony - and I heard him ask if someone could kick or hit the door to scare the person on the other side. That is not evidence - that is a question from an attorney in an effort to implant some seed of speculation in the minds of those watching the trial. It apparently worked as some now believe there is evidence to support the innuendo. There's not, and the judge will not consider attorney hypotheses as evidence.

The problem with that little suggestion from Nel is that it would contradict his own forensic witnesses and the indisputable physical evidence that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

 

[katydid23]

I don't know that he is getting a lot of support. I have yet to meet anyone who is supporting him. Why would he walk downstairs with Reeva knowing that she was still alive and may live to tell the tale? According to the blood spatter expert witness the blood on the ground floor level beside the stairs came from a bleeding artery, so Reeva's heart was still beating at that point. I couldn't care less that OP is a celebrity or some kind of sporting hero, I had never heard of him prior to this incident. In fact he seems to be quite obnoxious really, but IMO that does not mean he should not have a fair trial.

BBM

Good question. But I doubt that he thought she was going to speak to anyone. According to the Doctor arriving on the scene, her brain matter was leaking from the gaping head wound. I think OP KNEW she was not going to tell anyone what happened.

Why did he carry her downstairs? I wondered if he maybe wanted to mess up the forensics. Just sayin....