Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[soozieqtips]

Hard to believe, but may happen in a few days.

Now if he calmly speaks about seeing and carrying the dying Reeva w.o. retching, vomiting, etc. on the witness stand, some will say the earlier retching was an act.

After all, the image of her is in his mind when he speaks of that aspect. But the same image was in his mind when witnesses talked of this, or when photos were shown in court.

So it the same retching response is not elicited, some will say the prior retching was an act.

Are we about to see and hear one of the great acting performances of all time, or the testimony of an innocent man with an extremely improbable tale of events?

Will Nel grill him, or take it easy on him?

And what about... "security, everything is fine."

I think OP will seal his own fate on the stand. Everything we've seen so far since the killing, the "private" (but publicly staged) memorial he held for Reeva, the conveniently timed words of love and regret a year later on Valentine's day, and the constant retching when forced to face what he's done, seem to me deliberate ways of focusing the attention on himself as the victim. I think he'll also play the victim on the stand (with some carefully placed sobbing and vomiting for the judge's benefit) but the stand is hopefully where he'll have to go into more detail about why he thought it was acceptable to do what he did, why he didn't choose many of the other options available to him, and what made this particular incident different to the others when he also thought there were intruders.

And, um... why did he leave his balcony doors open if he was as paranoid about safety as he claimed to be? He has a lot of questions to answer. Oh, and he claimed in his affidavit that he'd been the victim of death threats, burglaries and violence (to bolster his paranoia claim, I imagine) yet oddly enough, the police don't have a single record of anything logged by OP at all. So that could be all lies as well.

 

[shane13]

The detective novel so far - there was an argument, Oscar started threatening RS with the cricket bat and chased her into the bathroom. She locked herself in the toilet cubicle and stood immediately behind the door where the row continued. She did not expect him to shoot her, after all it was only an argument, so she did not take cover in the true sense but continued the argument through the door. Because he was so angry she would not open the door, OP became incandescant with rage and started bashing the metal plaque on the bath until it fell off. There was a great deal of noise and RS was terrified. She started screaming in terror, not knowing what OP was up to, but knowing he was out of control. OP needed the argument and screaming to stop, fetched his gun and shot through the door 4 times, with a gap after the first shot. RS screamed in agony but he continued to shoot, killing RS in the process. He had to end her life after the first shot because if he allowed RS to live she would need to go to hospital where the police would become involved and his future would be in ruins.


Unfortunately for OP, Stipp, a neighbour, could see the bathroom with the light on and saw what could only have been OP walking across the room (light coloured shape) from the right (RS had a black vest on). At that point Stipp also sees the bathroom window is closed.

Whilst thinking up his alibi OP knew he had to try to create a story about an intruder and slid the window open. Instead of calling an ambulance OP called Stander and during the following hour, in his mind, confirmed his alibi was to be that there was an intruder, he felt under threat, and shot blindly through the door; conveniently forgetting the argument and screaming.

........................

I am sure someone will use this murder as a storyline for a novel.

BBM
Well I tried a week ago to discuss that OP may NOT have been in a state of rage during the final minutes or seconds. But he was in a state incorporating schadenfreude or sadism. And the mocking/mimicking of Reeva's cries for help with his own in a more matter of fact tone according to Dr. Burger, supports my theory, that he was not in a rage when he shot and killed her. It's not so simple.

 

[shane13]

I think OP will seal his own fate on the stand. Everything we've seen so far since the killing, the "private" (but publicly staged) memorial he held for Reeva, the conveniently timed words of love and regret a year later on Valentine's day, and the constant retching when forced to face what he's done, seem to me deliberate ways of focusing the attention on himself as the victim. I think he'll also play the victim on the stand (with some carefully placed sobbing and vomiting for the judge's benefit) but the stand is hopefully where he'll have to go into more detail about why he thought it was acceptable to do what he did, why he didn't choose many of the other options available to him, and what made this particular incident different to the others when he also thought there were intruders.

And, um... why did he leave his balcony doors open if he was as paranoid about safety as he claimed to be? He has a lot of questions to answer. Oh, and he claimed in his affidavit that he'd been the victim of death threats, burglaries and violence (to bolster his paranoia claim, I imagine) yet oddly enough, the police don't have a single record of anything logged by OP at all. So that could be all lies as well.

BBM

Well I thought of at least 1 threatening event that Oscar even went to the Hawks to try to get charges filed agasint someone he was alleging threatened him with violence.

And that is the whole Quinton van der Burgh. and subsequent Mark Batchelor set of events.

But Oscar did go to the Hawks to try to get them to charge Batchelor with threatening him with violence, even though MB would say that OP threatened him with breaking his legs and ****ing him up, as he allegedly did earlier to Quinton van der Burgh.

 

[Viper]

I think OP will seal his own fate on the stand. Everything we've seen so far since the killing, the "private" (but publicly staged) memorial he held for Reeva, the conveniently timed words of love and regret a year later on Valentine's day, and the constant retching when forced to face what he's done, seem to me deliberate ways of focusing the attention on himself as the victim. I think he'll also play the victim on the stand (with some carefully placed sobbing and vomiting for the judge's benefit) but the stand is hopefully where he'll have to go into more detail about why he thought it was acceptable to do what he did, why he didn't choose many of the other options available to him, and what made this particular incident different to the others when he also thought there were intruders.

And, um... why did he leave his balcony doors open if he was as paranoid about safety as he claimed to be? He has a lot of questions to answer. Oh, and he claimed in his affidavit that he'd been the victim of death threats, burglaries and violence (to bolster his paranoia claim, I imagine) yet oddly enough, the police don't have a single record of anything logged by OP at all. So that could be all lies as well.

Great post! You are reminding me of so many of the details!

OPs story was found to be unbelievable by that magistrate that handled his bail hearing and he said as much at the end. Does anyone recall all if the open questions (in his mind) that he read off in front of OP on the final day? Those will certainly have to be addressed in OPs testimony.

 

[Trooper]

The Freudian ( with a bit of Jung ) version of the life of OSCAR.


from the background of OP , we see many instances of his direct conflict with what he is and what he wants others to see him as.. underneath this smiling ( and occasionally vomiting ) façade we can see, with analysis, concentration and after stripping away the veneer, we can deduct Oscar's unconscious yet transparent plan.. .

The bashing of the door on Cassidy.. knocking her off her plaster casted leg..

The shooting in the restaurant, nearly removing Kevin Larena's toes.

the aiming and firing at Reeva's hip..

Threatening to break Marks legs...

see the pattern??

While Oscar wants to be equal.. donning the blades makes him equal, and equipped with his prosthetic legs makes him equal.. Oscars plan is somewhat the reverse of this..

he wants to make everyone else legless. It is the understandable envy of the man who feels cut down by fate, forced to pretend an equality and determined to equalize his world by destroying the legs of everyone else.. one by one..

if that fails, kill 'em!

 

[Trooper]

no doubt about Schadenfreude ,, Oscar being judged by a woman on the bench is about as Schadenfreude -ish as it can get.

Deeply satisfying to a whole lot of people though. me included.

 

[delilah]

In his statement read out in court, OP says:

"I believed that WHEN the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger."

Meaning he did not believe he was in grave danger at the point at which he fired the shots.

He could have fired a warning shot, or he could have fired just the one shot into the cubicle. He didn't. He fired four shots.

Does that not show intent to kill, and that he must therefore be guilty of murder?

 

[shane13]

In his statement read out in court, OP says:

"I believed that WHEN the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger."

Meaning he did not believe he was in grave danger at the point at which he fired the shots.

He could have fired a warning shot, or he could have fired just the one shot into the cubicle. He didn't. He fired four shots.

Does that not show intent to kill, and that he must therefore be guilty of murder?

BBM
Good logic.

 

[delilah]

Still trying to get my head around the toilet scenario and how the defence is going to explain it.

RS is first shot while standing in the cubicle facing the door. She has her pants pulled up. If she got up to go to the loo, one if the following must have happened:

1. She got up and went to the loo, but she didn't flush.(However, there was no paper in the toilet bowl as far as I could see from crime scene photos. Does any woman pee and not use paper or something else ie water afterwards?)
2. She got up and went to the loo, and she flushed. In which case OP must have heard the cistern filling and would surely not have concluded it was a burglar taking a leak.
3. She got up but before she had a pee she hears OP shouting so she forgets about the need to pee and stays in the cubicle, possibly locking the door as a result. So how come her bladder is empty?

 

[steveml]

I've put a link below for anyone who may be interested in gun crime stats for SA. Just throwing it out there, as this is certainly one of the plays that Roux will be using in defense of OP's actions, and to establish why it would not be unreasonable for OP to have such fear regarding his imagined intruder...

http://www.issafrica.org/iss-today/...-we-know-about-home-robberies-in-south-africa

It's quite an interesting read. The gun/robbery stats are about halfway down the page.

 

[Viper]

Yes, they have to be more than just a whim - they have to be "reasonably possibly true" ...as I said.

It is at least reasonably possibly true that Oscar thought there was an intruder in the bathroom. It doesn't matter if that belief was reasonable or justified; it only matters if it is possibly true, and in this case it is. So if he really thought there was an intruder and that it was necessary to protect himself, then we're talking about culpable homicide and not murder.

IIRC that is the argument that has been made time and again here, but it is not at all reasonable because all he heard was a noise and all he saw (identified) was a door. In addition he fired his gun, loaded with the most lethal bullets he could find, four times at the supposed intruder indication an intention to kill. So it is not convincing at all, and not lawful.

OP reminds me of Joran Van Der Sloot. Both of them are good looking young men, both privileged and wealthy, both charming, both believe(ed) that they were above the law and acted out unlawfully, and both are murderers of young women. It was tragic that Natalie's body was never found, and equally tragic that Joran was left free to kill again. I have no doubt that OP is a murderer and I am equally convinced that he will be in prison for a very long time. There will no "celebrity" accommodations for him; fact is his celebrity flew out the window the night that he killed Reeva, and his money went with it!

 

[delilah]

Can someone tell me where OP's panic button is located? I can't recall hearing or reading anything about it, other than he had one.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM
Well I tried a week ago to discuss that OP may NOT have been in a state of rage during the final minutes or seconds. But he was in a state incorporating schadenfreude or sadism. And the mocking/mimicking of Reeva's cries for help with his own in a more matter of fact tone according to Dr. Burger, supports my theory, that he was not in a rage when he shot and killed her. It's not so simple.

As we have evidence that he has an explosive temper and non that he has sadistic tendencies (well not that I have seen), at the moment I tend towards the former but if any evidence is shown that he is sadistic I shall listen to it with an open mind.

 

[Viper]

I've put a link below for anyone who may be interested in gun crime stats for SA. Just throwing it out there, as this is certainly one of the plays that Roux will be using in defense of OP's actions, and to establish why it would not be unreasonable for OP to have such fear regarding his imagined intruder...

http://www.issafrica.org/iss-today/...-we-know-about-home-robberies-in-south-africa

It's quite an interesting read. The gun/robbery stats are about halfway down the page.

There are many problems with using that argument as a defense in this case. Among them are it is too broad, what are the rates within gated communities or even the one OP lived in? And if crime rates are uses, what are the statistics for the abuse of women and for femicide? IIRC the numbers related to abusing females and the killing of females are also "interesting."

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM

Well I thought of at least 1 threatening event that Oscar even went to the Hawks to try to get charges filed agasint someone he was alleging threatened him with violence.

And that is the whole Quinton van der Burgh. and subsequent Mark Batchelor set of events.

But Oscar did go to the Hawks to try to get them to charge Batchelor with threatening him with violence, even though MB would say that OP threatened him with breaking his legs and ****ing him up, as he allegedly did earlier to Quinton van der Burgh.

BBM - that seemed to be a case of 'he did this' and 'he did that', like kids in a playground. But there are no actual police records of intruders, burglaries or death threats - all the crimes OP claims have been committed against him and which would bolster his claim of paranoia and fear on the night he killed Reeva. If the incident where he said he'd break Batchelor's legs for looking at Reeva is the only thing he can come up with (saying he himself was threatened with violence), I don't see how that will qualify as the many incidents he implies have taken place. I think he exaggerated in his affidavit to put forth a reason why he was so 'fearful'.

 

[Viper]

no doubt about Schadenfreude ,, Oscar being judged by a woman on the bench is about as Schadenfreude -ish as it can get.

Deeply satisfying to a whole lot of people though. me included.

Indeed!!! OP drew a bad card by getting this judge, she was a reporter and a woman's rights proponent. She also sentenced a man that had raped three women to 258 years! OP is not going to get a light sentence if she finds him guilty jet because he looks pretty! :smile:

 

[shane13]

As we have evidence that he has an explosive temper and non that he has sadistic tendencies (well not that I have seen), at the moment I tend towards the former but if any evidence is shown that he is sadistic I shall listen to it with an open mind.

there are numerous such evidences on record. I've cited the NY Times article by Sokolove where he said OP drove him at 155 mph in the rain and tailgated.

We know from June Steenkamp that Oscar was speeding and refused to slow down as Reeva implored him, and only did so when June threatened him.
Plenty on record that Oscar liked to watch his passengers squirm in fear. This is either schadendfreude or sadism.

But you seem to ignore my main point.
From testimony of Dr. Burger about the matter of fact tone of the male voice mocking the female's cries for help--Oscar was NOT in a state of rage when he shot and killed Reeva.
He may have been in a state of sadism or schadenfreude.

 

[steveml]

Can someone tell me where OP's panic button is located? I can't recall hearing or reading anything about it, other than he had one.

I'm not sure where the one in OP's house was, although many middle-class homes in SA have a panic button on both sides of the double bed in the master bedroom.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Can someone tell me where OP's panic button is located? I can't recall hearing or reading anything about it, other than he had one.

I don't think we have heard but I would expect one at least to be upstairs and maybe in each room. I think OP is going to have a big problem answering as to why he didn't just leave the house with Reeva and press the button wherever it is or call the guards at that time. That surely would be the normal thing to do. There was no need to rush into the bathroom, not knowing who was there, or shooting 4 times before checking whether or not RS was in bed. I suppose he will say if there was someone in the bathroom there could have been another downstairs. Hopefully we will hear his alibi next week. There are so many questions as to why he behaved the way he did and I think Nel will break his alibi. However, I do see Roux making an absolute nuisance of himself with interruptions. Nel objected little during Roux's cross examination and I tend to think that was because he has a very strong case and has no need to make an issue of everything but, equally, I could be totally wrong.

 

[delilah]

OP has reacted so emotionally to some of the testimony so far, how is he going to react if he's put on the stand?