Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[steveml]

I don't think anyone has to prove that Reeva piddled or didn't. the bare fact is, she left the bed.. ( if she was ever in it, that's Oscars story) and at some stage , under her own steam, ( that's most likely unless he frogmarched her in there ) was standing facing the closed door with her shorts pulled up. And then was plugged with 4 black talon bullets.

that's it.

I agree. I don't think either defense or prosecution will be too interested in attempting to convince either way. There's far too much reasonable doubt when challenging an individuals toilet habits.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I don't think anyone has to prove that Reeva piddled or didn't. the bare fact is, she left the bed.. ( if she was ever in it, that's Oscars story) and at some stage , under her own steam, ( that's most likely unless he frogmarched her in there ) was standing facing the closed door with her shorts pulled up. And then was plugged with 4 black talon bullets.

that's it.

Hope the four shots are enough to convict him of at least murder but he has a very expensive and experienced defence team so the prosecution need to throw as much doubt as possible to his version of events .

 

[Trooper]

Agreed but it would be highly unusual for a lady not to use tissue particularly when spending the night with a boyfriend as valentines morning approaches.
I still think it would have very important to have proof to the toilet contents to help timescale and his version of events .

The empty bladder does give some indication . You can't have an empty bladder in the middle of the night without having been to the loo or having a medical problem . I am viewing the toilet scenario as important to disprove his version that they went to bed at 10o'clock. As I said earlier she would have had to have got up to go to the toilet without him hearing just before he went out for the fans which seems unlikely but maybe not impossible .

she ingested some sort of meal around 2 hours before she died..

its a hot summer night. she would be highly unlikely to have food stored in a hot bedroom where the aircon is broken.. so . she has to go downstairs to the kitchen, and to the fridge.. carefully unlocking the bedroom door on the way out, .. uses the toilet DOWNSTAIRS, and then comes back up, unlocks the bedroom door, closes it, locks it behind her..

this careful locking and unlocking of the bedroom door is feasible, because that's what Oscar does. He says he does that. That's his story. I'd imagine he'd insist everyone in his bedroom does the same should they wish to roam around the house gathering a snack. And I would think Reeva would follow his preference in his house .

the toilet she was murdered in isn't the only toilet in the house. in fact , the 2nd bedroom has an ensuite toilet as well.

 

[Viper]

There's a little more to it. The criminal charges were dropped and the civil settlement had to do with OP's defamation suit against the person who made the accusations and tried to have him prosecuted. If you read about the events, it was a sketchy case to begin with and I got the impression that it was a young girl trying to get money out of a celebrity over an incident that she caused.

I got the impression that an immature man was using his wealth and the civil court to harass his victim by filing a frivolous lawsuit against her for a ridiculous amount of money, knowing that as a college student it would place great hardship on her to have to pay the legal fees to defend herself.

 

[katydid23]

11. How is Pistorius trying to prove his innocence?
The Paralympian is trying to prove that the killing was due to negligence. He claims he had no intention of killing Steenkamp as he suspected an intruder had entered his home. According to the Criminal Law Act, South African courts have traditionally applied the following test to determine whether the accused had been negligent:
• Would a reasonable person, in the same circumstances as the accused, have foreseen the reasonable possibility of the occurrence of the consequence, or the existence of the circumstance in question, including its unlawfulness?
• If so, would a reasonable person have taken steps to guard against that possibility?
• If so, did the accused fail to take the steps which he should reasonably have taken to guard against it?

Read more: http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3733-faqs-on-the-oscar-pistorius-trial#ixzz2wdB2EFiA

I think this is going to be a big hurdle for OP. I think a 'reasonable' person would take the necessary steps to verify the whereabouts of their roommate before blindly shooting through a bathroom door. And he failed to take the necessary steps to guard against the tragedy.

 

[Duchy]

So....if Oscar gets off....anyone who wants to kill someone can invite them in to the house, wait for them to use the loo, then shoot them through the loo door...4 times just to make sure they die.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

she ingested some sort of meal around 2 hours before she died..

its a hot summer night. she would be highly unlikely to have food stored in a hot bedroom where the aircon is broken.. so . she has to go downstairs to the kitchen, and to the fridge.. carefully unlocking the bedroom door on the way out, .. uses the toilet DOWNSTAIRS, and then comes back up, unlocks the bedroom door, closes it, locks it behind her..

this careful locking and unlocking of the bedroom door is feasible, because that's what Oscar does. He says he does that. That's his story. I'd imagine he'd insist everyone in his bedroom does the same should they wish to roam around the house gathering a snack. And I would think Reeva would follow his preference in his house .

the toilet she was murdered in isn't the only toilet in the house. in fact , the 2nd bedroom has an ensuite toilet as well.

Again agreed this is also possible. But I do find it difficult to believe she could get out of the room without him hearing her unlock the door. Keys in a lock are noisy in the middle of the night . We lock ours and it always wakes my hubby up who is generally a sound sleeper .

We should have more light shed on things on Monday .

 

[Trooper]

I don't think there's been an appropriate moment yet. It is something that should be put to OP if he testifies, but otherwise it's hard to see how it could be brought in as part of the prosecution case as there is no other witness who could be called on the matter. Nel could also refer to it in his closing speech.

I am hoping that appropriate moment in regard to Reeva's bladder and her theoretical toilet habits, never arrives, Cherwell.


god help us if it turns to Oscars toilet habits as well.

* lightbulb* .. what about his bladder? surely in all the shock and horror and blood and gore and fright and terror and shooting and banging on the door and pelting back and forth collecting legs, opening blinds, bringing fans in.. shouting from the balcony, screaming like a woman etc. didn't he need to pee?

and if so. WHERE?? and WHEN??

I really don't require an indepth series on this... its all too much.. lease:

 

[Duchy]

I wonder if his housekeeper had access to his house to clean up, do the laundry.... and if after that incident she/he still works for him?

If she does still work for him I bet she goes to the loo before going to work:floorlaugh:

 

[steveml]

I got the impression that an immature man was using his wealth and the civil court to harass his victim by filing a frivolous lawsuit against her for a ridiculous amount of money, knowing that as a college student it would place great hardship on her to have to pay the legal fees to defend herself.

Has anybody ever seen a picture of the injury caused to this woman?

 

[Trooper]

Again agreed this is also possible. But I do find it difficult to believe she could get out of the room without him hearing her unlock the door. Keys in a lock are noisy in the middle of the night . We lock ours and it always wakes my hubby up who is generally a sound sleeper .

We should have more light shed on things on Monday .

who says he didn't hear her?? Oscar?? Its only Oscars story that he was asleep. Oscars story isn't a thing of concrete. its a story that is trying to get him off a murder charge. It has to be taken in its entirety with the deepest skepticism. Every single component of it.

 

[steveml]

So....if Oscar gets off....anyone who wants to kill someone can invite them in to the house, wait for them to use the loo, then shoot them through the loo door...4 times just to make sure they die.

I don't think Roux or Nel anticipate him getting off. Roux certainly won't have based his defense purely on the assumption that OP will be acquitted of all charges.

 

[Trooper]

If she does still work for him I bet she goes to the loo before going to work:floorlaugh:

:drumroll:

 

[Cherwell]

I am hoping that appropriate moment in regard to Reeva's bladder and her theoretical toilet habits, never arrives, Cherwell.

Fair enough, but the point is very simple:

IF he is telling the truth, she must have gone to the toilet.

We know that she was fully dressed and standing, therefore (in his scenario) it's highly unlikely IMO that she didn't flush the loo. She knew he was awake, so no reason not to.

So he should have heard the flush or the cistern.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I've put a link below for anyone who may be interested in gun crime stats for SA. Just throwing it out there, as this is certainly one of the plays that Roux will be using in defense of OP's actions, and to establish why it would not be unreasonable for OP to have such fear regarding his imagined intruder...

http://www.issafrica.org/iss-today/...-we-know-about-home-robberies-in-south-africa

It's quite an interesting read. The gun/robbery stats are about halfway down the page.

OK I do appreciate the problem in SA BUT his estate is the safest in Gauteng. I think it has had two minor thefts in the 3 years, both by domestics, unless my memory fails me. It has 9ft walls topped with electric wires, it has guards with dogs patrolling all night, he sleeps with his windows open. IMO opinion not indicative of any anxiety on OP's behalf.

 

[Viper]

In what parallel universe is it "too much of a possibility" that:

1. A man can shoot a woman dead in his house, then
2. The same man would exactly replicate the sounds of that gun attack on the woman 30 seconds later, AND
3. All the witnesses heard the replicated sounds of the attack and killing, not the actual attack.

Seriously, do you really think that's a reasonable alibi?

BIB No, I think it is an incredible fairy tale. After the shooting OP only spoke words of "I thought it was an intruder," all the rest of this was crafted by his team of lawyers and experts over the course of five days, including visit(s) to the crime scene and not told to the police or anyone until he tendered it to the court in his affidavit. I had read posts here where it is put forth that OP told this fairy tale to the police when they arrived, that is not true.

I can imagine that OP, sitting in jail, had no story really for his attorneys, perhaps only that he thought that someone had broken in and he shot them through his water closet door, and when pressed for details he was at a loss. It does look like the story was fabricated after the fact and is far fetched, I am confident that the three judges will see through it.

 

[Trooper]

the only person who could tell us if she peed , or didn't pee. is Reeva.


and she is dead.

so its one of those things no one will ever know. not even Oscar.


only 2 people know what went on upstairs and downstairs that night. one is in the dock, and one is dead.

and the one in the dock isn't privy to the workings of anyones bladder except his own. its a secret Reeva has taken to her grave. . It is a big assumption to make that just because she is in the toilet, she is there to pee.. there are quite a few alternatives to that. It is a reasonable assumption, but it isn't the only one that could be made, and be true.

I'm suspicious of it merely because that's what Oscar wants to be believed on. Lets face it. he has to have SOME story as to why she dies so horribly in there. He's gone for the one acceptable.. but not necessarily factual.

 

[Harmony 2]

I promised I would post this if I found the video of OP putting his ordinary prostheses on (actually only one is shown) and how quickly this is achieved. Go to 1.00 minute on the tape.

Pistorius' home - scene of a crime? - YouTube

With his running blades he does use strappings which look as though they are made from Velcro.

From that link, I garnered this screen shot of his stumps:

I recall his ex-girlfriend stating that he needed to use something to balance and now I see why.

 

[Trooper]

Our study found a reduction in female homicide which is consistent with
a decline in overall homicides in South Africa, but the decline was less
among intimate femicides. Intimate partner violence is now the leading
cause of death of women homicide victims with 56% of female homicides
being committed by an intimate partner. Despite the decline, South Africa’s
intimate femicide rate in 2009 is more than double the rate in the United
States (2.0/ 100,000) (Logan et al., 2011).

http://www.mrc.ac.za/policybriefs/everyeighthours.pdf

 

[Duchy]

is there any footage anywhere at all, of OP on his stumps standing, walking, running?:websleuther: