Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Viper]

It's good to have a perspective from someone who owns a firearm. What's your opinion regarding the list of firearms that OP had on order? To a non gun owner like myself this seems ridiculously excessive, but I'd be interested to hear your opinion at to whether this seems an overt need, or whether this would be considered fairly normal if OP was regularly at a shooting range? I understand from the trial that there are different allowances for sports etc., but I'm not sure whether OP could be classed as legitimately requiring these for a specific hobby.

Sorry for the double post but I was just thinking back to the day when I bought the PPK. As I said it was compact, I liked that because my wife has small hands, and it was polished stainless steel made with precision in Germany and time tested to be reliable.

But I had one reservation about buying it, it's capacity was only seven rounds, 6 in the clip and 1 in the chamber. So I questioned the dealer about whether that would be enough if my wife was using it to stop an attack? He looked at me and said. "If she can't hit him with seven bullets she might as well just throw the dam* gun at him!" That made me laugh, and of course he was right so I bought the gun.

But if you think about it, using common sense and reason, OP firing 4 rounds at a person, real or imaginary, was just crazy!

 

[steveml]

Since there is a lull in the trial, I'm de-lurking to ask a quick question: Is it true that Oscar claims that he shouted "Get out of my house!" ? If so, how could the intruder possibly do this since the toilet area window was too small? Why did he not say "Open the door and come out with your hands up"?

If after yelling, "Get out of my house," the "intruder" had started opening the door, would Oscar not have shot? After all, Oscar would not know if the intruder had a weapon. Why did he then go directly in front of the door and fire, unless he felt fairly sure the intruder was unarmed. If he believed the intruder was unarmed, he would not have been in fear for his life. If he believed the intruder was armed, he would not have shouted "Get out of my house," and then gone to stand directly in front of the door, unless he felt suicidal.

Maybe he actually yelled this at Reeva? And she refused?

That's a very good point. My take on intruder suggestion is that if you thought that an armed intruder was behind the door, you'd stand quite far back from the door as the closer you are, the less time you have to assess and aim. If prosecution could prove that he shot from very close to the door, it would seem more probable that he knew who was behind the door, and knew that they didn't pose a threat. I think the spent cartridges may have been intended to be an indicator, although it was mentioned in court that these could have been kicked or moved during the investigation.

 

[steveml]

Sorry for the double post but I was just thinking back to the day when I bought the PPK. As I said it was compact, I liked that because my wife has small hands, and it was polished stainless steel made with precision in Germany and time tested to be reliable.

But I had one reservation about buying it, it's capacity was only seven rounds, 6 in the clip and 1 in the chamber. So I questioned the dealer about whether that would be enough if my wife was using it to stop an attack? He looked at me and said. "If she can't hit him with seven bullets she might as well just throw the dam* gun at him!" That made me laugh, and of course he was right so I bought the gun.

But if you think about it, using common sense and reason, OP firing 4 rounds at a person, real or imaginary, was just crazy!

Thanks for that. I presume a double-tap can be done very quickly by a regular gun user, and even doing one double-tap seems unnecessary to me when firing blind at an unseen/unknown target.

 

[soozieqtips]

Since there is a lull in the trial, I'm de-lurking to ask a quick question: Is it true that Oscar claims that he shouted "Get out of my house!" ? If so, how could the intruder possibly do this since the toilet area window was too small? Why did he not say "Open the door and come out with your hands up"?

If after yelling, "Get out of my house," the "intruder" had started opening the door, would Oscar not have shot? After all, Oscar would not know if the intruder had a weapon. Why did he then go directly in front of the door and fire, unless he felt fairly sure the intruder was unarmed. If he believed the intruder was unarmed, he would not have been in fear for his life. If he believed the intruder was armed, he would not have shouted "Get out of my house," and then gone to stand directly in front of the door, unless he felt suicidal.

Maybe he actually yelled this at Reeva? And she refused?

Hello. Great post. If the 'intruder' had come out, OP would have shot anyway as he would have perceived himself to have been in more danger than when the intruder was behind the door. So the poor 'intruder' was doomed to die no matter what they did.

 

[Viper]

It's good to have a perspective from someone who owns a firearm. What's your opinion regarding the list of firearms that OP had on order? To a non gun owner like myself this seems ridiculously excessive, but I'd be interested to hear your opinion at to whether this seems an overt need, or whether this would be considered fairly normal if OP was regularly at a shooting range? I understand from the trial that there are different allowances for sports etc., but I'm not sure whether OP could be classed as legitimately requiring these for a specific hobby.

Thanks for that. I presume a double-tap can be done very quickly by a regular gun user, and even doing one double-tap seems unnecessary to me when firing blind at an unseen/unknown target.

That is not true. When you pull the trigger there is tremendous energy released that causes the gun to rise, move away from its position from before the shot is fired. The shooter must then re-aim at his target before firing another shot. If not the second shot will be far away from where he wants it to go. Double tap is a skill perfected by professional shooters, marksmen. OP liked to shoot, great, but I have not read anything about him being a proficient marksman that had developed that level of skill. What I have read is that he was an accurate shot, which is a single round fired with great focus and accuracy in aiming the firearm. But in this case he was so close to the target that it probably did not take much skill to re-aim at her with the last three shots he fired; being down range 50 feet would be a much greater challenge.

For OP to hit Reeva three times he was aiming each shot individually between rounds. That takes time, and it takes intent.

 

[steveml]

That is not true. When you pull the trigger there is tremendous energy released that causes the gun to rise, move away from its position from before the shot is fired. The shooter must then re-aim at his target before firing another shot. If not the second shot will be far away from where he wants it to go. Double tap is a skill perfected by professional shooters, marksmen. OP liked to shoot, great, but I have not read anything about him being a proficient marksman that had developed that level of skill. What I have read is that he was an accurate shot, which is a single round fired with great focus and accuracy in aiming the firearm. But in this case he was so close to the target that it probably did not take much skill to re-aim at her with the last three shots he fired; being down range 50 feet would be a much greater challenge.

For OP to hit Reeva three times he was aiming each shot individually between rounds. That takes time, and it takes intent.

That's provided good insight. Cheers for that.

 

[Trooper]

That is not true. When you pull the trigger there is tremendous energy released that causes the gun to rise, move away from its position from before the shot is fired. The shooter must then re-aim at his target before firing another shot. If not the second shot will be far away from where he wants it to go. Double tap is a skill perfected by professional shooters, marksmen. OP liked to shoot, great, but I have not read anything about him being a proficient marksman that had developed that level of skill. What I have read is that he was an accurate shot, which is a single round fired with great focus and accuracy in aiming the firearm. But in this case he was so close to the target that it probably did not take much skill to re-aim at her with the last three shots he fired; being down range 50 feet would be a much greater challenge.

For OP to hit Reeva three times he was aiming each shot individually between rounds. That takes time, and it takes intent.

he was shifting the aim to follow the sound of her scream and her fall.


I am up late, watching the ICC world championship cricket . the short form of the game.. listening to the bat hitting the ball live.. the soft but powerful thunk as the ball hits the bat at 140kpm, and the batsman meets that ball with as much force as a human can muster..

not a prayer on this earth can make Judge Masipa believe people can be confused re bat and gun.

 

[Dmacky]

Did you all know that OP's brother Carl was on trial last year for culpable murder of a woman's death involving a car accident? She was on a motorcycle.
I'm not comparing the two, but what are the odds? Two brothers, two dead women

http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/osca...rius-brother-carl-facing-traffic-death-charge

PS just found another article saying Carl was acquitted of culpable homicide.

 

[Trooper]

Did you all know that OP's brother Carl was on trial last year for culpable murder of a woman's death involving a car accident? She was on a motorcycle.
I'm not comparing the two, but what are the odds? Two brothers, two dead women

http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/osca...rius-brother-carl-facing-traffic-death-charge

PS just found another article saying Carl was acquitted of culpable homicide.

I'll raise you the two brothers and throw in Henke Pistorius.. the Dad.

Pistorius and his father seem to share a fascination with guns. According to a recent Beeld report, Henke also kept several guns and once, infamously, shot himself in the testicles while cleaning one of them.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-22-00-pistorius-south-africa-bears-and-breeds-these-men

 

[Insp.Dots]

It is only Oscars story that she went to the toilet to empty her bladder.. who knows why she went there?? considering she died there, standing up, with her shorts pulled up , facing the door, and not the toilet, there is no need to take Oscar's reconstruction on board.

I suspect the defensive may say Reeva went to the toilet and was disturbed upon hearing Oscar shouting about an intruder. This would explain her pulling up her shorts and not wiping or flushing...she'd hardly do that with an intruder in their midst. I do agree that OP is going to have to answer and explain things but I will wait until ALL the evidence is heard before judging. I don't think it is in the interests of justice to say at this point his version is complete fabrication.
I am interested in what the direct neighbours have to say, also If the phones will show any messages regarding arguments or fears from Reeva as this will likely have a devastating affect on the DT.
IMO OP is an arrogant and spoilt individual who has been surrounded by people that pick up the pieces for his behaviour. He was also involved with people who were only friends due to his money and fame. None of those things make him a murderer. EVIDENCE will do that and how the Judge perceives it all. I genuinely hope justice is achieved and ANY doubt will be erased.

 

[Dmacky]

I'll raise you the two brothers and throw in Henke Pistorius.. the Dad.

Pistorius and his father seem to share a fascination with guns. According to a recent Beeld report, Henke also kept several guns and once, infamously, shot himself in the testicles while cleaning one of them.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-02-22-00-pistorius-south-africa-bears-and-breeds-these-men

BBM

Oh Trooper I fold :smile:

 

[nastasya]

When did OP admit that he heard the woman sleeping beside him (Reeva) get up to pee and he followed her into the bathroom and shot her?
This is just not true. And why have so many posters agreed with it?

Specifically, OP didn't claim he heard RS get out of bed. Just the result of her getting out of bed to go to the bathroom.

OP's entire alibi:

"I got up and went on outside on my deck.
When I was on the deck Reeva got up to go pee.
I grabbed my gun and went into the bathrrom.
She was using the toilet.
But since I didn't know it was her I shot her.
Three times. One bullet missed."

It's probably the worst alibi in the history of crime.

His explanations for the witnesses may also be the worst in the history of crime:

"None of them heard me killing Reeva. That's impossible.
What they heard was me after I killed Reeva.
I made the exact sounds of a terrified woman being attacked and shot 4 times with a gun.
Strange coincidence, right?
And Baba? I was telling him everything was fine with me.
I didn't tell him I just shot Reeva and she was still alive even though I just screamed for help because...um.... um....."

His story is very simple. And stupid.
OPG

 

[nastasya]

I don't think it is in the interests of justice to say at this point his version is complete fabrication.

I think it's in the interest of justice, Reeva's justice, to recognize OP's story for what it is - a total and complete fabrication made up 5 days after he killed her in an attempt to explain away the evidence and the witnesses.

 

[Trooper]

That is not true. When you pull the trigger there is tremendous energy released that causes the gun to rise, move away from its position from before the shot is fired. The shooter must then re-aim at his target before firing another shot. If not the second shot will be far away from where he wants it to go. Double tap is a skill perfected by professional shooters, marksmen. OP liked to shoot, great, but I have not read anything about him being a proficient marksman that had developed that level of skill. What I have read is that he was an accurate shot, which is a single round fired with great focus and accuracy in aiming the firearm. But in this case he was so close to the target that it probably did not take much skill to re-aim at her with the last three shots he fired; being down range 50 feet would be a much greater challenge.

For OP to hit Reeva three times he was aiming each shot individually between rounds. That takes time, and it takes intent.

I was thinking of your remarks there, the parts bolded..

that's a 75% success rate , a reasonably high rate of success at a target you cant see.. I realize the target is trapped in a small enclosure,, but even so.. he got the important lethal parts. . I doubt if I could do that. with a 75% success rate.. although I only shoot with a trusty .22.. that's no reason why Oscar couldn't do it.. just because I couldn't, but even so. to hit the target with a 75% strike rate is a man taking aim with intent .. it wasn't wild firing...

I remember the holes in the door were in a concentrated circle. I just didn't think to do the pro rata count . 4 shots 3 shots each of which were lethal... the hip shot didn't kill her instantly but she was crippled and broken..

 

[MissJ]

I own guns. Also have another person living with me. Never would I shoot blindly in the house without knowing where that person was even if I suspected a burglar. No reasonable person would. JMO

 

[Trooper]

success at hitting a target, I mean, of course..

I don't mean success at murdering Reeva Steenkamp.

which he was successful at, but ....

 

[Viper]

I was thinking of your remarks there, the parts bolded..

that's a 75% success rate , a reasonably high rate of success at a target you cant see.. I realize the target is trapped in a small enclosure,, but even so.. he got the important lethal parts. . I doubt if I could do that. with a 75% success rate.. although I only shoot with a trusty .22.. that's no reason why Oscar couldn't do it.. just because I couldn't, but even so. to hit the target with a 75% strike rate is a man taking aim with intent .. it wasn't wild firing...

I remember the holes in the door were in a concentrated circle. I just didn't think to do the pro rata count . 4 shots 3 shots each of which were lethal... the hip shot didn't kill her instantly but she was crippled and broken..

Not quibbling, but it is 75% if you believe he was firing wildly at any old spot on the door. However each shot represents an attempt to hit his target, in this case Reeva. So in my view he was 100% accurate three times, and failed once.

I too look at the pattern on the bullet holes, in my view they move right to left meaning his aim was following Reeva's movement behind the door. Take out hole "B" as that was the first one fired from a further position. But I don't remember what the expert determined regarding the order of the shot fired... Please remind me.

 

[Trooper]

Not quibbling, but it is 75% if you believe he was firing wildly at any old spot on the door. However each shot represents an attempt to hit his target, in this case Reeva. So in my view he was 100% accurate three times, and failed once.

I too look at the pattern on the bullet holes, in my view they move right to left meaning his aim was following Reeva's movement behind the door. Take out hole "B" as that was the first one fired from a further position.

pure genius, Viper.. logarithms....


he was 100% accurate.. what I didn't take into account, that though the target was enclosed , that target was a moving one.. falling down, falling forward, and flinging an arm up.


100%..


* back to school for me!!

 

[Trooper]

that certainly lowers the odds that he was in a panicked state, in deep terror, and didn't know what was behind that door.

I wont be silly enough to put a percentage on those odds ...

 

[Trooper]

Not quibbling, but it is 75% if you believe he was firing wildly at any old spot on the door. However each shot represents an attempt to hit his target, in this case Reeva. So in my view he was 100% accurate three times, and failed once.

I too look at the pattern on the bullet holes, in my view they move right to left meaning his aim was following Reeva's movement behind the door. Take out hole "B" as that was the first one fired from a further position. But I don't remember what the expert determined regarding the order of the shot fired... Please remind me.

the gorgeous Captain Mungeena qualified the order of shots fires as this.

1st shot. ( she is standing up facing the gun with a door between her and the weapon.. this shatters and completely breaks her hip bone, she slumps down and back onto the magazine rack . )

2nd shot. (as she slumps down her head falls forward, and this 2nd shot is the head shot.. )

3rd shot.. and 4th shot. one of these shots misses her, but richochets around hitting the tiles, fragmenting and bruising her chest and back , some fragment falls to the floor. She is now expelled forward by the head shot and comes to stasis with her head on the toilet basin.

the 4th or 3rd shot hits her arm , elbow.. she has flung her arm up and back.

the 3rd and 4th shot can be reversible in order of sequence, but not the 1st and 2nd. they are as it is .