Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[sorrell skye]

Request: Everyone check the clocks in your house and tell me what time it is. TIA!

ETA: I just checked my own clocks.

Bedroom clock 1. 6:57

Bedroom clock 2. 6:54

Kitchen clock: 6:55

Cell phone clock: 6:55

My point: It's highly unlikely that all the earwitnesses' clocks were in sync with the other earwitnesses on the night OP killed Reeva.

 

[Val1]

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

bbm - I don't know this for a fact, have only heard this coming from OP's version of events which are certainly questionable, given what he would be facing should he be found guilty.

 

[lisasalinger]

IIRC that is the argument that has been made time and again here, but it is not at all reasonable because all he heard was a noise and all he saw (identified) was a door. In addition he fired his gun, loaded with the most lethal bullets he could find, four times at the supposed intruder indication an intention to kill. So it is not convincing at all, and not lawful.

OP reminds me of Joran Van Der Sloot. Both of them are good looking young men, both privileged and wealthy, both charming, both believe(ed) that they were above the law and acted out unlawfully, and both are murderers of young women. It was tragic that Natalie's body was never found, and equally tragic that Joran was left free to kill again. I have no doubt that OP is a murderer and I am equally convinced that he will be in prison for a very long time. There will no "celebrity" accommodations for him; fact is his celebrity flew out the window the night that he killed Reeva, and his money went with it!

BBM

I respectfully have to disagree whole heartedly about JVDS. The dude looks (and acts) like Frankenstein! I don't think I would add charming to his resume either.

 

[Rumpole]

I'm a bit concerned about the ear-witness testimony, whereby shots/bangs and terrible screams heard. When we're discussing what a normal person would do, I would have to go and find out what was happening. Yet, the couple just went back to sleep and went to work the next day. If it was that bad, is it reasonable that you would just go back to sleep?

We need to bear in mind that it can't be entirely convincing to argue that OP shouldn't be overly concerned about security because it's a safe contained patrolled estate, and then to argue that people wouldn't have gone from their house to check it out because it's a dangerous environment.

Yes not worth losing sleep over... literally... at the time, but "evolved" into "blood curdling" and woman "in fear for her life"

Separate issue (Not related to quoted post):
A cricket bat swung at a door will ALWAYS make loud bangs.
There were certainly cricket bat bangs produced that night. It is NOT a point I am going to argue anymore. It is getting silly.
Whether anybody heard the cricket bat bangs is a separate issue, but given we KNOW of two sources of loud bangs, and we KNOW a creditable witness heard two sets of bangs, it is rational to assume that the witness heard one set of bangs that were gunshots, and another set of bangs that were cricket bat on door. If people deny that then by definition they are "in denial".

 

[Val1]

Their contention is that the shots at 3:17 were the gunshots. They've offered no explanation for the first set of sounds Stipp heard. I do believe they agree the cricket bat came after the gunshots though because their own experts say so.

The only agreement about the bat that I heard was that it was used to pry the door apart....and yes, that came after the gunshots. As for the first two whacks, I believe those are still in contention.

 

[sorrell skye]

The State's case is that the gunshots came first, the cricket bat bashing in the door came second.

 

[lisasalinger]

maybe that's why he shot her. she didn't flush the toilet.
women have been shot to hell for less.

BBM

Wasn't that the latest claim in the Amanda Knox case? No joke... there was an unflushed toilet in the house and they thought that may have thrown Amanda in to a rage against her roommate. It seems that unsanitary bathroom practices are lethal these days :floorlaugh:

 

[sorrell skye]

Now now... let's not be painting Oscar as a bad guy. According to Roux, he actually really only did 2 double taps of the gun. So just 2 shots, not 4.

:facepalm:

Aha! So could that be why Roux was trying to get Mangena to agree with him about the double-tap (with which Mangena adamantly disagreed)?

Is Roux trying to reduce the number of gunshots witnesses could have heard to only 2 - in order to match the number of cricket bat marks on the door?

IIRC, Stipp said he heard 2-3 bangs at one point.

All I know is that Roux is monkeying around with the sounds and intentionally trying to cause confusion.

 

[Gavel Rash]

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

Other than the prosecution expert who has given evidential credit to the sounds at 3.17am of Bang...bang, bang, bang coinciding with the wounds placement lining up with his ballistics. Pretty damning.

 

[Val1]

The State's case is that the gunshots came first, the cricket bat bashing in the door came second.

I respectfully disagree, I'm pretty sure that's the defense case otherwise why even argue the screaming? What I understood from the testimony drawn out by Nell was that the bat had only created two dents in the door, thus two "bangs" or whatever you want to call them and those could have happened anytime either before or after the four gunshots killed RS, just the only testimony so far points more to having happened first, then gunshots, then prying open the door.

 

[Gavel Rash]

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

.

Other than the prosecutions expert ballistics guy who has lined up the sounds...bang...bang, bang, bang with wounds incurred. Pretty damning I think.

 

[Rumpole]

Yes. I have seen someone trying to argue that Menelaou heard the gunshots and everyone else was wrong and heard the cricket bat. I wonder whether this is what the defence will try to argue.

A number of things make me wary of this interpretation:

• At least one of the witnesses who heard what they thought was gunfire later (around 3:17) had military experience and was very credible (Dr Stipp)
• The people who heard what they thought were shots around 3:17 all heard at least three and in some cases four shots together with a woman's screams. The expert witness in court suggested that the door was only hit twice with the bat, so this would not tally.
• This individual is a very good friend of OP and i would be somewhat cautious about his testimony, particularly if the DT start to use it to try and discredit what the other ear witnesses testified.

Stipp heard the earlier same set of noises as Christo Menelaou as well.... so the witness with "military experience" confirms the first set of bangs as gunshots. He said both sets sounded the same..... which could merely be confirmation that cricket bat bangs indeed did sound like gunshots, even to an experienced ear, so certainly might well to a less experienced ear (burger(s) ). Which adds weight to assumptions that the Burger(s) heard bat noises (but thought they were gunshots)
The evidence does all tie together it you look at it all as a gestalt.

 

[Rumpole]

You guys are twisting yourselves in all kinds of knots in order to try to get around the evidence that has been presented re: gunshot sounds and cricket bat sounds and their sequence

Sharpen up your Occam's Razor... I see much that needs to be sliced here!! :floorlaugh:

 

[Viper]

Yes not worth losing sleep over... literally... at the time, but "evolved" into "blood curdling" and woman in rear for her life"

Separate issue (Not related to quoted post):
A cricket bat swung at a door will ALWAYS make loud bangs.
There were certainly cricket bat bangs produced that night. It is NOT a point I am going to argue anymore. It is getting silly.
Whether anybody heard the cricket bat bangs is a separate issue, but given we KNOW of two sources of loud bangs, and we KNOW a creditable witness heard two sets of bangs, it is rational to assume that the witness heard one set of bangs that were gunshots, and another set of bangs that were cricket bat on door. If people deny that then by definition they are "in denial".

I'm in denial about a lot of things :smile:, but OP did murder Reeva, no denying that fact. The rest is just semantics. I "put that to you" with a wry smile; hope you had a great day!

 

[Rumpole]

I'm in denial about a lot of things :smile:, but OP did murder Reeva, no denying that fact. The rest is just semantics. I "put that to you" with a wry smile; hope you had a great day!

Day is going ok, thanks.


I put it to you......."Murder" is a legal and descriptive term. Yet to be proven, M'Lady

OP killed Reeva, of that there is no doubt.

 

[Viper]

Yes not worth losing sleep over... literally... at the time, but "evolved" into "blood curdling" and woman "in fear for her life"

Separate issue (Not related to quoted post):
A cricket bat swung at a door will ALWAYS make loud bangs.
There were certainly cricket bat bangs produced that night. It is NOT a point I am going to argue anymore. It is getting silly.
Whether anybody heard the cricket bat bangs is a separate issue, but given we KNOW of two sources of loud bangs, and we KNOW a creditable witness heard two sets of bangs, it is rational to assume that the witness heard one set of bangs that were gunshots, and another set of bangs that were cricket bat on door. If people deny that then by definition they are "in denial".

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

You guys are twisting yourselves in all kinds of knots in order to try to get around the evidence that has been presented re: gunshot sounds and cricket bat sounds and their sequence

BIB. You are too! :smile:

Thankfully we will all be put out of our misery and twisting into knits very soon! I mean that!

 

[sorrell skye]

I respectfully disagree, I'm pretty sure that's the defense case otherwise why even argue the screaming? What I understood from the testimony drawn out by Nell was that the bat had only created two dents in the door, thus two "bangs" or whatever you want to call them and those could have happened anytime either before or after the four gunshots killed RS, just the only testimony so far points more to having happened first, then gunshots, then prying open the door.

Roux is arguing that the sounds the Burgers heard (from 177 meters away) were not gunshots, but were the cricket bat, because he wants to convince the Judge that the screaming just before & during the sounds the Burgers heard was not Reeva screaming in terror for her life, but was Oscar screaming like a woman because he realized he may have just shot Reeva.

I don't recall Nel ever stating that the State believes the cricket bat striking the door came before the gunshots.

I understand where you're coming from regarding the marks on the toilet door, though. I think Roux has done a splendid job of causing confusion, but I don't believe it's the State's case that the bashing of the toilet door with the cricket bat came before the gunshots.

 

[lisasalinger]

Roux backed right off the double tap.. he floated it, but it didn't take hold with the Captain.. he moved away from it, and went into the claim that he had reports that said it could be done, that is, the double tap might line up with the head shot being first ( which means Reeva didn't scream,,, Roux has to get the scream eradicated ) ..

The Captain merely invited him to bring those reports to his office and he would find some time to peruse them.

it all ended badly for Roux. he suddenly wanted the captain off the stand , to make dust, and begone.

I watched Oscars face during this segment, . he was sitting behind Roux and one could see him when Roux was talking.. Oscar was looking at Mungheena with the deepest envy.. a man who had learned a deep respect for guns. having a 'deep love' for guns was useless without that. It was all written across Oscars face.

BBM

I don't know how he can walk away from that assertion now though. Roux pretty clearly stated that Oscar did a double tap twice. So 2 shots, not 4. Could Roux really do his presentation next week and be like no, I was just kidding... he really shot 4 times. I don't think he can do that, he would look like a clown. He kind of painted himself in to a corner.

Mangena was awesome. He shot him down (no pun intended) quickly! He pointed out to Roux that if it were 2 double taps right after each other than all 4 wounds would have been in the same vicinity. There would be no way to explain the wounds in 4 different locations of the body (hip, arm, hand and head)

 

[minor4th]

Other than the prosecution expert who has given evidential credit to the sounds at 3.17am of Bang...bang, bang, bang coinciding with the wounds placement lining up with his ballistics. Pretty damning.

Not damning for reasons I have explained over and over and over about



1) One set of loud bangs heard by three people at 3:08;

2) loud screaming heard by all witnesses (after first loud bangs)

3) another set of loud bangs at 3:17 heard by additional witnesses as well as those who heard the first bangs;

4) Ms. Burger's changed testimony, (originally said she heard "2 to 3" shots, not 4)

5) state confirmation that gunshots were before cricket bat.

6) No allegation or evidence that there were any loud bangs heard by any witness besides gunshots and cricket bat hitting door.

To come up with any theory other than the gunshots were at 3:08 and the cricket bat hitting the door was at 3:17 -- you have to add in additional speculation about additional bangs that sounded like gunshots and also believe that no one heard the cricket bat hitting the door.

I suggest that is twisting oneself in knots to try to avoid the actual evidence that has been presented.

 

[Trooper]

has mr Menalou taken an oath on the stand and testified to this peculiar time he heard something?? no

is this rumour re Mr Menelou taken from one report in a news paper?? yes.

are reporters anywhere in the world able to tie their own shoelaces and tell the time in synchronization? no. has every newspaper article you've read been correct? every time? were hardly ANY of the early early articles subsequently seen to be accurate? no , no, and no.

until, and unless Mr Menalou is called by either the defence , or the prosecutor, and then takes an oath and gives his testimony for the court record, It is rumour, theory and not in any court on this planet catalogued as 'evidence' .

There is possibly a very good reason the prosecution hasn't called Mr Menalou as their leading witness. because he is tainted by a careless article that gets it wrong. it was very early days, in fact, during the morning of the 14th Feb. when Mr Menalou supposedly answered these questions from a very excited reporter. No one has heard from Menalou since.

the Defence wont call him to the stand , either. for the same reason. Even Roux isn't proposing that anyone fired or banged a bat at 3.08.

that leaves Oscar a whooole 13 minutes to ring Netcare!.. he had time to shave, shower, gel his hair, make the bed, and even unload the gun , turn the safety switch on and uncock it, and have a cup of coffee. but does he?? He would have had time to ring Mr Renns and firm up that big gun order, just in case. He would have had time to order a pizza, try a suit on, put his watches in the safe, make a few more runs at the balcony, screaming in a womans voice for the pizza delivery.. he had time to feed the dogs.

He would also have to have known exactly when Baba would arrive at his front door. ( he certainly wasn't expecting Baba to arrive, nor Stipp ) So he could make his dramatic staircase descent , with Reeva in his arms, blood spattering and glopping all over the bannister , dripping onto the downstairs carpet, being flung over the downstairs couch..just in time for Clarice and Johan Standar.

and it also means that Reeva managed to live for a whoooole more 13 minutes as well, give or take a few. With a black talon bullet thru her brain??

I dunno. he's a miracle guy on so many levels already without this extra 'evidence' of his superhuman capabilities, I s'pose , as Roux would say, couldn't I , at least, consider this possibility??


fat chance of that.