Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[lisasalinger]

Roux backed right off the double tap.. he floated it, but it didn't take hold with the Captain.. he moved away from it, and went into the claim that he had reports that said it could be done, that is, the double tap might line up with the head shot being first ( which means Reeva didn't scream,,, Roux has to get the scream eradicated ) ..

The Captain merely invited him to bring those reports to his office and he would find some time to peruse them.

it all ended badly for Roux. he suddenly wanted the captain off the stand , to make dust, and begone.

I watched Oscars face during this segment, . he was sitting behind Roux and one could see him when Roux was talking.. Oscar was looking at Mungheena with the deepest envy.. a man who had learned a deep respect for guns. having a 'deep love' for guns was useless without that. It was all written across Oscars face.

One other thing on the whole Roux / Mangena exchange... they had a bit of a go around on the magazine rack and what type of injury it caused (or didn't cause) to Reeva.

Roux was frustrated with Mangena on this point too. Mangena stated that he did not "test" the magazine rack to see if it was the cause of a particular injury on Reeva. Roux then suggested he do that testing and come back, and he paused and then said no he wasn't going to do that testing...

Well the look on the blonde lady lawyers face was priceless. There's something about her I don't like at all. I've caught her making faces quite a few times and she seems like a b##ch. Just my petty opinion, of course

 

[Viper]

Day is going ok, thanks.


I put it to you......."Murder" is a legal and descriptive term. Yet to be proven, M'Lady

OP killed Reeva, of that there is no doubt.

LOL. So if you just kill your girlfriend that is somehow so much better than murdering her? I would imagine that in an automobile accident comparison, but shooting her three times ??? Forgive me if I don't buy it.

 

[minor4th]

Do we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door? I thought that was just the defence case - has the prosecution conceded this?

I suppose my other question would be whether it is universally agreed that the ear witnesses MUST have heard the bat in favour of the gun shots as that seems rather unlikely.

I would think it far more likely that the witnesses heard gun shots and that the sound of the bat did not carry far enough for them to hear it if it ended up being a case of them only hearing one or the other.

The State's forensic witnesses did confirm that the evidence shows that the gunshots had to be before the cricket bat hitting the door.

Some witnesses heard gunshots and cricket bat hitting the door. Some only heard the second loud bangs which must have been the cricket bat hitting the door

 

[minor4th]

Now now... let's not be painting Oscar as a bad guy. According to Roux, he actually really only did 2 double taps of the gun. So just 2 shots, not 4.

:facepalm:

2 double taps = 4 shots

 

[Trooper]

Realistically, Roux and Oscar have a lot of problems with the witness testimony so far. bringing the elusive and mysterious Mr Menalou, who may, or may not exist, who may, or may not live close to Oscar, who may, or may not have heard anything , who may, or may not have been as drunk as a skunk on that morning a reporter shoved a microphone in his face , who may , or may not be a patient at a mental health facility, , who may, infact, be a figment of a reporters imagination for the purposes of a deadline copy.


Until the rather misty Mr Menalou actually gets up on the stand. why not wait to hear what he says under oath? I mean. its a big stretch to think that Judge Mapisa is going to throw the whole case out on a mysterious being who never appeared in front of her bench and testified, now is it??

and naturally. its highly possible that Judge Mapisa never reads the newspaper articles about the case!!..

 

[minor4th]

Request: Everyone check the clocks in your house and tell me what time it is. TIA!

ETA: I just checked my own clocks.

Bedroom clock 1. 6:57

Bedroom clock 2. 6:54

Kitchen clock: 6:55

Cell phone clock: 6:55

My point: It's highly unlikely that all the earwitnesses' clocks were in sync with the other earwitnesses on the night OP killed Reeva.

Your clocks are all within 3 minutes of each other. We're talking about a 10 minute gap between the first bangs and the second bangs. I kind of doubt that all the witnesses who heard the bangs at 3:17 had clocks that were 10 minutes fast

 

[minor4th]

bbm - I don't know this for a fact, have only heard this coming from OP's version of events which are certainly questionable, given what he would be facing should he be found guilty.

No, we have heard this from two of the State's own witnesses - the only ones who have testified about the sequence of gunshots/cricket bat.

 

[Trooper]

One other thing on the whole Roux / Mangena exchange... they had a bit of a go around on the magazine rack and what type of injury it caused (or didn't cause) to Reeva.

Roux was frustrated with Mangena on this point too. Mangena stated that he did not "test" the magazine rack to see if it was the cause of a particular injury on Reeva. Roux then suggested he do that testing and come back, and he paused and then said no he wasn't going to do that testing...

Well the look on the blonde lady lawyers face was priceless. There's something about her I don't like at all. I've caught her making faces quite a few times and she seems like a b##ch. Just my petty opinion, of course

It would be a weird states ballistic expert who did the Defences testing for them, wouldn't it??


I did truly expect more from Roux. he isn't a well known sharpshooter ( unfortunate phrase ) defending a murder case.. but even so, I did expect more, and as the days go on, I get cranky with myself for expecting more. I mean solid stuff, not theoretical stuff, not wispy thin stuff, but certainly some thing graspable, and concrete. hasn't happened.

Might next week.

 

[minor4th]

Roux is arguing that the sounds the Burgers heard (from 177 meters away) were not gunshots, but were the cricket bat, because he wants to convince the Judge that the screaming just before & during the sounds the Burgers heard was not Reeva screaming in terror for her life, but was Oscar screaming like a woman because he realized he may have just shot Reeva.

I don't recall Nel ever stating that the State believes the cricket bat striking the door came before the gunshots.

I understand where you're coming from regarding the marks on the toilet door, though. I think Roux has done a splendid job of causing confusion, but I don't believe it's the State's case that the bashing of the toilet door with the cricket bat came before the gunshots.

Nel's own witnesses testified that the gunshots had to have come before the cricket bat hitting the door. Maybe Nel wasn't expecting that or maybe he hopes the judge will just ignore that point and instead believe a witness who changed her testimony to benefit the State?

 

[sorrell skye]

The State's forensic witnesses did confirm that the evidence shows that the gunshots had to be before the cricket bat hitting the door.

Some witnesses heard gunshots and cricket bat hitting the door. Some only heard the second loud bangs which must have been the cricket bat hitting the door

BBM

I agree about the State's forensic witness confirming the cricket bat came after the gunshots.

I disagree that the sounds the Burgers heard must have been the 2nd set of bangs. That is what Roux would have everyone believe, because it eliminates from the equation Reeva's screaming after she was shot in the hip.

Unless all the earwitnesses' clocks were in perfect sync with one another, I wouldn't expect them all to be hearing the gunshots at the exact same time.

It strains credulity, IMO, that the Burgers could have been awakened by what they identified as a woman screaming in mortal terror, a man yelling "help help help" in a rather unemotional tone, but were somehow not awakened (as Roux would have the Judge believe) by the sounds of 4 loud gunshots prior to those sounds.

I think the Burgers heard Reeva screaming, then the gunshots, but not the cricket bat sounds, as they have both stated.

 

[minor4th]

BBM

I agree about the State's forensic witness confirming the cricket bat came after the gunshots.

I disagree that the sounds the Burgers heard must have been the 2nd set of bangs. That is what Roux would have everyone believe, because it eliminates from the equation Reeva's screaming after she was shot in the hip.

Unless all the earwitnesses' clocks were in perfect sync with one another, I wouldn't expect them all to be hearing the gunshots at the exact same time.

It strains credulity, IMO, that the Burgers could have been awakened by what they identified as a woman screaming in mortal terror, a man yelling "help help help" in a rather unemotional tone, but were somehow not awakened (as Roux would have the Judge believe) by the sounds of 4 loud gunshots prior to those sounds.

I think the Burgers heard Reeva screaming, then the gunshots, but not the cricket bat sounds, as they have both stated.

Then what did Mr and Mrs Stipp and Christo M. hear at 3:08?

 

[lisasalinger]

I have watched and listened to the iPad session in court and I cannot hear exactly what was said about iPad 2 but I may have misunderstood as to whether both sets of information were of the same date but both sets of web access bookmarks were the same. Sorry if I have confused anyone. I find it very difficult to hear some of the feed. Roux didn't cross examine Col. Sales, other to ask whether him knew who or how many people had accessed the websites. Col. Sales says he doesn't know.

Right at the end of the session I heard Roux say to Olwage "You cannot stop him doing that". That came right after Nel had asked asked for time off to speak to witnesses he was going to call next week and as the court rose. I have assumed he was telling Olwage that they could not stop Nel asking for the extra time (earlier Nel had told the court he had discussed this with Roux and he was OK with it). Did anyone read anything else into the whisper?

Yes!! He said it twice. The look on Oscar's face during the iPad stuff was very interesting. He was looking down at first, then looked up and was in a daze for the rest of it.

Nel repeatedly asked Mr. Sales to confirm that even though he was reviewing the browsing history and bookmarks from the iPad3 that everything from that device was downloaded. And he specifically made a point to say that all information was given to the defense, along with the device itself. The same is true for the iPad 2. And he left it at that.

Roux immediately needed 5 minutes to think.

Something is up with the iPads. Can't wait to find out what!

 

[Trooper]

Maybe the mysterious Mr Menalou was ratting around in his home that night, at 3am practicing for the local Boy Scouts concert, in which he performs all the sound effects for the production of 'The Mousehole" ..

he , with the aid of electronics, makes all the sounds . window opening, screaming, arguing, ( male and female) gunshots, cricket bats, balcony hollering, police sirens, ambulance sirens, the whole shindig..

everyone is mistaken.

this is why he is in hiding. plain as day to me. Maybe Reeva isn't even dead.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Can someone enlighten me as to why a toilet would have a key only lock on the INSIDE? I could understand a key outside to unlock but usually a toilet door has just a facility to turn to lock as if you are going to toilet you don't carry a key...do you?

 

[MeeBee]

Can someone enlighten me as to why a toilet would have a key only lock on the INSIDE? I could understand a key outside to unlock but usually a toilet door has just a facility to turn to lock as if you are going to toilet you don't carry a key...do you?

They probably keep the key in the door instead of carrying it around.

 

[sorrell skye]

Your clocks are all within 3 minutes of each other. We're talking about a 10 minute gap between the first bangs and the second bangs. I kind of doubt that all the witnesses who heard the bangs at 3:17 had clocks that were 10 minutes fast

My point being: I don't expect any of the earwitnesses' times for hearing the screaming and the gunshots to match up exactly, as clock times will vary, not only within a household, but from household to household.

One thing that doesn't vary between the earwitnesses is they all heard a woman screaming in terror prior to what they all identified as gunshots.

Of course Roux has no other choice than to claim that OP screams like a woman. I, for one, don't buy it. IMO, it's just as ludicrous as OP claiming that he fired 4 deadly rounds through his toilet door because he believed his life was in danger from an unseen intruder in his toilet, of all places.

I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures when one is faced with the possibility of 25 years in prison. But I'm not the least convinced of OP's claims or of his Defense counsel's claims at this point.

I look forward to the Defense CIC.

 

[Trooper]

I cant find Mr Menalou on the list of witnesses testifying so far.


did I miss a whole morning, or sumfink?

 

[Gavel Rash]

They probably keep the key in the door instead of carrying it around.

With an ugly green tag indicative of it being labelled to be a spare? Seems odd to me. Was there not also a shot taken of items in bottom of sunglasses case showing bunches of keys with tags on them? Just glanced over in trial. But presented just the same by Nel as if it was pertinent. Like a cache of spares?

Did Reeva really lock it with a key or did she just lick it and Oscar had to go back to room to get it?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Lol! Lock* it. Not lick it.

 

[minor4th]

My point being: I don't expect any of the earwitnesses' times for hearing the screaming and the gunshots to match up exactly, as clock times will vary, not only within a household, but from household to household.

One thing that doesn't vary between the earwitnesses is they all heard a woman screaming in terror prior to what they all identified as gunshots.

Of course Roux has no other choice than to claim that OP screams like a woman. I, for one, don't buy it. IMO, it's just as ludicrous as OP claiming that he fired 4 deadly rounds through his toilet door because he believed his life was in danger from an unseen intruder in his toilet, of all places.

I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures when one is faced with the possibility of 25 years in prison. But I'm not the least convinced of OP's claims or of his Defense counsel's claims at this point.

I look forward to the Defense CIC.

But the screams and the times of the sounds heard by the witnesses do match up exactly:

--Gunshots at 3:08 heard by the Stipps and Cristo M. (who will likely be called by defense?)

-- Loud screaming heard by all witnesses, including the Stipps

-- Loud bangs heard at 3:17 by all witnesses. Had to have been cricket bat sounds if the only two sounds were cricket bat and gunshots and the gunshots were before the cricket bat

-- Silence followed by Oscar crying or screaming loudly