Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Trooper]

Please note that the 3:08 a.m. timeframe is hearsay and has NOT been entered as evidence, nor has ANY witness testified, thus far, to hearing anything specifically at 3:08 a.m.


I'm glad I looked up the timelines so that the knot could be untangled Phew!

I kept checking the time lines thinking bloody Menelou and his 3.08 were some kind of ghost that flitted thru the entire trial up to now. Every day that ridiculous assertion was made, over and over again, as if everything had to fit into that slot.. .


even my little dog got ratty about it..

god knows, there are enough time slots, measured in seconds without a spanner in the works , to additionally cope with.

Its a murder trial, people. it isn't a contest between observers.. there is enough gladiatorial events goin on in Pretoria.

weird Menelou people , who may , or may not have heard, or spoken to a reporter at some stage and for all anyone knows might tell the time by the sand in an hourglass and don't own a watch are a bit much.

 

[G.bng]

They probably keep the key in the door instead of carrying it around.

So strange a toilet door with a key! In a new build like OP's house you would expect it to be unlockable from outside using a coin or screwdriver. At least that's how they have to be over here along with the door having to open outwards and not inwards. Both are something to do with safety and disability regs, i.e. if a person falls to the floor unconscious blocking the door you can unlock the door and get to them.

 

[MeeBee]

So strange a toilet door with a key! In a new build like OP's house you would expect it to be unlockable from outside using a coin or screwdriver. At least that's how they have to be over here along with the door having to open outwards and not inwards. Both are something to do with safety and disability regs, i.e. if a person falls to the floor unconscious blocking the door you can unlock the door and get to them.

It is different but a SA resident has posted on here that it's common for doors in SA to be that way. I've actually been locked inside my father in law's apartment in Poland because he locked the door from the outside in the morning and the key that he left me jammed.

 

[nastasya]

Question to anyone who has their mind made up on OP's Guilt of 'intentional murder'. Is there anything the defence or prosecution could bring in that would change your mind?

• An audio recording made the night of the killings inside OP's bedroom that confirmed OP's version of events.
• Witnesses recanting their testimony.
• A voice message left by Reeva on somebody's phone saying, "Oh my god, Oscar just said to call the police. I think there's an intruder in the house!"
• A surveillance video from inside OP's bedroom of the night of the killing.
• A witness to testify there was a conspiracy between the other neighbors to put OP away.

 

[Trooper]

I give a lot of credit to these so called 'keystone kops'.. unlike so many other jurisdictions , in the UK, in the USA, in my own country, one doesn't have to wait years before their keystonian activities come to light.

Nel has proceeded along with this case in defiance of the mistakes, if any, of the investigators, put it all out there in court, and continued on . seems to me he believes there is enough and more than enough evidence to over ride it.

It would be a huge mistake for Oscar to believe that a bit of keystonish stuff AFTER the fact of his murdering Reeva is going to collapse the prosecution. Obviously, Nel doesn't believe it, and neither does Roux. Because if Roux thought he had a strong case to dismiss before trial, that's exactly what he would have put to the bench. Along with the evidence supporting. Thus saving his clients money, and Roux time. ( although both those positions are in conflict with Roux. _)

but he hasn't, has he?? he knows the score.

 

[Val1]

very thin stainless steel would be my guess.

Looks like poor design to me. It would dent easily.

Which brings me to another point. Just because something is shown in a photo it does not mean that it is relevant to the night in question.
Holes in doors, cracks, broken windows, and even fly-spots? on walls might well have been there prior to the incident.

Just had a thought... in this case we can not rule out the Keystone Kops causing damage after the event.

We KNOW there was a great big Police boot print on the "plank" maybe a cop moved it vigorously and hit the bath panel, of kicked it against the bath panel as well as stood on it. Who knows?

Okay, I admit it, I missed that bit of testimony proving it was a police foot print. I suppose Roux has done tests to determine this or is this a reference to Baba admitting that he didn't wear foot covers initially?

 

[Trooper]

Question to anyone who has their mind made up on OP's Guilt of 'intentional murder'. Is there anything the defence or prosecution could bring in that would change your mind?

The only thing that the defence could bring to the bench for me to change my mind is Oscar, in court, and in the presence of the judge,

(a) screaming like Reeva with a shattered hipbone, ( has to be exactly the same sound the witnesses testified to )

(b) making the sounds of a 2 cricket bats whacks sound like 4 gunshot sounds,

and (c) see (a) having his own hipbone shattered by a black talon bullet and saying at the same time, 'every things fine,' and not making a single solitary scream .

failing any of these occurrences. I would settle for the mysterious burglar, who , in dire need of a toilet, climbed the ladder , squeeged thru the window, found the toilet being occupied,(by Reeva), hearing Oscars stumps thud towards him, quickly exited from the bathroom window silently, piddled somewhere else and made off thru the back yard, and has now , stricken by guilt come forward.

 

[G.bng]

Exactly - which is why I don't think it was a woman screaming.

No, iirc, not "exactly". If Mangena's shot sequence is correct then there definitely would have been screams after shots 1 and 2, and with 3 and 4 a 50/50 chance too. On the other hand Saymaan confirmed that Reeva could have continued breathing a bit after the fatal head shot and I would think if you can breathe you can scream and i seem to recall Saymaan said that screaming in pain, fear etc. was an involuntary reaction. In which case if the head shot was last, as it seems likely, then Reeva should have been screaming through all until the last if Burger's testimony is correct then she could have made a final dying scream which as Reeva was weakened from loss of air/blood it tailed off.

 

[G.bng]

Burgers woke up to screams - they only heard the second set of loud bangs

Or they heard the shots but not the bats because the lower sound didn't travel so far.

 

[nastasya]

If she was hiding from intruders, she may have been too scared to make the noise to make a call. Also, she may not have actually had her phone in the toilet with her. I do wish we had some info on the iphones to know when they were last used to be on the internet or check mail or whatever activity when they were last used

There were no intruders, only OP with a gun, a cricket bat, and an air rifle.

Since there were no intruders, who do you think she was hiding from?

 

[Trooper]

how do the Burgers know they are hearing a second set of bangs if they don't hear the first?

how do they know its a second, without a first to define?

 

[nastasya]

This is one more bit of evidence that supports Oscar's version that the sounds at 3:08 were gunshots that were heard by 3 people that we are now aware of - Dr and Mrs. Stipp and Menelaou.

If everyone agrees that there were 2 sets of loud bangs, and we know that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hitting the door - the the only logical inference with the evidence we have is that the earlier sounds at 3:08 were the gunshots and the sounds at 3:17 were the sounds of the cricket bat hitting the door.

No one has made any allegation that there were any other sounds or activities that could have caused very loud gunshot-like sounds, besides the actual gunshots and the cricket bat hitting the door.

Only one problem.

Your scenario doesn't support OP's story at all. OP said he shot Reeva, then immediately went back to the bedroom, realized she wasn't in bed, put on his legs, kicked the door, then got the cricket bat and hit the door.

There's zero chance that OP's version of what happened would have left 10 minutes between the sound of the gunshots and the sound of the cricket bat.

 

[G.bng]

No you're not obligated. But let's hope you never end up on a jury.

Victim friendly doesn't mean everyone accused of a crime is guilty. Statistically, that's impossible and to approach justice the way you do would be irresponsible.

No all accused aren't guilty, but what Trooper is saying about setting aside OPs testimony and testing it with the hard evidence is more or less what a judge and their assistants have to do in countries where there are no juries and where they exist a jury should be doing exactly the same. A guilty accused has every motive to lie, embellish, invent, tell half truths, get friends to come as biased witnesses, etc. so if you don't test an accused testimony to its limits what would be the point of having a trial.

 

[nastasya]

Their contention is that the shots at 3:17 were the gunshots. They've offered no explanation for the first set of sounds Stipp heard. I do believe they agree the cricket bat came after the gunshots though because their own experts say so.

I believe that's a misrepresentation of what the expert said.

The cricket bat did NOT hit the bullet holes. However, the state expert said that the piece of wood from the door was broken out after the gunshot hole was made to the door. The expert showed how the cricket bat was used to hit well above the gunshots, and was used to pry the wood out of the door.

This leaves open the argument that the cricket bat hit the door, then gunshots, then OP prying out the wood from the door after killing RS.

 

[nastasya]

Not damning for reasons I have explained over and over and over about



1) One set of loud bangs heard by three people at 3:08;

2) loud screaming heard by all witnesses (after first loud bangs)

3) another set of loud bangs at 3:17 heard by additional witnesses as well as those who heard the first bangs;

4) Ms. Burger's changed testimony, (originally said she heard "2 to 3" shots, not 4)

5) state confirmation that gunshots were before cricket bat.

6) No allegation or evidence that there were any loud bangs heard by any witness besides gunshots and cricket bat hitting door.

To come up with any theory other than the gunshots were at 3:08 and the cricket bat hitting the door was at 3:17 -- you have to add in additional speculation about additional bangs that sounded like gunshots and also believe that no one heard the cricket bat hitting the door.

I suggest that is twisting oneself in knots to try to avoid the actual evidence that has been presented.

1. OP's version of events does not have him waiting 9 minutes, between 3:09 and 3:17 to hit the door with the bat.

2. State's case is that bullet holes came before wood being broken out of door, not before door was hit with the cricket bat. Big difference.

 

[Rumpole]

how do the Burgers know they are hearing a second set of bangs if they don't hear the first?

how do they know its a second, without a first to define?

GREAT point.

That is WHY they are misinterpreting what they heard. Glad you get it now.

Burger was asleep at the time Stipp reports the first set of bangs. Even putting aside what those bangs were... Burger never heard them. Her testimony starts AFTER the first bangs.

Burger heard screams then the bangs (Stipp's second set of bangs). She said 2, then 2 or three, and now she says 4 for sure She admits to READING and watching reports on the case, before making her Statements to police. She read that the case involved 4 gunshots. Not rocket science to figure out that she combined what she read with what she heard as her "testimony" evolved. Also burger is convinced that what she heard was gun shots because she knows the case involved gun shots. Not a stretch to see why she would assume loud bangs are gun shots. Who would guess "neighbors banging door with cricket bat" And she read that 4 gunshots were involved. Natural human mental process to "fill in the gaps" and so convince oneself that the bangs heard were gunshots. Shame that she wasn't awake to hear the first set of noises. She can not compare the two sets of bangs. However Stipp heard both sets and he testified that they sounded the same.

Also I don't see its a stretch for somebody to ASSUME high pitched screams/wails are female... it's a natural sort of thing to assume. But men can produce high pitched voices too... especially at time of great stress and anguish.

I do NOT think Burger is "lying" as such... but she has embellished her story over time. And she did go beyond testifying to what she actually heard and venture into her interpretation...of what she heard in the context of what she has seen and read after the event.

 

[nastasya]

Your clocks are all within 3 minutes of each other. We're talking about a 10 minute gap between the first bangs and the second bangs. I kind of doubt that all the witnesses who heard the bangs at 3:17 had clocks that were 10 minutes fast

Weird how OP's version doesn't account for that 10 minutes gap between the time he killed Reeva and the time he claims he broke down the door with the bat.

 

[lisasalinger]

And... the second set of loud bangs ended the screaming... I don't know how much simpler that can be, unless you think the bat banging stopped the screams?

This is such an important point that I will capitalize it (not to be obnoxious but to bring attention to it)

THE SECOND SET OF BANGS STOPPED THE SCREAMING

If we are to believe that these bangs are the bat on the door, WHY was Oscar shrieking BEFORE he knew what was behind the door and NOT AFTER he saw what was behind the door.

Logic would tell you that the desperate blood curdling cries of a man (who sounded like a woman) would have begun AFTER he saw what had happened to his beloved. But under this scenario, there is silence...

Marinate on that for a while.

 

[nastasya]

But the screams and the times of the sounds heard by the witnesses do match up exactly:

--Gunshots at 3:08 heard by the Stipps and Cristo M. (who will likely be called by defense?)

-- Loud screaming heard by all witnesses, including the Stipps

-- Loud bangs heard at 3:17 by all witnesses. Had to have been cricket bat sounds if the only two sounds were cricket bat and gunshots and the gunshots were before the cricket bat

-- Silence followed by Oscar crying or screaming loudly

So it's OP's defense he allowed RS to lay in a puddle of blood slumped over the toilet for 10 minutes before he called the police or an ambulance?

Seriously? That makes him look even more guilty.

 

[lisasalinger]

There were no intruders, only OP with a gun, a cricket bat, and an air rifle.

Since there were no intruders, who do you think she was hiding from?

And a metal baseball bat