Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[lisasalinger]

Weird how OP's version doesn't account for that 10 minutes gap between the time he killed Reeva and the time he claims he broke down the door with the bat.

This whole 10 minute business is not correct.

Dr Stipp stated in his testimony the following:

He was awakened by 3 loud bangs that he thought were gunshots

He immediately went to the balcony, looked out, saw the neighbors lights on and Oscars bathroom light on.

He heard female screams

He went back inside to call security. He claims couldn't get through. As he's dialing again, more shots. Tells his wife to duck.

He reiterated numerous times to Roux that this whole sequence was very quick. Nowhere did he say 10 minutes from anything I can recollect. I specifically remember him saying it was quick.

 

[katydid23]

I'm not gonna say it seems ok to me. I'm also not gonna gonna say it's because he was waiting until she was dead before alerting anyone. That seems quite a leap.

What was he waiting for? His girlfriend is seriously wounded, and is dying on the floor in front of him. He should have called an ambulance within seconds, then security to come help him transport her, if need be. :moo:

 

[G.bng]

She and her husband both testified unequivocally that they woke up to a screams

Have you never woken up and not known what woke you ? Burger can truthfully testify "unequivocally" that she woke to screams because if she says so that is surely what she heard at the moment she emerged from deep sleep, but often what you hear just as your brain awakes into full consciousness is not necessarily the same that woke you which may have been something you heard while still asleep and which had been disturbing your sleep without you consciously realising it.

 

[Trooper]

This whole 10 minute business is not correct.

Dr Stipp stated in his testimony the following:

He was awakened by 3 loud bangs that he thought were gunshots

He immediately went to the balcony, looked out, saw the neighbors lights on and Oscars bathroom light on.

He heard female screams

He went back inside to call security. He claims couldn't get through. As he's dialing again, more shots. Tells his wife to duck.

He reiterated numerous times to Roux that this whole sequence was very quick. Nowhere did he say 10 minutes from anything I can recollect. I specifically remember him saying it was quick.

what Stipp said, was .... it was SECONDS>. I am talking of SECONDS here, milady it all took place within SECONDS..

and, you know.. I kinda feel that Stipp is a man, being a radiologist, his practice is in a hospital environment,. he is trained to notice miniscule details, that he. of everyone , including Oscar, would be the one I would stake my dogs life on that he, Stipp, knows what seconds are, and wouldn't be 'confused' into thinking it was TEN MINUTES.

and , Stipp was fhe first medical responder. he diagnosed Reevas death timewise , by the condition of her eyes.. he knows what happens to eyes at the point of death and the minutes thereafter..

hard to believe he would , under those circumstances, be a man who regularly thinks time is passing in seconds when its apparently 10 minutes..

I reject the entire hypothesis.

 

[Trooper]

What was he waiting for? His girlfriend is seriously wounded, and is dying on the floor in front of him. He should have called an ambulance within seconds, then security to come help him transport her, if need be. :moo:

maybe he had to take a break from all this blood and gore stuff to check his ipad to see if an Aston Martin had come up for sale..


as one does, .. I read a magazine article about that, which makes it solid evidence of course, that murderers do that.

 

[steveml]

One other thing on the whole Roux / Mangena exchange... they had a bit of a go around on the magazine rack and what type of injury it caused (or didn't cause) to Reeva.

Roux was frustrated with Mangena on this point too. Mangena stated that he did not "test" the magazine rack to see if it was the cause of a particular injury on Reeva. Roux then suggested he do that testing and come back, and he paused and then said no he wasn't going to do that testing...

Well the look on the blonde lady lawyers face was priceless. There's something about her I don't like at all. I've caught her making faces quite a few times and she seems like a b##ch. Just my petty opinion, of course

Very well spotted. I noticed the exact same thing. She comes across as quite serene a lot of the time (and a bit of eye-candy some of the blokes that are watching the case), but geez, that look she can give when she's not happy about something. It's a proper 'how dare you' expression. Wouldn't like to be the guy that forgets her Valentines day present!

 

[Trooper]

Oscar stopped screaming and shouting at that point. The next minute(s) he was busy dragging Reeva from toilet to the bathroom and trying to give aid. Then making phone calls etc. There WERE no loud noises or screams after he broke the door down at 3:17... exactly what the burger(s) heard.

<modsnip>

who says he broke the door down at 3.17??

I merely enquire..


because no one has testified they heard anything resembling a door being broken down by a cricket bat.. not a single witness . Not one witness has testified that they heard a cricket bat whacking a door at any time.

the hypothesis that the may have heard this was firmly rejected by each witness approached with it

 

[Trooper]

Did I miss a witness so far who has stated they heard cricket bats at the door, 2 cricket bat whacks.. ( 2 marks on the door, 2 gouges in the bat = bat impacting on door twice and door impacting on bat twice ) ??

 

[MeeBee]

This whole 10 minute business is not correct.

Dr Stipp stated in his testimony the following:

He was awakened by 3 loud bangs that he thought were gunshots

He immediately went to the balcony, looked out, saw the neighbors lights on and Oscars bathroom light on.

He heard female screams

He went back inside to call security. He claims couldn't get through. As he's dialing again, more shots. Tells his wife to duck.

He reiterated numerous times to Roux that this whole sequence was very quick. Nowhere did he say 10 minutes from anything I can recollect. I specifically remember him saying it was quick.

I thought he was asked to estimate how long it was between the two volley of sounds he heard and he said 10 minutes.

 

[Val1]

Did I miss a witness so far who has stated they heard cricket bats at the door, 2 cricket bat whacks.. ( 2 marks on the door, 2 gouges in the bat = bat impacting on door twice and door impacting on bat twice ) ??

If you did, I did too. The only testimony I heard was the police "expert" saying that all he could verify as bat whacks were 2 marks which conformed with the two on the bat itself. I don't recall him ever saying that he could tell when they happened...

 

[Rumpole]

I thought he was asked to estimate how long it was between the two volley of sounds he heard and he said 10 minutes.

A period of time... a few minutes at least is necessary if you consider what transpired after the shots. OP distraught went to balcony to shout for help, bedroom and back twice... second time to put on his legs and grab the cricket bat. Then back to bash door (and make second set of bangs that were heard)
It makes a lot more sense than the State version. Shots at 3:17 meaning that OP had to do all that stuff... as well as bash the door (while nobody heard him), drag Reeva's body into the bathroom, try and assist her, then be on the phone 3:19, only a little over a minute after firing the shots. The State time line makes no sense. As Judge Judy might say... If it doesn't make sense it's not true.

 

[gajonka]

Respectfully, I was quoting the law in SA - and if it is reasonably possibly true that Oscar heard a sound and believed it was an intruder who was about to attack him, it's not murder but culpable homicide.

Realistically, this is what we're looking at. He'll get the lessor charge... and do 18 months... maybe 36 months. I hate to say it, but I'm afraid there will be stock place in his impact on the country... that is, unless we can get some good evidence down the stretch here,,, which I'm hoping for.

*** Note- Friday was a national holiday in SA. No, not Oscar Pistiorious Day...

 

[Trooper]

If you did, I did too. The only testimony I heard was the police "expert" saying that all he could verify as bat whacks were 2 marks which conformed with the two on the bat itself. I don't recall him ever saying that he could tell when they happened...

me too. that was all I heard.. I didn't hear any witness who actually HEARD those bats whack on the door. certainly no witness has said what TIME they heard a cricket bat slamming into that door.

that they did, is indisputable . there are the marks..door + bat.. no argument there..

the bit in contention is no one has said they heard the bat sounds, which is not surprising given the differential in sound of bat, v gunfire.. if they didn't hear them, how can they have said what time it happened??


:twocents:

 

[steveml]

Of course I am chronically biased against Oscar.. I am chronically biased towards getting a murderer off the streets, and some justice for Ms Steenkamp.

If I wasn't , I'd be faffing about on the Pistorious Family site, bleating about what a nice guy Oscar is, and it was all an accident, and aren't the police mean.

not me. I am chronically biased toward the State of South Africa's case against Oscar all the way.

This site is a victim friendy site. it isn't a site about how to find ways to get murderers off, Webslueths has always been a victim friendly site,

it could hardly be proposed that Oscar is the victim. With any rationality , that is.


so absolutely, count me in with those who are chronically biased against Oscar Pistorius. he is, according to the laws under which he resides, the man who pulled the trigger loaded with black talon bullets on Reeva Steenkamp.

if that's bias.... put me on the biased list with complete assurance that its exactly where I stand.. no ambiguity at all.

Yes, but that kind of bias can cause a person to not even consider the other person's story or the slight possibility that their story is true. It causes one to be deaf to all evidence and find that it all slants in one direction without looking at it objectively. That's one's perogative, but let's not act that that kind of bias means that one is seeking the truth. One is just looking to make all the evidence make someone look as guilty as possible without neutrality.

That's one of the best posts I've seen on the forum so far. The idea of a crime sleuthing forum isn't to exploit a personal belief of guilt or innocence, it's to explore the possibilities from both sides. Those that believe OP to be guilty should be looking at avenues that the defense will exploit to make his story stick, otherwise they could be in for a shock. Those that believe OP to be innocent likewise. On the basis of probability, one thing we know for sure is that in this crime there will be witness statements from both sides that are unclear, incorrect and misleading.

 

[gajonka]

me too. that was all I heard.. I didn't hear any witness who actually HEARD those bats whack on the door. certainly no witness has said what TIME they heard a cricket bat slamming into that door.

that they did, is indisputable . there are the marks..door + bat.. no argument there..

the bit in contention is no one has said they heard the bat sounds, which is not surprising given the differential in sound of bat, v gunfire.. if they didn't hear them, how can they have said what time it happened??


:twocents:

Thought:

(Outside of safety reasons)Why not use the gun to shoot off the lock ( two hollow points would do it), then open the door? Why the immediate thought of placing the gun down... with the bullets there and ready to go... and walking away to go for a walk... to turn the corner.. and grab the cricket bat...

SO the cricket bat gets involved earlier, believe...


Coming Soon To A Theatre Near YOU...


The Cricket Bat Killer

 

[G.bng]

I thought he was asked to estimate how long it was between the two volley of sounds he heard and he said 10 minutes.

Searching Stipp's testimony it was Roux who mentioned the "10 minutes" in the exchange as follows:

Roux:

About 10 minutes later you heard "Help, Help, Help"?​

by Sky News court reporter March 7 at 7:54 AM
​

Stipp:

I'm not sure about the 10 minutes, but I did hear "Help, Help, Help" after speaking to the security guards.
​

by Sky News court reporter March 7 at 7:55 AM​

 

[Really?]

Then what did Mr and Mrs Stipp and Christo M. hear at 3:08?

Could it have been the tub panel being hit ?

:dunno:

 

[steveml]

GREAT point.

That is WHY they are misinterpreting what they heard. Glad you get it now.

Burger was asleep at the time Stipp reports the first set of bangs. Even putting aside what those bangs were... Burger never heard them. Her testimony starts AFTER the first bangs.

Burger heard screams then the bangs (Stipp's second set of bangs). She said 2, then 2 or three, and now she says 4 for sure She admits to READING and watching reports on the case, before making her Statements to police. She read that the case involved 4 gunshots. Not rocket science to figure out that she combined what she read with what she heard as her "testimony" evolved. Also burger is convinced that what she heard was gun shots because she knows the case involved gun shots. Not a stretch to see why she would assume loud bangs are gun shots. Who would guess "neighbors banging door with cricket bat" And she read that 4 gunshots were involved. Natural human mental process to "fill in the gaps" and so convince oneself that the bangs heard were gunshots. Shame that she wasn't awake to hear the first set of noises. She can not compare the two sets of bangs. However Stipp heard both sets and he testified that they sounded the same.

Also I don't see its a stretch for somebody to ASSUME high pitched screams/wails are female... it's a natural sort of thing to assume. But men can produce high pitched voices too... especially at time of great stress and anguish.

I do NOT think Burger is "lying" as such... but she has embellished her story over time. And she did go beyond testifying to what she actually heard and venture into her interpretation...of what she heard in the context of what she has seen and read after the event.

I think far too much weight is being placed on the specifics of this witness statement. As you mentioned earlier, despite the severity of the gunshots and the apparent blood-curdling screams, she decided to sleep on it. Had she reported the crime with the urgency it required this testimony would not be in doubt. A crime that she suggested afterwards 'shocked her to the core' yet she didn't report at the time because of the far more shocking revelation...'me and my husband are quite private people'. Make of that what you will.

 

[soozieqtips]

Stipp heard the earlier same set of noises as Christo Menelaou as well.... so the witness with "military experience" confirms the first set of bangs as gunshots. He said both sets sounded the same..... which could merely be confirmation that cricket bat bangs indeed did sound like gunshots, even to an experienced ear, so certainly might well to a less experienced ear (burger(s) ). Which adds weight to assumptions that the Burger(s) heard bat noises (but thought they were gunshots)
The evidence does all tie together it you look at it all as a gestalt.

BBM - why have you put military experience in inverted commas as if it's in question?

 

[Trooper]

why are we subjected to this Menalou stuff again??