Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Interested Bystander]

Yes but you are sort of mixing the state's claims and Oscar's claim's together somewhat, the state's case is simply she was killed with shots at 3.17, so in there version i would imagine if they believe as vermeulen claimed Oscar used the bat on his stumps is something like this-
3.17 shots fired, oscar get's bat breaks down door(not heard by other's), phones stander, phones netcare, puts legs on carries reeva down.
A question i would like to know the answer to is how long it takes Oscar to put his prosthesis on?.
My biggest issue with the state is the lack of an explanation for the first set of sounds, that's there big problem.

I posted this a couple of days ago but here it is again. Look at 1.00 minute.

Pistorius' home - scene of a crime? - YouTube

 

[Lyra500]

Lol, what are you talking about? He's on the defense witness list and has given several interviews before. That he is a neighbor that will be called by the defense and not the prosecution, I'd say it's because his testimony will be more beneficial to Oscar than to the state.

Of course it will be more beneficial to OP. They are best mates according to several sources. They are close enough friends to be round each others houses and taking photos.

Not that I am cynical or anything.

 

[zwiebel]

O/T but breaking news; Brit Shrien Dewani's finally going to be extradited to SA to stand trial for arranging the murder of his new bride on honeymoon there.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-26705011

 

[bajas]

Thanks once again Minor4th for your patience in responding to posts and your clear and succinct explanations....and also to MeeBee and a few others, sorry, I can't go back to find your names

 

[bajas]

Just saw this...trial extended to mid-May:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26705776

 

[delilah]

A few comments/questions that people may be able to help with.

Isn't it odd that at no point does OP say in his statements that he called out for RS after he finds the bed empty and he thinks she was in the toilet? No "are you ok?" "Are you hurt?" Remember, according to his account she's made no sound so he doesn't know a) for definite that she's in there or b) whether she's been injured. Maybe because he knows she's already dead?

Burger's testimony. Just listened to the full version. I think others have commented on how strange it is that neither she nor her husband bothered to call police or security after realising they'd called their old, not current, security company. Someone hears what they believe to be someone being shot and can't be arsed to call the police? Maybe the company they spoke to agreed to call police - but that's not mentioned in her testimony.

If the defence are going to argue a ten min delay between shots and bat noises, how is that consistent with RS dying in OP's arms after he then carried her downstairs? That's about 12 mins after the head shot. Can medical experts support or refute that possibility? Sounds unlikely to me but I'm no doctor.

What's the explanation for RS' phone being in the bathroom on the floor next to OP's? (I wd never leave my £500+ iphone on the floor!)

I've also listened to a big chunk of Roux's x-exam of Stipp. I'm amazed Nel didn't object as it was full of leading questions, asking Stipp to comment on stuff he shouldn't have had to comment on, like wouldn't RS have had time to open the toilet window? Here's the link. WARNING: it's incredibly tedious. I don't know why people are saying Roux is a great DA; he's all over the place in this. If I was Masipa he'd have irritated the hell out of me with his condescending attitude, haphazard approach and frequent attempts to buy himself thinking time by repeating himself or pausing for what seems like hours between questions. And, yes, he's the one who suggests the ten minute interval - and Stipp doesn't buy it. What I'm still confused about is the timing of Stipp's calls (I think he made four from his house?) - at one point Roux says one was made at 0327, which made no sense. Maybe I nodded off...

http://youtu.be/sS2ca9adoe0

 

[delilah]

Also in the Roux x-exam of Stipp there is mention of a 'reconstruction' on 21 feb (pres 2013), including screaming. Have I missed this? I wasn't following on here before about a week ago.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Also in the Roux x-exam of Stipp there is mention of a 'reconstruction' on 21 feb (pres 2013), including screaming. Have I missed this? I wasn't following on here before about a week ago.

Yes there was but unfortunately for Roux two of the state witnesses heard it but Roux had not divulged it had taken place. That must have taken the wind from his sails.

 

[Viper]

Same could be said the other way couldn't it? Some expected more from the state in the way of 'solid staff's....not just circumstantial. Having said that the State haven't rested their case yet and the defence haven't started their side so perhaps it's premature to decide on their capabilities?

Oh no, I don't think that can be said at all. The state is laying out the facts of the case quite well! Roux, while loud and rude, is simply badgering the witnesses and appears quite desperate to my eyes, nothing more. At least thus far.

Here is an article that details Mr. Nel:

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3737-gerrie-nel-the-victims-advocate

My take away from the article is that Mr. Nel is a former senior police man and victims rights advocate and if he goes after someone in court it is for a very good reason and he will get them.

 

[LemonMousse]

A period of time... a few minutes at least is necessary if you consider what transpired after the shots. OP distraught went to balcony to shout for help, bedroom and back twice... second time to put on his legs and grab the cricket bat. Then back to bash door (and make second set of bangs that were heard)
It makes a lot more sense than the State version. Shots at 3:17 meaning that OP had to do all that stuff... as well as bash the door (while nobody heard him), drag Reeva's body into the bathroom, try and assist her, then be on the phone 3:19, only a little over a minute after firing the shots. The State time line makes no sense. As Judge Judy might say... If it doesn't make sense it's not true.

Where has the evidence come from that OP did all those things before calling Stander?

OP himself, no one else.

He could have shot Reeva through the door, spent a couple of minutes wondering what the hell to do (time it....two minutes is quite a long time) then phoned Stander.

Obviously he can't admit calling a non-emergency services person before even trying to help Reeva, can he? This would fit in with the fact that Stander didn't call an ambulance or the police - an odd omission for a sensible person whose just been asked to, isn't it? Perhaps OP didn't ask him to at all.

After the call to Stander and then Netcare, OP then had time to get his legs on, get the door open and carry her downstairs just in time for the doctor and Stander to get there.

It's most peculiar that if the facts don't fit with OP's account, then it's everyone else who must be wrong.

Three seperate people heard gunshots that ended a woman's terrified screams. All three identified a man's voice being audible at the same time. This is powerful evidence, and I think it's a big mistake to take OP's word over theirs.

 

[DebinGA]

Just saw this...trial extended to mid-May:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26705776

From BBC link above:

[begin quoted section]
"The court in Guateng province said that the trial would continue until 4 April, then adjourn for one week before resuming until 16 May.
"All parties involved" had agreed to the dates, the court said.
The trial will enter its fourth week on Monday, with five more witnesses expected to be called by the prosecution. The court had been adjourned to allow the defence team to finish preparing its case. [end quoted section]

 

[LemonMousse]

A few comments/questions that people may be able to help with.

Isn't it odd that at no point does OP say in his statements that he called out for RS after he finds the bed empty and he thinks she was in the toilet? No "are you ok?" "Are you hurt?" Remember, according to his account she's made no sound so he doesn't know a) for definite that she's in there or b) whether she's been injured. Maybe because he knows she's already dead?

Burger's testimony. Just listened to the full version. I think others have commented on how strange it is that neither she nor her husband bothered to call police or security after realising they'd called their old, not current, security company. Someone hears what they believe to be someone being shot and can't be arsed to call the police? Maybe the company they spoke to agreed to call police - but that's not mentioned in her testimony.

If the defence are going to argue a ten min delay between shots and bat noises, how is that consistent with RS dying in OP's arms after he then carried her downstairs? That's about 12 mins after the head shot. Can medical experts support or refute that possibility? Sounds unlikely to me but I'm no doctor.

What's the explanation for RS' phone being in the bathroom on the floor next to OP's? (I wd never leave my £500+ iphone on the floor!)

I've also listened to a big chunk of Roux's x-exam of Stipp. I'm amazed Nel didn't object as it was full of leading questions, asking Stipp to comment on stuff he shouldn't have had to comment on, like wouldn't RS have had time to open the toilet window? Here's the link. WARNING: it's incredibly tedious. I don't know why people are saying Roux is a great DA; he's all over the place in this. If I was Masipa he'd have irritated the hell out of me with his condescending attitude, haphazard approach and frequent attempts to buy himself thinking time by repeating himself or pausing for what seems like hours between questions. And, yes, he's the one who suggests the ten minute interval - and Stipp doesn't buy it. What I'm still confused about is the timing of Stipp's calls (I think he made four from his house?) - at one point Roux says one was made at 0327, which made no sense. Maybe I nodded off...

http://youtu.be/sS2ca9adoe0

Really, really good point. Saayman said she could only have taken a very few breaths after the head shot. She would have been still breathing for quite some minutes if the first shots were the shots that killed her given that she died in OP's arms at the bottom of the stairs.

Both the pathologists evidence and the evidence of the three witnesses are NOT consistent with OP's account of what happened that night. That's extremely damning.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I may be wrong but I thought both of the phones in the bathroom were Reeva's.

 

[Viper]

Thought:

(Outside of safety reasons)Why not use the gun to shoot off the lock ( two hollow points would do it), then open the door? Why the immediate thought of placing the gun down... with the bullets there and ready to go... and walking away to go for a walk... to turn the corner.. and grab the cricket bat...

SO the cricket bat gets involved earlier, believe...


Coming Soon To A Theatre Near YOU...


The Cricket Bat Killer

Indeed! I personally can't wait to hear OP tell the court why he, as a grown man and a man licenced to own a firearm (he knew the laws of self defense in SA), deemed it necessary to fire four bullets at a threat that he perceived in his mind based upon simply hearing a noise and he never saw anything.

Some here assert that because he felt threatened he was justified in his actions so his killing Reeva is somehow justified under SA law, but that appears far fetched.

 

[G.bng]

to summarize.. Oscar makes 2 trips to the bedroom after shooting Reeva.

Sorry to have to correct you Trooper, but reading OP's bail statement I make it 3 trips back to the bedroom and 4 out to the bathroom if you count OP's shooting trip... a lot of to-ing and fro-ing methinks:

03.08 : 1st trip bathroom : BANG, BANG, (BANG?), (BANG?)​

03.?? : 1st trip bedroom : REEVA NOT IN BED​

03.?? : 2nd trip bathroom : TOILET LOCKED​

03.?? : 2nd trip bedroom : HELP, HELP, HELP + PROSTHETICS​

03.?? : 3rd trip bathroom : KICKS DOOR (more BANG BANGS ?)​

03.?? : 3rd trip bedroom : COLLECTS CRICKET BAT​

03:17 : 4th trip bathroom - BANG, BANG, (BANG?), (BANG?)​

so why would Roux want him hanging about for 10 minutes with no bat, and having shot the gun off, before he yells help help help?

I think the repeated back and forths between bedroom and bathroom would need a bit of time but maybe not 10 mins unless OP reacts in slow motion.

Stipp heard no bangs AFTER he hears the help help help call from Oscar... and that's because Stipp didn't hear the cricket bat sounds, and couldn't be confusing those sounds with gunfire.. nor could anyone else..

I'm not sure when the Burgers say they heard the "helps" but I thought Stipp did hear "helps" after shots, and if Stipp didn't hear cricket bat sounds, (or do you mean Burger?) what were the two volleys of bangs Stipp did hear... shots and... ?

sequence... screaming, gunfire, woman screaming mingled screaming, 3 more shots, pause, .. help help help..

that's the sounds the witnesses have testified to.

I have transcripts of the neighbour testimonies so it may be possible to tally all the events together with what each ear witness heard, but it's difficult without knowing which volley the Burgers heard.

 

[G.bng]

Apparently, after Nel calls his last witness, Roux can ask that all charges be dismissed against his client.

Yep, the defence can call what is referred to as "No case to answer" once the prosecution rests and imo I think they will make a play but I don't think the judge will be amenable to it because at very least for OP there will be at least culpable homicide on board so imbw but I doubt she will allow it.

 

[LemonMousse]

Sorry to have to correct you Trooper, but reading OP's bail statement I make it 3 trips back to the bedroom and 4 out to the bathroom if you count OP's shooting trip... a lot of to-ing and fro-ing methinks:

03.08 : 1st trip bathroom : BANG, BANG, (BANG?), (BANG?)​

03.?? : 1st trip bedroom : REEVA NOT IN BED​

03.?? : 2nd trip bathroom : TOILET LOCKED​

03.?? : 2nd trip bedroom : HELP, HELP, HELP + PROSTHETICS​

03.?? : 3rd trip bathroom : KICKS DOOR (more BANG BANGS ?)​

03.?? : 3rd trip bedroom : COLLECTS CRICKET BAT​

03:17 : 4th trip bathroom - BANG, BANG, (BANG?), (BANG?)​

I think the repeated back and forths between bedroom and bathroom would need a bit of time but maybe not 10 mins unless OP reacts in slow motion.



I'm not sure when the Burgers say they heard the "helps" but I thought Stipp did hear "helps" after shots, and if Stipp didn't hear cricket bat sounds, (or do you mean Burger?) what were the two volleys of bangs Stipp did hear... shots and... ?



I have transcripts of the neighbour testimonies so it may be possible to tally all the events together with what each ear witness heard, but it's difficult without knowing which volley the Burgers heard.

Yes - Stipp reports hearing "help, help, help" in a man's voice shortly after the last bangs. He said it seemed to be coming from a different place....slightly to the left. This fits in perfectly with OP standing on his balcony calling for help.

In his affidavit, he says he did this before even breaking through the door - so the shots MUST have been at 3.17.

Bingo.

 

[soozieqtips]

Prosecutors at Oscar Pistorius's murder trial have presented a "golden thread" of evidence suggesting that Reeva Steenkamp screamed before she died, leaving the athlete with "serious questions" to answer and his defence likely to hinge on his own testimony, a legal expert in South Africa has said.

The pathologist who performed the autopsy on Steenkamp's body
said it would have been "abnormal" for her not to scream from some of her injuries.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/23/oscar-pistorius-trial-murdered-reeva-steenkamp

Not that we hadn't assumed this already, but worth a reminder that the pathologist himself claims it would have been 'abnormal' for Reeva not to scream.

 

[LemonMousse]

Also, Roux said a very revealing thing, I thought, at the beginning of his cross of Stipp.

"I'm not trying to attack your credibility, doctor - it's not necessary with you".

Oh, really, Roux? Whose credibility is it necessary to attack then?

 

[zwiebel]

Just saw this...trial extended to mid-May:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26705776

This is odd because defence only agreed to the pause this week if prosecution kept to their agreement to conclude their case next week. Or is that still the case, and it's just been extended for the benefit of defence, I wonder?