Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Insp.Dots]

how do the Burgers know they are hearing a second set of bangs if they don't hear the first?

how do they know its a second, without a first to define?

Wasn't it the Burgers who held back on going to the Police and give statements until after they heard OP's version in the bail application?

 

[LemonMousse]

So, to sum up:

Stipp is woken by loud bangs, he thinks they are gunshots. He hears a woman screaming and is on his own balcony within moments. He hears more screaming interspersed with, he thinks, a lower man's voice. Much has been made of the fact that the man's voice wasn't mentioned in his first statement. He himself brought that up during his evidence and said (paraphrasing): I also mentioned (when talking to the police) that I thought I could hear a lower man's voice at the same time as the screams, but I wasn't sure. That isn't in my statement. This is not quite the same as "I forgot all about it until a year later" as other people seem to have taken it.

He goes back into his bedroom, faffs around trying to call someone (first two calls are unsuccessful) and is unsure of whether there are any more screams while he's doing this. He then hears more screams and gunshots with the last scream finishing moments after the last shot.

Throughout all of this he notices that the bathroom light is on, although the toilet one is dark. After the last shots, he notices a pale figure moving from right to left.

Shortly after this, he hears a man's voice calling for help from the left of the property.

I think OP shot Reeva through the door, became beside himself with panic when he realised what he'd done, couldn't open the door because it was locked so ran out on to the balcony to shout for help. When you think about it, this is an odd thing to do given that he has telephone and a panic alarm to get help with. This suggests that he didn't quite know what he was doing at this stage, which would make sense.

He then calls Stander. We don't know what was said yet, but we do know that the result of the call was NOT Stander calling an ambulance or the police.

OP then calls Netcare. We don't know what was said, but he claims they told him not to wait for an ambulance but to take her straight to hospital. If this is true, then it's unlikely that they can have had any idea of the extent of Reeva's injuries. Maybe they didn't know because OP didn't know himself yet.

At this point, he probably puts on his legs, runs down and opens the door before going back up.

He then gets the bat and uses it to break through the door. No one heard this, it wouldn't have been particularly loud, and it's possible that the bullets had already caused it to become unstable so prising out the panels was quite easy.

At some point, his phone accidentally called security (maybe it was on speed dial and got pressed in all the kerfuffle). Security answers but only crying can be heard - I suspect OP didn't know this call connected and anyone could hear him. Security calls him back and OP says everything is fine because he doesn't want them involved until Stander gets there.

He gets Reeva out of the toilet and carries her downstairs (just as Stipp arrives) where she dies. It's probable that her heart is still beating on the way down because of the arterial spurts, indicating she'd been shot very recently - not 10 minutes ago when Stipp heard the first bangs.

We don't know yet what the first bangs were. Nel made it very clear to Roux that the state had an explanation for that and it would become clear in due course. I expect the shot through the door and broken bath panel will play some role, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Viper]

If I HAVE to guess what caused the dent in the plate below bath.. I would say somebody threw the "plank" (panel from door) from toilet and it hit the plate... once.
Certainly THAT explanation could be easily "put to M'Lady"... even Roux's one-eyed pet cat, could propose that as a reasonable explanation... and that is all the Defence need do (if anything)
IF the State elaborate on the dented panel at all... which they have not.

Photo showing plank corner near dented bath panel

Photo showing close-up of damaged steel panel

Nice quality images, thank you for sharing!

The damage to that metal plate (in my eyes and experience) required a significant blow, a very powerful blow. I could believe that a very powerful swing of the bat or a very powerful kick did that, but not casting off or throwing aside a panel of the door as OP was ripping it apart.

 

[zwiebel]

Didn't Roux insist that OP had bashed the panels in and not ripped them out with his bare hands? I seem to recall wondering about that particular discussion.

 

[LemonMousse]

Nice quality images, thank you for sharing!

The damage to that metal plate (in my eyes and experience) required a significant blow, a very powerful blow. I could believe that a very powerful swing of the bat or a very powerful kick did that, but not casting off or throwing aside a panel of the door as OP was ripping it apart.

Absolutely no way could a thrown plank cause a dent like that. No way. Is the panel made of tin foil or something?

And what kind of arc would the plank have to fall in if it's yanked out of the door, falls toward the floor and then goes up and to the left a bit to leave that dent?

I am starting to think that some people have confused OP with Superman! He can hit a door with a bat with enough power to replicate gunshots that would have been 10 times louder (managing to not even dent it in the process, quite a trick)' and fling a piece of plywood at such a speed that it leaves an enormous dent in a metal plate.

Gosh!

 

[LemonMousse]

Didn't Roux insist that OP had bashed the panels in and not ripped them out with his bare hands? I seem to recall wondering about that particular discussion.

Yes, he did - he has to insist that if he's going to try and persuade us that the gunshots Stipp heard were OP smashing down the door.

That door shows no indication at all of being "smashed in". There are no dents and it barely splintered. The pieces of the door are all fairly neat planks, indicating that it was prised out rather than bashed out.

I don't think anyone heard OP smashing in a door, there was nothing much to hear, other than the glue holding the bits of wood together cracking.

The ONLY evidence that OP smashed down the door comes from OP saying he did.....and for the life of me, I am not quite sure why we should be willing to dismiss the credible evidence of three independent people in order to fit with the statements made by an accused murderer facing 25 years in prison.

 

[delilah]

I may be wrong but I thought both of the phones in the bathroom were Reeva's.

Not sure and can't find a definitive statement on this. Appear to have been four phones at the scene - 2 iPhones and two blackberries - and a fifth was provided to police later on by OP.

The blackberries hadn't been used for some time.

I think it was Botha who said early on that no calls had been made on the phones recovered at the time of the incident. Does that mean OP had used the fifth phone to call Stander and Netcare? Speaking of which, did OP speak to Stander the man or Stander the lawyer, his daughter?

 

[Viper]

Didn't Roux insist that OP had bashed the panels in and not ripped them out with his bare hands? I seem to recall wondering about that particular discussion.

That seems to be what he wants the court to believe. But the two superficial marks left by the bat strikes tells a different story.

It is so fantastic, what Roux wants to put forth in the face of what the court can see with their own eyes! I honestly believe that if Roux had an opportunity to cross examine the door itself he would be badgering it insisting that it is really a window if that was what he needed it to be to fit OP's fairy tale!!!

 

[G.bng]

question i would like to know the answer to is how long it takes Oscar to put his prosthesis on?.

From a video someone posted of an interview with OP quite a few pages of this thread back, OP's prosthesis are slip-ons and go on like a slipper... with shoes and all, not even any laces to tie!

biggest issue with the state is the lack of an explanation for the first set of sounds, that's there big problem.

Yep, a real conundrum. The state are either way ahead of everyone, including the defence, with something up their sleeve on this or they are in the dark. Nel clearly indicated during the Stipp cross that the State's case is that the shots at 3:17 killed Reeva but to date they have let on zilch to explain the first volley or on what basis they concluded the 3:17 bangs are the real deal. The one thing I have noticed is that Nel has been very cagey about giving any information away to the defence.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Not sure and can't find a definitive statement on this. Appear to have been four phones at the scene - 2 iPhones and two blackberries - and a fifth was provided to police later on by OP.

The blackberries hadn't been used for some time.

I think it was Botha who said early on that no calls had been made on the phones recovered at the time of the incident. Does that mean OP had used the fifth phone to call Stander and Netcare? Speaking of which, did OP speak to Stander the man or Stander the lawyer, his daughter?

I think I picked it up from tweets but it is difficult to track down now. I do have a link for the thread on Facebook but it is a bit limited because I don't think they can agree exactly what they heard.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/592481120830461?stream_ref=10

I think there were definitely at least 4 in the house, 2 blackberries and 2 iphones plus possibly a fifth that OP did not hand in until the Bail Hearing. Next week we should have more info about the phones. I think tomorrow we are going to hear from the phone expert. That may or may not be riveting, depending whether anything was found on the phone for which Oscar cannot remember his WhatsApp security code.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Absolutely no way could a thrown plank cause a dent like that. No way. Is the panel made of tin foil or something?

And what kind of arc would the plank have to fall in if it's yanked out of the door, falls toward the floor and then goes up and to the left a bit to leave that dent?

I am starting to think that some people have confused OP with Superman! He can hit a door with a bat with enough power to replicate gunshots that would have been 10 times louder (managing to not even dent it in the process, quite a trick)' and fling a piece of plywood at such a speed that it leaves an enormous dent in a metal plate.

Gosh!

I see your point but it is only an access panned to the bath so it could well be made of a thin metal perhaps. I DO think we have one check of a lot of unanswered questions to all aspects...here's hoping next week brings the answers !

 

[Insp.Dots]

Roll on tomorrow and some good solid evidence....If anyone is interested there is an excellent programme taken from BOTH sides on Dateline (you tube) sorry I can't copy/paste on this. It deals with the facts from a totally neutral position and lays to rest certain untruths stated in the media.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Nice quality images, thank you for sharing!

The damage to that metal plate (in my eyes and experience) required a significant blow, a very powerful blow. I could believe that a very powerful swing of the bat or a very powerful kick did that, but not casting off or throwing aside a panel of the door as OP was ripping it apart.

Wow I have kept reading about this damaged bath plate but never realised what a big dent was in it . No way do I believe that a light weight door panel could do that by just being thrown back unless I saw a demonstration to that effect .
Wonder if it will be raised at some point .

 

[Viper]

I think I picked it up from tweets but it is difficult to track down now. I do have a link for the thread on Facebook but it is a bit limited because I don't think they can agree exactly what they heard.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/592481120830461?stream_ref=10

I think there were definitely at least 4 in the house, 2 blackberries and 2 iphones plus possibly a fifth that OP did not hand in until the Bail Hearing. Next week we should have more info about the phones. I think tomorrow we are going to hear from the phone expert. That may or may not be riveting, depending whether anything was found on the phone for which Oscar cannot remember his WhatsApp security code.

Clearly the phone that he used after the murder is important, he would not have had it taken out if the crime scene if it did not have something incriminating on it. The question then is what is in WhatsApp that could possibly be incriminating? My first thought is a list of texts to his brother or sister or whomever describing what really happened, perhaps it said, "We had an argument and I killed her." After firing four handgun shots in a small, marble everywhere room, without ear protection OP would be deafened for a period of time, I just don't know how long. So texting immediately following the shooting was probably his only option and he may have really screwed up there!

Just for reference, sounds that exceed 85db (decibels) can cause damage hearing. A sound of 160db can break the eardrum. The sound of the handgun was roughly 154db.

 

[turaj]

Boy Roux hit the jackpot here...CNN reports trial will go until Mid May and I think they are right. Combine a defense that asks the same questions over and over and a court that has more tea times than testimony and many days off...Easter will probably be at least a week off and you are right up to Summer.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think I picked it up from tweets but it is difficult to track down now. I do have a link for the thread on Facebook but it is a bit limited because I don't think they can agree exactly what they heard.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/592481120830461?stream_ref=10

I think there were definitely at least 4 in the house, 2 blackberries and 2 iphones plus possibly a fifth that OP did not hand in until the Bail Hearing. Next week we should have more info about the phones. I think tomorrow we are going to hear from the phone expert. That may or may not be riveting, depending whether anything was found on the phone for which Oscar cannot remember his WhatsApp security code.

It is so bad he was allowed to remove a phone from the crime scene .

 

[LemonMousse]

This is the evidence that I think shows that it was the 3.17 shots that killed Reeva:

It's very difficult to be sure precisely when Stipp heard the first bangs as he doesn't know and he's the only one who heard them. We know he called security at 3.15:51 and given that he'd tried two other numbers first, one of which rang for quite a long time, plus he'd spent time on the balcony hearing screams, I think it's likely that that call was made 2.5 to 3 mins after the first set of bangs.....putting them at a around 3.12. In other words about 5 minutes before the second set at 3.17.

Stipp is also clear that after the 3.17 bangs he clearly heard a man calling for help from a position more to the left of the property than the previous screams. OP's bedroom balcony is to the left of the bathroom from Stipp's point of view.

OP says he shouted from the balcony after he'd found the toilet door locked and before he broke it down.

If he's telling the truth on this, then the shots that killed Reeva can only be the 3.17 ones.

And if he is telling the truth that the first thing he did was shout from the balcony, then he needs to explain why this happened 5 minutes after he shot her, if he maintains that happened around 3.12.

If he did shoot her at 3.12, the Saayman's testimony is called into question. He was clear that Reeva could only have taken a few breaths after the shots that killed her. In OP's version, she was still alive, barely, 10 minutes later as he was carrying her down the stairs. This is considerably more than "a few breaths".

I think he shot and killed her at 3.17, yelled from the balcony, called Stander and Netcare, then broke the door.

He cannot possibly admit to this though, for obvious reasons.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think I picked it up from tweets but it is difficult to track down now. I do have a link for the thread on Facebook but it is a bit limited because I don't think they can agree exactly what they heard.

https://www.facebook.com/Justice4ReevaSteenkamp/posts/592481120830461?stream_ref=10

I think there were definitely at least 4 in the house, 2 blackberries and 2 iphones plus possibly a fifth that OP did not hand in until the Bail Hearing. Next week we should have more info about the phones. I think tomorrow we are going to hear from the phone expert. That may or may not be riveting, depending whether anything was found on the phone for which Oscar cannot remember his WhatsApp security code.

I have been following that Facebook website which is where I first read about the extended adjournment but didn't know how to cut and post a link .
Will be watching the phone expert tomorrow for sure .
With regard to the extended adjournment,does anyone know how normal this is ? It seems odd that the trial is going to run for a while longer and then break ,why not just adjourn now ?

 

[steveml]

Not quite accurate. In her testimony she gave the phone to her husband who rang the number she had on it for security. She did not have the security number for Silver Wood and wanted her security people to contact Silver Woods security BUT she had unfortunately selected the security number from where she had previously lived.

I agree they perhaps could have done more but it is untrue that they did not try to contact someone. You can listen to her testimony here:-

Oscar Pistorius murder trial Michelle Burger's testimony - YouTube

As I've asked previously, how much weight can you really put on this testimony? Trying to report a crime is not the same as reporting a crime. We have no evidence of a call made to the wrong security company, this is only witness testimony. OK, they realise it's the wrong security company, the logical next step is...you phone the correct security company. Ah, problem here, the couple don't have the number of the security company where they live. Why? Were they abroad or at work or somewhere they would not be expected to have the number? No, they were in their house, the most reasonable place you would be expected to have the number.

I put it to you, that if Reeva died as a result of OP claiming that he phoned an ambulance that didn't turn up, how much weight would you give to his testimony if his reply was, 'well I did phone an ambulance, but I phoned one from where I used to live by mistake'. Ah, but presumably you immediately then phoned the correct one? 'Well er no, I just left it'.

I'm not convinced that Ms Burger didn't hear anything that night. But I'm also far from convinced beyond reasonable doubt that she did.

 

[LemonMousse]

I see your point but it is only an access panned to the bath so it could well be made of a thin metal perhaps. I DO think we have one check of a lot of unanswered questions to all aspects...here's hoping next week brings the answers !

Yes, probably is quite thin metal - but it will have been held in place by some heavy duty screws - and they have come away at the bottom, indicating quite some force.

I am very interested to know what Nel has to say too!