Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[Rumpole]

Sorry to have to correct you Trooper, but reading OP's bail statement I make it 3 trips back to the bedroom and 4 out to the bathroom if you count OP's shooting trip... a lot of to-ing and fro-ing methinks:

03.08 : 1st trip bathroom : BANG, BANG, (BANG?), (BANG?)​

03.?? : 1st trip bedroom : REEVA NOT IN BED​

03.?? : 2nd trip bathroom : TOILET LOCKED​

03.?? : 2nd trip bedroom : HELP, HELP, HELP + PROSTHETICS​

03.?? : 3rd trip bathroom : KICKS DOOR (more BANG BANGS ?)​

03.?? : 3rd trip bedroom : COLLECTS CRICKET BAT​

03:17 : 4th trip bathroom - BANG, BANG, (BANG?), (BANG?)​

I think the repeated back and forths between bedroom and bathroom would need a bit of time but maybe not 10 mins unless OP reacts in slow motion.



I'm not sure when the Burgers say they heard the "helps" but I thought Stipp did hear "helps" after shots, and if Stipp didn't hear cricket bat sounds, (or do you mean Burger?) what were the two volleys of bangs Stipp did hear... shots and... ?



I have transcripts of the neighbour testimonies so it may be possible to tally all the events together with what each ear witness heard, but it's difficult without knowing which volley the Burgers heard.

The burgers heard bangs around 3:17 That is known based on the time Johnson was on phone ( to wrong security) and the bangs coming after that.
That tallies with Stipps SECOND set of bangs at around 3:17.
No doubt in my mind that shots were at around 3:00 (give or take) and that cricket bat bangs were at 3:17. Burgers heard OP screaming and shouting and then cricket bat bangs. The Burgers were asleep at the time of the shots..... It's a common psychological phenomenon to experience "selective perception" The Burgers read and heard of events in the news and incorporated that into what they perceived. They may well believe what they have created in their minds... but they are wrong.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

There were a lot of things reported early on that were later found to be untrue so I'd take it with a grain of salt. I also heard that Oscar's car was running and the door was open, possibly him preparing to take her to the hospital. It's possible the early reports simply got this wrong.

Yes I kind of had thought that until I started thinking about his statement and behaviour and that everything he says he did may have been to fit in somehow with what happened and maybe cover his tracks for instance him going down to open the door ,opening and closing the balcony doors is a little too contrived for me bearing in mind he did not call an ambulance straight away and told the security guy he was fine.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Does anyone know how close Stipp's house is to OP's ? I remember some news on MSM last year was about a witness 50 mt close to Oscars...Not that exactly true of course ...

 

[steveml]

You actually said that there is reasonable doubt that she heard anything at all. No there isn't because there's phone evidence that her husband tried to call security. Whatever you personally think of their subsequent inaction, the evidence proves they heard something.

We then have to consider whether it's an astonishing coincidence that they report hearing almost exactly the same sounds as Stipp did and Mrs Berger's impression of the shots (bang......bang bang bang) is exactly how the ballistics expert says they must have happened.

Of course, it's not impossible that this university lecturer and her professional husband waited until the bail hearing then constructed a tale around the evidence they heard from that purely in order to play a part in putting a man they've never met in prison for the rest of his life.

Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

Apologies, my bad, the reasonable doubt is relating to the screaming. I'd be contradicting myself if I accepted she heard something and then suggested reasonable doubt to hearing anything at all.

Why does there have to be a presumption that if a witness is incorrect they must be either gaining something, collaborating or lying?

There are prosecution witness testimonies that are incorrect in many cases, purely for the fact that we're usually reliant upon recollection.

I can't answer the question as to whether The Burgers are lying, because the question isn't at all relevant. The law doesn't have this rigid concept that one is either telling the truth or one must be lying. If you recall something in court which you thought you saw or heard, and it later transpires that you were totally or partially wrong, you don't get charged as long as you haven't knowingly lied.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The burgers heard bangs around 3:17 That is known based on the time Johnson was on phone ( to wrong security) and the bangs coming after that.
That tallies with Stipps SECOND set of bangs at around 3:17.
No doubt in my mind that shots were at around 3:00 (give or take) and that cricket bat bangs were at 3:17. Burgers heard OP screaming and shouting and then cricket bat bangs. The Burgers were asleep at the time of the shots..... It's a common psychological phenomenon to experience "selective perception" The Burgers read and heard of events in the news and incorporated that into what they perceived. They may well believe what they have created in their minds... but they are wrong.

Do you think it is possible there were two sets of gun shot and that no one heard the two cricket bat swings ?

 

[MeeBee]

Honestly, I'm not being argumentative, but microphones are designed to record sounds, not determine how loud they are in relation to each other. There are settings inside that balance out sounds and bring them into line.

You need very high-tech specialist equipment to record sounds and try to get a an approximation of "loudness". That's why microphones are not used for this purpose - decibel meters are.

A cricket bat in a door has been recorded at 114db....and that was really whacking it. A gun is at least 130 db, this is 10 times louder. Most guns are more like 140 db, this is about 24 times louder than a cricket bat on a door.

On the YT vid, did the gun sound 10 times louder? No, that's because the microphone balanced out the sounds as it's designed to.

The point is they sounded almost identical. If by chance the sound carried into Stipp's windows and into his ears, maybe with the wind, they could sound the same to him. Of this point, I am certain.

 

[lisasalinger]

As I've asked previously, how much weight can you really put on this testimony? Trying to report a crime is not the same as reporting a crime. We have no evidence of a call made to the wrong security company, this is only witness testimony. OK, they realise it's the wrong security company, the logical next step is...you phone the correct security company. Ah, problem here, the couple don't have the number of the security company where they live. Why? Were they abroad or at work or somewhere they would not be expected to have the number? No, they were in their house, the most reasonable place you would be expected to have the number.

I put it to you, that if Reeva died as a result of OP claiming that he phoned an ambulance that didn't turn up, how much weight would you give to his testimony if his reply was, 'well I did phone an ambulance, but I phoned one from where I used to live by mistake'. Ah, but presumably you immediately then phoned the correct one? 'Well er no, I just left it'.

I'm not convinced that Ms Burger didn't hear anything that night. But I'm also far from convinced beyond reasonable doubt that she did.

I'm a few pages behind right now, so hopefully I'm not double posting but you are incorrect on the point that I bolded.

They do have phone records of the call he made to security. The call ended just before 3:17am. They heard the shots right after that. That is how the 3:17am time came in to play.

 

[MeeBee]

Do you think it is possible there were two sets of gun shot and that no one heard the two cricket bat swings ?

Yes..

 

[james83]

Stipp was closer to Oscar's house than the microphone was in the YT demo, which was situated to be more around the Burger's place, I think (could be wrong).I think there is a distinct possibility that he did hear the bat hitting the door.

So how do you explain the fact that the sound's of the 2nd,3rd and 4th bangs were described as to fast to be a cricket bat?.

 

[MeeBee]

So how do you explain the fact that the sound's of the 2nd,3rd and 4th bangs were described as to fast to be a cricket bat?.

I think that's his opinion of what he heard.

 

[Viper]

Yes that was my understanding and I think someone else on here thought the same . I think he knew where Reeva was before he shot her because he could see through the crack in the door .
I keep trying to be impartial but really struggle with what we are seeing so far but as I said yesterday I will listen to the defence as well .

I edited my post quite a bit, discussing the numerous details and reading so many posts arguing this and that about the ear witnesses and time stamps it is all beginning to confuse me. Anyway, I believe I corrected myself with the edits. Sorry for the trouble.

 

[lisasalinger]

Where has the evidence come from that OP did all those things before calling Stander?

OP himself, no one else.
He could have shot Reeva through the door, spent a couple of minutes wondering what the hell to do (time it....two minutes is quite a long time) then phoned Stander.

Obviously he can't admit calling a non-emergency services person before even trying to help Reeva, can he? This would fit in with the fact that Stander didn't call an ambulance or the police - an odd omission for a sensible person whose just been asked to, isn't it? Perhaps OP didn't ask him to at all.

After the call to Stander and then Netcare, OP then had time to get his legs on, get the door open and carry her downstairs just in time for the doctor and Stander to get there.

It's most peculiar that if the facts don't fit with OP's account, then it's everyone else who must be wrong.

Three seperate people heard gunshots that ended a woman's terrified screams. All three identified a man's voice being audible at the same time. This is powerful evidence, and I think it's a big mistake to take OP's word over theirs.

BBM

You and I are totally on the same page!! I do not believe that Oscar did all that running back and forth after the shots. It makes perfect sense to me that he knew what he did because he intended to do it. No need to run from room to room. And he very likely could have called Stander before breaking down the door.

I'm just not convinced that he put his legs on before doing it, partly because there are no footprints in the blood. The bat marks appear to line up with somebody on stumps. And the bottom of his socks didn't appear to have blood on them. Athough I can't say for sure.

Looking at the pics of his feet, it appears to me that there is only blood on the top. How did he drag her out of the toilet room and not leave footprints somewhere, particularly on the carpet!

I say he was on stumps for most of it and only put the legs on when he was ready to bring her down the stairs.

 

[Rumpole]

Nice quality images, thank you for sharing!

The damage to that metal plate (in my eyes and experience) required a significant blow, a very powerful blow. I could believe that a very powerful swing of the bat or a very powerful kick did that, but not casting off or throwing aside a panel of the door as OP was ripping it apart.

My point was that it COULD have been plank. The name of the game is "Doubt" who can say for sure what caused the dent. Vermeulen inspected the plate and had nothing to report. There will not be any evidence to say what caused the dent. We don't even know if it is relevant to the events of that night. It could have been damaged some time before. Who knows?

FWIW (not much)To me it looks like damage from a kick.... but whose kick? And when? Even if it was OP kicking it what does that prove? It could have been part of his overall frustration... tried kicking the door to get in and got nowhere, turned around and kicked the panel. Not a sinister scenario in my mind. Could have been one of the bangs in the "cricket bat" set of bangs.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I haven't heard Van der Nest's testimony but the BBC quoted him as describing the damage to hair on RS' head:

' "It is in keeping with a significant particulate event near the toilet, with the head of the deceased coming into contact with the toilet," Van der Nest said, speaking loudly and clearly.'

Mangena's testimony:

"After the wound was inflicted to the head, she dropped immediately," he said. "She was in a seated position on top the magazine rack and she just dropped towards the right hand side, whereby the head ended up on top of the toilet seat and the upper body was between the head and the magazine rack."

Thanks, yes I went and watched both of them again and can see how it works now.

 

[Rumpole]

She didn't live long enough to die downstairs with those wounds. JMO

Arterial blood spurt evidence proves her heart was still beating downstairs. She was alive until her heart stopped beating... downstairs.

 

[lisasalinger]

These socks don't appear to have blood on the bottom (although again, I can't say that 100% for sure)

I just can't imagine that these are the feet that were touching the ground when he dragged Reeva out of the toilet and proceeded to lay her on the bathroom ground.

We saw those pools of blood and the arterial spurt. Would he really not have stepped in any of that with these feet?

I would think we'd see blood on the edges of the bottom, and we certainly would see bloody foot prints on the carpeting, right?

I believe he was on the stumps the majority of the time he was in that bathroom. Some of the smearing could have been from his stumps.

 

[LemonMousse]

The point is they sounded almost identical. If by chance the sound carried into Stipp's windows and into his ears, maybe with the wind, they could sound the same to him. Of this point, I am certain.

Problem is, chance doesn't play a role in physics.

If it did, there'd be no such thing as physics.

 

[MeeBee]

Problem is, chance doesn't play a role in physics.

If it did, there'd be no such thing as physics.

You're saying there's no chance that, given the distance of his home and certain possible environmental factors, that the sound of the bat striking the door could have been carried to Stipp's open window? Really? Not even a slight possibility?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

IIRC Burgers' house was 177 mt away .I don't think that they could hear the bats from that distance . I certainly believe what they heard at 03:17 was the gunshots as they well described also bang pause bang bang bang .. Mrs Burger also mentioned that he womens's screams faded away and then stopped with tha last shot..

 

[lisasalinger]

Does anyone know how close Stipp's house is to OP's ? I remember some news on MSM last year was about a witness 50 mt close to Oscars...Not that exactly true of course ...

Approximately 72 meters. Stipp's bedroom directly overlooks Oscar's bathroom windows at the back of his house.