Trial Discussion Thread #14 - 14.03.28, Day 16

[james83]

God I hope this isn't true. Legally, can't be right, surely???

IF TRUE, i think it's certain to say that this would not be allowed in a jury trial anywhere in the world, i.e if she was juror.

 

[Estelle]

At the start of the trial, at the beginning of March, the judge, Thokozile Masipa, swore in two assessors: Janet Henzen-Du-Toit (believed to be the person in hospital today) and Themba Mazibuko.

Media Club South Africa has this helpful FAQ on the role of the assessors:

For the Pistorius trial, Judge Masipa appointed Janet Henzen-du Toit and Themba Mazibuko as her assessors. They are there to help her make a decision. The assessors will sit with Judge Masipa during the proceedings and listen to all the evidence presented to the judge. At the end of the case they will present their opinions to Judge Masipa. However, she is allowed to override them.

On the Legal Brief website, Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal procedure law expert at the University of Pretoria, said the two assessors could overrule the judge when it comes to a verdict on the facts in a majority finding. This means that if the two assessors were to rule in favour of murder, or the judge and one assessor were to rule so, that verdict would be the accepted one. The same would apply if two of them were to rule in favour of an acquittal.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/28/oscar-pistorius-trial-friday-28-march-live

 

[whiterum]

http://citizen.co.za/151019/grieving-mothers-united-by-pain/





I hope both families will see true Justice for their slain loved ones and that these killers get he sentence they truly deserve !!!

Ten years for rape and twenty years for murder at least some justice for the rape and murder of this beautiful, pregnant 18 yr old. Her murderer sentenced this morning in the courtroom next door to the OP trial.

 

[shane13]

.. and my view is that his 'help, help, help' was mocking her .. I obviously don't know if I am right or not but that is my impression and what I can imagine would've happened if it had been a domestic violence situation.

Yes, and I have made several posts in the last few weeks here , and earlier elsewhere, that this fits in with his schadenfreude or sadism that jibed with his joy in watching his passengers squirm for their lives as he drove at 155 mph and tailgated--risking many lives including his own. He was mimicking and mocking her according to the brilliant wiitness that blew up in Roux's face!!

And fits in with my theory of his schadenfreud/sadism as he was about to kill her.

 

[Interested Bystander]

One would expect that there should have been a reserve Assessor. Think of all the inconvenience and expense this will incur to everyone.

I am astonished that there is not assessor cover for illness, death, etc. God forbid, but what if this woman were to die. What would happen then? A retrial?

 

[MeeBee]

Thank you. Regarding ballistics, trajectories and order of shots etc?? Surely those are facts though and all pathologists would arrive at the same conclusion, i.e. 2 +2 = 4

Procedurally, is this normal or exceptional? Thanks

I think the ballistics handled the trajectory and order of shots, though in the us I think the ME would have typically handled the order of shots to the body. The pathologist talked about things like her stomach contents and the nature of the injuries as well as if it would have been normal for Reeva to have screamed after being hit in the hip.

I'd say it's normal for the defense to put on alternative experts whenever they can to rebut the state's experts. These things aren't always an exact science and there can be disagreements sometimes on another's findings.

 

[K.T]

There always seems to be "exceptional circumstances" as far as OP is concerned.

I read that it is a rule that the accused goes first and now he has more time to prepare, does not have to be filmed giving testimony and the Assessor could be married to the brother of another famous Olympian and they have probably mixed in the same social circles. It appears that Natalie could be SA's most famous female Paralympian and OP SA's most famous male Paralympian.

How many other advantages can be be given???

There definitely should have been a reserve assessor, researching and keeping up with the trial as it progressed. Also, in a trial this scrutinized, the public wants to see if corruption from privilege or position, which hampers South Africa will affect the Pistorius trial. Any slight possibility of favoritism is a bad idea. I just read now that they could get a new assessor if they needed to but there would be a longer delay because they would have to read up on the trial.

Plus, in my opinion, being treated as if he is exceptional lead to this entire homicidal mess.

 

[MeeBee]

Look at us sleuthing to pass the time...

 

[Estelle]

I am astonished that there is not assessor cover for illness, death, etc. God forbid, but what if this woman were to die. What would happen then? A retrial?

Yes that is what I have been thinking too. I now think it is a ridiculous system. At least with juries, they have reserves.

 

[Estelle]

There is a lawyer by the name of Janette Henzon-du Toit of Jo'burg endorsing this Neuro-literacy course for lawyers in May last year.

Interestingly, it's billed as 'game-changing discoveries in the fields of brain science, neuro-economics, positive psychology, body/mind awareness and more'

http://www.integrativelaw.co.za/eve...ave-about-neuro-literacy-for-lawyers-seminar/

'

That makes me ask what background do these Assessors have?

If this is the same person as the female Assessor, she might have a degree in law as well as psychology.

 

[MeeBee]

That makes me ask what background do these Assessors have?

If this is the same person as the female Assessor, she must have a degree in law and psychology.

Yeah, you made me wonder too what sort of educational/professional background an assessor would have. I this might be her because there's a picture there of a woman who looks like our assessor. But it's hard to tell because she's usually filmed from so far away!

 

[HauntsForHope]

meh:facepalm:


that's it, that's all i got today.

 

[Estelle]

There is a lawyer by the name of Janette Henzon-du Toit of Jo'burg endorsing this Neuro-literacy course for lawyers in May last year.

Interestingly, it's billed as 'game-changing discoveries in the fields of brain science, neuro-economics, positive psychology, body/mind awareness and more'

http://www.integrativelaw.co.za/eve...ave-about-neuro-literacy-for-lawyers-seminar/

'

I think the Assessor's name has been spelt incorrectly in that article. It should be spelt "Henzen". The person who tweeted about her IMO at least got the spelling correct anyway.

 

[Duchy]

It cannot be .....

 

[zwiebel]

'What influence do the assessors have in deciding Oscar Pistorius's fate?'

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news...rs-have-in-deciding-oscar-pistoriuss-fate.htm

 

[Insp.Dots]

There always seems to be "exceptional circumstances" as far as OP is concerned.

I read that it is a rule that the accused goes first and now he has more time to prepare, does not have to be filmed giving testimony and the Assessor could be married to the brother of another famous Olympian and they have probably mixed in the same social circles. It appears that Natalie could be SA's most famous female Paralympian and OP SA's most famous male Paralympian.

How many other advantages can be be given???

Agreed, it is all quite bizarre isn't it. No wonder people suspect corruption etc. If this was in the UK, I think it would ended up as a retrial maybe.
I feel for Reeva's family, they have been so dignified throughout all of it. A real credit to her. I am starting to wonder if Justice is going to be done......
I hope so

 

[jay-jay]

Since it's gone a bit quieter in here I'd like to just re-post a question I asked last night to see if anyone knows the answer to it, because it's mystified me a bit ..

Another thing I would be grateful for assistance/clarification on please .. for some reason I have it in my mind that when OP brought her downstairs, she was unclothed. Now I have no idea where I have got this notion from because she was clearly wearing the vest top and shorts in the toilet cubicle .. because the bullet holes went through the clothing and corresponded with the parts of her body that got hit .. but I also read that when she was received at the mortuary, she was unclothed and her clothes were provided in a separate bag. I'm not really sure at which point these clothes were removed from her .. and I don't know why I automatically assumed she was unclothed when the doctor arrived (I thought he had stated that in his evidence, but on looking back at it I can see nowhere where he said that). So, just wondering what the actual postion was on this .. was she actually clothed when he brought her downstairs .. or not?

I'm trying to work out who it was who undressed her .. was it OP (and why would he have done that?) or was it the medics and/or investigating team who turned up later. It's a definite that the clothes turned up separately at the mortuary (or at least I'm 99.9% sure it is) .. but why? How? Who by?


*edited to say that I have now found the answer to that question .. see my next post.

 

[jay-jay]

Oh .. I've just managed to find the answer to that here:

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-witnesses-recount-murder-scene-oscar-vomits

Van Rensburg said he was busy with a team handling an armed robbery at another estate when he was informed of the shooting at Silver Woods. He had returned to the station.

He said he then went out to the shooting scene, arriving at about 3.55am and saw an ambulance was already there. He entered the house and, to the left of the stairs, he saw a covered body on the floor. There was a lot of blood around the body and there were towels and black bags around the head.

He was told by paramedics that the person was already dead when they had arrived. He and the paramedic removed the clothes from model Reeva Steenkamp’s body and placed them in an evidence bag.

OK, so that straightens out for me that she was still actually clothed when OP brought her down the stairs and that he hadn't removed them prior to that (i.e. in some attempt to contaminate evidence).

 

[zwiebel]

Here is some more info about the assessors. Unfortunately, google refused to translate it for me.

http://www.beeld.com/nuus/2014-03-03-assessor-het-al-as-regter-diens-gedoen

 

[Interested Bystander]

Since it's gone a bit quieter in here I'd like to just re-post a question I asked last night to see if anyone knows the answer to it, because it's mystified me a bit ..



I'm trying to work out who it was who undressed her .. was it OP (and why would he have done that?) or was it the medics and/or investigating team who turned up later. It's a definite that the clothes turned up separately at the mortuary (or at least I'm 99.9% sure it is) .. but why? How? Who by?

As far as I remember she was wearing a black vest and shorts (white?). I am fairly sure Dr Stipp (neighbour) said she was wearing top and shorts. I think the undressing must have been undertaken by the medics.