Trial Discussion Thread #15

[soozieqtips]

I don't have a theory of any kind re their relationship, except how it ended up. my theory is he shot her, he killed her..

what I am saying, and its not hard to follow is, that Roux and Oscar left themselves wide open to challenge on the matter of how this relationship was going so far south that Reeva ended up with her head blown off on the toilet room tiles.

and Oscar. putting this idiotic little sentence in his statement 'I know reeva was in love too'.. has opened himself up to all and ANY challenge.

he should have kept his mouth shut. simple.

BBM - Yep. I said ages ago that his strange wording sounded defensive, and felt completely out of place in his affidavit when he was supposed to be describing the events that happened that night, not speaking for the dead girlfriend he had just shot! Guess that's why he 'mysteriously' forgot his WhatsApp password!! Couldn't have any evidence at all that theirs wasn't a 'deeply loving' relationship!!

 

[LemonMousse]

It indicates that this was not a healthy relationship as one should never remain in a relationship where one feels scared of their partner. Full stop.

Indeed not. But people do - all the time and for all sorts of reasons. Endless psychological studies have been done to try and understand why.

That Reeva did does not suggest that she didn't feel scared of him sometimes. And if she did, there must have been a reason.

Reeva's motives for staying with someone who scared her are significantly less important than the reasons that she WAS scared. She hasn't killed him, has she? It's the other way around, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[jay-jay]

It indicates that this was not a healthy relationship as one should never remain in a relationship where one feels scared of their partner. Full stop.

Again, this shows a large lack of understanding about how abusive relationships work. You yourself have said that you don't think that 10% 'unhappy/abusive' was significant .. and you can see from Reeva's messages that she is also struggling with the concept that, because 90% (she used that figure in one of her messages) of it is loving, that the rest of it could be so badly wrong. This is what each and every victim of an abusive relationship has to struggle with, and the idea that they themselves might have got it wrong and that they might be somehow 'imagining' the 10% abuse. Which is basically what you are saying by stating that the 10% isn't significant. Well it is significant .. even 1% would be significant, but when you are in the relationship yourself, you just can't believe it is actually happening to you, so you stay in the hope that all the nasty stuff will go away and that that bit of it has all just been a bad dream.

Also, how come you were originally saying that the 4 text conversations relating to real life events, were not particularly significant and yet now, you are saying that they were, and that they were indicative of an unhealthy relationship that the person who feels scared should get out of it? Good to see you're seeing the wood for the trees a bit now though ;-)

 

[Trooper]

I , personally never feel bogged down, actually..

 

[Trooper]

I suppose that those who DO feel bogged down could just .. I dunno. what DOES bogged down feel like??

 

[MeeBee]

I suppose that those who DO feel bogged down could just .. I dunno. what DOES bogged down feel like??

An awful lot like posting in this thread does, I'd imagine.

 

[LemonMousse]

I will concede to you that the messages indicate there are some real issues in this relationship.

The problem I have with all the conclusions about abuse and particularly domestic homicide is that this was a 3-4 month old relationship; they didn't live together or even spend that much time together it seems; we see no evidence of escalating abuse; and we see no "cycle"of abuse.

If those things were present then I'd agree that might be something relevant to consider in evaluating the case.

But I think it is just flat out wrong and even insulting to DV victims to jump to a conclusion that a few messages, with no context, clearly proves this was an abusive relationship and it makes intentional homicide more likely.

Domestic violence and abuse is a very complex dynamic - and when we talk about escalating abuse and a cycle of violence we're talking about a whole pattern of behaviors over a longer period of time - a period of tension building, leading to an incident of violence, followed by regret and remorseful promises of better behavior, leading a victim to believe the violence is behind them, only to lead to another cycle of the same pattern of abuse.

It is very very hard to maintain that kind of dynamic between abuser and victim if the victim is not isolated and always accessible to the abuser - if they don't live together or share resources or have any kind of dependency on each other that allows an abuser to maintain power and control of the victim.

The fact that Reeva was "walking on eggshells" and fearful of Oscar's reactions is definitely not a good sign, but without any context it's impossible to know whether that says more about Oscar or Reeva. And under the circumstances as they were, I just do not see the evidence that Oscar was engaging in the spectrum of behaviors we normally associate with abusers.

There's really no indicator that he was pathologically jealous or tried to control Reeva's social relationships or activities. He seemed to have no problem with her having lunch with her ex. Given that, It's really hard to see a pervasively and obsessively jealous boyfriend

I have seen absolutely no one suggesting this was a classically "abusive" relationship. No one knows what kind of relationship it was - no one was there to see it but them.

What these texts show - and it's ALL they show - is that things happened that scared Reeva. She may have been emotionally scared rather than physically scared, but unsettled by him she certainly was.

And she was right to be.

 

[jay-jay]

I think we can safely assume that those messages have been scrutinized by the state exert witness and lawyers. They know exactly what they're looking for.

They've also seen more DA cases than we'll ever hear about.

Well, that is what I can't make out because Moller said in court that he himself went through them and because there were so many pages, he himself pulled out the ones which he thought would be relevant. He isn't an expert witness or a lawyer, whose specialised field is domestice abuse and violence .. his is an IT expert, and that is all. This is why it concerns me that he did not pull out all the messages that would've been relevant to the case .. because that is not his field of expertise .. he is a technical bod. He definitely did say himself that he personally had gone through the messages and pulled out the ones he thought were relevant to the case. I don't even think anyone else has actually seen the whole whatever thousand pages it was, but him (and of course Reeva and OP).

 

[MeeBee]

I have seen absolutely no one suggesting this was a classically "abusive" relationship. No one knows what kind of relationship it was - no one was there to see it but them.

What these texts show - and it's ALL they show - is that things happened that scared Reeva. She may have been emotionally scared rather than physically scared, but unsettled by him she certainly was.

And she was right to be.

BBM: really?

 

[Trooper]

BBM - Yep. I said ages ago that his strange wording sounded defensive, and felt completely out of place in his affidavit when he was supposed to be describing the events that happened that night, not speaking for the dead girlfriend he had just shot! Guess that's why he 'mysteriously' forgot his WhatsApp password!! Couldn't have any evidence at all that theirs wasn't a 'deeply loving' relationship!!

I couldn't get over ROUX letting it slide..


really really degraded workmanship..

 

[Cherwell]

No one's glossing over abuse or minimizing bad behavior just because we don't think the text messages are evidence of an intentional homicide. Can we stop setting up that straw man please?

This in itself is a straw man. IMO.

The text conversations (not just texts, as you are still failing to acknowledge) are not standalone evidence, and no one is suggesting that. To ascertain the facts, one looks at all the factors in play. The conversations are an insight into the nature and current state of the relationship.

 

[soozieqtips]

Domestic violence and abuse is a very complex dynamic - and when we talk about escalating abuse and a cycle of violence we're talking about a whole pattern of behaviors over a longer period of time - a period of tension building, leading to an incident of violence, followed by regret and remorseful promises of better behavior, leading a victim to believe the violence is behind them, only to lead to another cycle of the same pattern of abuse.

~snipped~

BBM - As OP shot Reeva dead fairly soon into the relationship, we didn't get to see more escalation of abuse as time went on, because OP had already murdered her before there could be a longer period of time for the abuse to escalate. But the pattern had already begun. As evidenced by the text messages he tried to ensure were never heard at his trial for murder.

 

[jay-jay]

quoted from the first link that came up on a google search: "Captain Moller also said that he would describe "90 per cent" of the messages as normal and "loving"." (Daily Mirror)


How is Captain Moller qualified to say that? As I said, he is an IT expert, not a relationships expert.

 

[Trooper]

when a woman ends up dead ... shot four times.. in a toilet in a mans home .. EVERYTHING is relevant..

 

[Interested Bystander]

I will concede to you that the messages indicate there are some real issues in this relationship.

The problem I have with all the conclusions about abuse and particularly domestic homicide is that this was a 3-4 month old relationship; they didn't live together or even spend that much time together it seems; we see no evidence of escalating abuse; and we see no "cycle"of abuse.

If those things were present then I'd agree that might be something relevant to consider in evaluating the case.

But I think it is just flat out wrong and even insulting to DV victims to jump to a conclusion that a few messages, with no context, clearly proves this was an abusive relationship and it makes intentional homicide more likely.

Domestic violence and abuse is a very complex dynamic - and when we talk about escalating abuse and a cycle of violence we're talking about a whole pattern of behaviors over a longer period of time - a period of tension building, leading to an incident of violence, followed by regret and remorseful promises of better behavior, leading a victim to believe the violence is behind them, only to lead to another cycle of the same pattern of abuse.

It is very very hard to maintain that kind of dynamic between abuser and victim if the victim is not isolated and always accessible to the abuser - if they don't live together or share resources or have any kind of dependency on each other that allows an abuser to maintain power and control of the victim.

The fact that Reeva was "walking on eggshells" and fearful of Oscar's reactions is definitely not a good sign, but without any context it's impossible to know whether that says more about Oscar or Reeva. And under the circumstances as they were, I just do not see the evidence that Oscar was engaging in the spectrum of behaviors we normally associate with abusers.

There's really no indicator that he was pathologically jealous or tried to control Reeva's social relationships or activities. He seemed to have no problem with her having lunch with her ex. Given that, It's really hard to see a pervasively and obsessively jealous boyfriend

I do have to disagree with the non escalating violence element of your comments. The fact that the problems they were undoubtedly had in their relationship seem all to have occurred in the prior 4 weeks before her murder.

I found his agreement to her seeing her ex a bit surprising but I guess I found, in my own mind, a reason for this. I agree I have no evidence for the following but I think he may well have been on his best behaviour after the last angry, jealous outburst.

 

[Val1]

This in itself is a straw man. IMO.

The text conversations (not just texts, as you are still failing to acknowledge) are not standalone evidence, and no one is suggesting that. To ascertain the facts, one looks at all the factors in play. The conversations are an insight into the nature and current state of the relationship.

That there are witnesses that can attest to at least some of the events that precipitated RS's long messages need to be considered as well. Context.

 

[jay-jay]

-- coupled with a woman who has had troubled relationships in the past, is hyper sensitive to criticism and excruciatingly focused on appearances and public perception.

Ah yes, there we have it .. the old 'she must've been imagining it' thing.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I couldn't get over ROUX letting it slide..


really really degraded workmanship..

Yes there were a lot of over empathised things in that statement .
Another one of them being how exceptional dark it was yet him still being able to run around. Being scared and vulnerable but not being security conscious .

 

[zwiebel]

Recent article here, don't know if it's been posted. It left me with a bit of a funny feeling actually - seems to gloss over that OP admits he shot Reeva and there is a dead person involved here? Or maybe that's just me missing something, I don't know. I'm not familiar with this reporter's work.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/oscar-pistorius-fall-from-grace/

 

[Trooper]

Ah yes, there we have it .. the old 'she must've been imagining it' thing.

it was only a matter of time,Jay..


next it will be ' she deserved it'...