Trial Discussion Thread #15

[Cherwell]

Imo I believe the argument started downstairs. The broken lounge window. Did he throw something at her , missed, or she ran and it hit the window?

Reeva ran upstairs, locking the bedroom door behind her. He went mental trying to get in. At some point, I think Reeva has picked up the metal baseball bat by the bedroom door, inside. He'd managed to open the door fractionally and she's wedged the baseball bat between the door's inside edge and wall. The marks account for a tapering, rounded object.

He was still forcing entry, wanting her to "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE" She then picked up the air rifle beside the door and shot to warn him off. He's not best pleased at being fired at and yells "I'LL CALL THE POLICE, REEVA"

He's getting in, she runs to bathroom, opens window,yelling "HELP" then dashes inside cubicle. She's standing being door, pulling it closed, hand on handle. The rest is devastating history.

My vision of the scenario that occurred that fateful night :-(

I can see some of this, but why would she run upstairs?

It would make sense to run out of the house .... would she have been able to open the front door? :waitasec:

:idea: Maybe her bag with her car keys was upstairs ... ooh, somebody else had that sort of trouble chez Oscar, didn't she hoh:

 

[TorisMom003]

Someone help me out here. Is OP's story that he carried Reeva downstairs to put her in the car and that he had his fingers in her mouth while carrying her downstairs? If so, how is that possible? I can't picture that for some reason.

 

[sorrell skye]

If the tile came off from cricket bat vibrations traveling through the door, then OP definitely over paid for the house. Wouldn't also the partial tiles on the other side of the door, next to the shower, have also come off then? To bad we can't see that side in the picture shown.

MOO

It could be shoddy workmanship. My niece used to live in a luxury hi-rise building in Houston, TX - complete with security entrance, concierge, fitness center, spa, you name it. $3000 a month for a 2-bedroom apartment 9 years ago.

It was a lovely apartment, a lovely building. But the workmanship was inferior in certain areas. When I visited, the drawer fronts in the kitchen were completely falling off after just a few months of my niece living there - and my niece doesn't even cook, so everything in her kitchen was rarely used or touched. Conversely, I live in a 1920 bungalow and all my kitchen drawers are still intact lol!

I think a lot of modern residential construction is built cheaply.

I think it's possible the wall tiles fell off when OP hit the door with the cricket bat, due to reverberations through the wall, if the glue holding the tiles was faulty or sparse.

I would expect to see much smaller pieces of the wall tiles if OP had struck those tiles with the cricket bat.

 

[Cherwell]

Well, there was something about that 'hurdle' Reeva mentioned in a text earlier that day .. and she had then gone on to say that he might need the company of his family that night. We still don't know what that hurdle was or if it was significant in starting some kind of disagreement between them .. but those text communications that day sounded a bit odd, to say the least.

Yes, it could be very enlightening to know what that was about.

 

[jay-jay]

Originally Posted by DebinGA View Post
Someone yesterday posted that perhaps OP used the end of the bat to draw the keys on the floor near RS close enough for him to reach through, retrieve them, and open the door.

I haven't followed the door evidence enough to offer anything worthwhile.This seems plausible and a likely scenario. It would explain the blood on the bat better. Thank you.

That is if he did actually retrieve the keys from the floor, and not just something he made up .. as I posted a while back, I'm extremely dubious about the keys ever having been on the floor, or why they would even have ended up there as there is no reason, that I can see, that explains why they would've been there.

 

[sorrell skye]

Exactly. Once again, actions speak louder than words.

His words: "I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime".

His actions: sleeps with balcony doors open and courteously leaves ladders out for intruders.

Heh - OP's words don't square at all with his actions, do they?

 

[jay-jay]

* RS had told OP she would be visiting a former boyfriend on Feb. 13.

* OP had taken some unknown blow that prompted RS to msg him that afternoon [NBC]
“you’re a nice guy. “
“You are an amazing person with so many blessings,” she writes, “and you are more than cared for. Your health and future monetary blessings far out way this hurdle I can promise u that.”

I wish we could get a better idea of what was being said from his side of these conversations .. most of them seem to be all messages sent to him by her and we get very little coming back from him .. I can't make out whether he is phoning her inbetween times and filling in the missing bits. Roux made some suggestion that Reeva may have deleted some of his messages .. but I don't really see why she would've done that, it's more likely they spoke on the phone in between some of these text conversations and why some of them seem a bit disjointed and with only half a conversation being revealed.

 

[jay-jay]

way back. when this first happened.. I thought it must have been an enormous catalyst....but as time went on, I have come round to thinking, he didn't need an enormous catalyst to set him off.. could have been anything.. her sandals on the wrong side, didn't pass the salt quick enough.. didn't keep to the right side in the passage.. anything.. who knows?

Yep, that's exactly what I thought too, Trooper .. I was wondering if, when they had had a light meal earlier that evening (not the 'Thursday'/Valentine's Day one which she never got to make) that she might've put the peas on the wrong part of his plate or sommat.

 

[jay-jay]

Those broken tiles were already on the bathroom floor before the toilet door was removed. If you look to the left of the toilet door, you can see the bathroom scale, as well as a lot of debris that looks like broken tiles. Based on this photo, I don't think the broken tiles were the result of removing the toilet door.

http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-leaked-in-oscar-pistorius-case-2013-5

My god that's one heck of a lot of damage then, if that had nothing to do with investigators removing the door

 

[steveml]

Updated, you say? Not recently, unless I'm missing something.

"At writing hereof we are still months away from any trial in this matter, and we assume a lot of new evidence will emerge in this matter which could easily sway this matter in favour of either of the Prosecution or Defence team."

(There's that name Du Toit again! funny that it's so common in SA, isn't it French in origin?)

Yep, the page is an old one, but that page link and a couple of others weren't available last time I visited the site. There was just some info about the case.

In my previous post where I referred to the page I specifically mentioned how it simply explains the charge information regarding the case. I'm quite sure some would find this helpful.

As you'll also see I didn't mention anything about the attorney's opinion on the case, as people will think for themselves on that score.

 

[jay-jay]

Murdering a housemate and then claiming you thought it was an intruder is the oldest and most often used excuse there is!

Then, there was another case where child was found on someone's computer. He said he left the computer on and when he got back the cat has found some child sites. The cat did it !

It's sometimes amazing how a defendant and their legal representatives can come into court with ludicrous excuses.

It's astonishing just how quickly such excuses can be made up too, ime.

 

[sorrell skye]

Imo I believe the argument started downstairs. The broken lounge window. Did he throw something at her , missed, or she ran and it hit the window?

Reeva ran upstairs, locking the bedroom door behind her. He went mental trying to get in. At some point, I think Reeva has picked up the metal baseball bat by the bedroom door, inside. He'd managed to open the door fractionally and she's wedged the baseball bat between the door's inside edge and wall. The marks account for a tapering, rounded object.

He was still forcing entry, wanting her to "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE" She then picked up the air rifle beside the door and shot to warn him off. He's not best pleased at being fired at and yells "I'LL CALL THE POLICE, REEVA"

He's getting in, she runs to bathroom, opens window,yelling "HELP" then dashes inside cubicle. She's standing being door, pulling it closed, hand on handle. The rest is devastating history.

My vision of the scenario that occurred that fateful night :-(

BBM

I think if Reeva had used the air rifle, it probably wouldn't have been found neatly leaning against the sunglasses display case near the bedroom door. If it had been picked up & used by Reeva that night, I would expect the air rifle to have been found in some haphazard fashion somewhere in the master suite.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

The way the air rifle appears in the above photos suggests to me that it hadn't been used by anyone that night.

In chaotic situations, items generally don't get placed neatly - they tend to be strewn about.

 

[Viper]

It's astonishing just how quickly such excuses can be made up too, ime.

The "intruder" excuse is what I'd go with too! Or the tried and true "she committed suicide" excuse, or perhaps the old "the gun went off while I was cleaning it" story. Oops! somehow the gun fired 4 times, so the gun was absolutely defective, Ma Lady. lease:

 

[steveml]

Imo I believe the argument started downstairs. The broken lounge window. Did he throw something at her , missed, or she ran and it hit the window?

Reeva ran upstairs, locking the bedroom door behind her. He went mental trying to get in. At some point, I think Reeva has picked up the metal baseball bat by the bedroom door, inside. He'd managed to open the door fractionally and she's wedged the baseball bat between the door's inside edge and wall. The marks account for a tapering, rounded object.

He was still forcing entry, wanting her to "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE" She then picked up the air rifle beside the door and shot to warn him off. He's not best pleased at being fired at and yells "I'LL CALL THE POLICE, REEVA"

He's getting in, she runs to bathroom, opens window,yelling "HELP" then dashes inside cubicle. She's standing being door, pulling it closed, hand on handle. The rest is devastating history.

My vision of the scenario that occurred that fateful night :-(

Interesting theory. If Reeva had used the air rifle there would likely be prints available.

OP could have cleaned these, but that's another job he would need to have done in quite a short space of time.

 

[Viper]

BBM

I think if Reeva had used the air rifle, it probably wouldn't have been found neatly leaning against the sunglasses display case near the bedroom door. If it had been picked up & used by Reeva that night, I would expect the air rifle to have been found in some haphazard fashion somewhere in the master suite.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/

The way the air rifle appears in the above photos suggests to me that it hadn't been used by anyone that night.

In chaotic situations, items generally don't get placed neatly - they tend to be strewn about.

Too hard for me to bold using a mobile phone. But regarding the "tidy" placement of the air gun: Most folks do believe that OP fabricated the intruder story, so it would be natural for him (to at the least) tidy up the air gun before others (police) arrive in to the bedroom.

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't think the broken window in the downstairs lounge occurred on the night Reeva was killed.

Van Staden testified that there was no broken glass on the ground.

If the window had been broken that night, there would have been broken glass on the ground.

I think the damage to the lounge window raises questions.

At the very least, it makes me wonder about possible prior violent episodes.

I don't think OP would have had enough time to go outside and clean up broken glass before carrying Reeva downstairs as Stander, Stander's daughter, Baba, and Dr. Stipp arrived.

 

[whiterum]

bbm - Don't forget what he said he shouted as he entered the passage to the bathroom (hmm, just where do those exclamation marks belong...).

"Get out of my house Reeva call the police"

Then he shouts again "Reeva phone the police " after the shots. He appears to be psychic since he knew right away that she had not already done so the first time. Oh but of course he knew, having just blasted her with four black talons through the toilet door!

 

[SeekingJana]

I was once with a man who seems to be a lot like OP. I was very young and very trusting. He almost killed me within 2 months of dating me.

My ex BF was very smart. He was also cocky in most ways but he, too, had a physical problem ( not a congenital handicap) that he tried desperately to keep hidden. He was repulsed by what he saw as a flaw marring his otherwise extremely handsome appearance. He also liked and could afford a flashy expensive lifestyle. He bought me a Mercedes convertible while we were dating. A few weeks later, he tried to run over me in a parking lot with the same car. Psycho.

He was into collecting guns. ( Not sure if OP collected guns but he had a habit of waving them around in public and in his car).
He had a huge safe built into the basement floor of his new house. He spent thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of dollars on very rare unfired special edition Colts and so forth. He had a custom made shotgun which he used for skeet shooting that had multiple barrels of different sizes. He won trophies for shooting.

This man tried to kill me about a week before we were to get married because in his warped mind, I had " betrayed" him by listening to some very serious things his best friend had to tell me. His best friend called me while he was out of town on business with some " very private" info which would definitely have been publicly damaging to the man. He didn't go after his friend, a large male, who knew what ALL of the secrets were, he went after me, a very small frame young woman for answering my own phone. I listened to his friend, because again, huge " secrets" were told that were true. I needed to know what I was getting into. ( I got OUT).

The day he found out that I knew his dirty big secrets, he threw me across furniture and I smashed into a wall. I was thrown to the floor, then dragged by my hair along the carpet. He was hitting my head with his fists from one side and then the other. He was hitting me and cursing me the entire time. He was in a blind rage. I didn't dare move or speak. I believe he would have shot me in an instant if I had done anything until I saw a clear escape as we moved to a doorway. I was younger and faster and a lot more scared so I could run faster. I ran out and got help from the police.

My ex didn't respect women. He had been my Government and Economics teacher when I was a Sr. in HS years earlier and he didn't respect the girls in his classes then. I had forgotten much of this until a former classmate reminded me not too long ago. He picked one small cheerleader up and threw her around the room, yelling school cheers. He tried to look up skirts, using his hands on our legs. He looked down our tops when he came up behind us, walking around his classroom. He played with our hair during our exams, when we had to concentrate. He stood in the doorway of his classroom at free time and class changes to watch the girls bend over at the water fountain just across the hall from his doorway. He seduced a student a year older than me and got the school principal to allow her to help him in his film darkroom. ( No one knew that there was sex going on. I've heard it from both of them since).

But the things were: Ego and Rage. I think there is a type of man who has extreme ego conflicts. I think OP has because of his legs, and I know why my ex did. There's also an inflated ego component fighting to stay on top- The " macho man" syndrome. with OP, it was because he had won fame and acclaim and I guess money for his running.
With my ex, it was his extremely prestigious government position. He had charisma and he had an extraordinary position created for him in our government.

I think both men had paranoia and also hair-trigger tempers. My ex was very paranoid, mostly related to me and my actions when I was with him. I'm sure this was a long standing pattern for him.
I think OP also had a lot of paranoia and also the same hair trigger rage type of temper.

When certain personality traits and anger combines in some people like this, they want their own pain to stop more than they want anything else in the world. Some kill themselves. Some kill ( or try to kill, or threaten to kill) the woman at their side.. You know, the one they said they love and want and cherish so much. The kind of obsession that brings death.

As a therapist, I would sum it up thusly: A pathological lack of ego boundaries and impulse control. They weren't born this way because their IQs and ability to understand concepts is intact..

JMO.. We probably all know someone with some of these characteristics but it is rare to find several extremely destructive forces in so many areas of one person's personality in the absence of Anti-Social Personality disorder ( also known as a psychopath or sociopath in societal terms). Neither of these men appear to fit the criteria for Anti-Social Personality disorder. They do have a rage disorder under a certain set of circumstances.

 

[Viper]

I don't think the broken window in the downstairs lounge occurred on the night Reeva was killed.

Van Staden testified that there was no broken glass on the ground.

If the window had been broken that night, there would have been broken glass on the ground.

I think the damage to the lounge window raises questions.

At the very least, it makes me wonder about possible prior violent episodes.

I don't think OP would have had enough time to go outside and clean up broken glass before carrying Reeva downstairs as Stander, Stander's daughter, Baba, and Dr. Stipp arrived.

Thanks Sorrel. I am leaning towards it being significant in some important way, because Mr. Nel took so much time getting details about it from the police testimony put in to evidence along with the photos of it.

This broken window is IMO a hint at where the events that night took a turn for the worse. If not then it definitely means something important or we would not even know about it, JMO. :smile:

 

[Gryffindor]

Thanks for comments re my post of the night in question. Just trying to piece everything together. As he'd everything else bloomin locked, I suspect he did have the front door locked too. Oh actually, he said he opened the front door to be able to take Reeva out, after the alleged calls he made. Wonder if he'd to unlock and open? Although, she might not have headed out and just went to get her things as I'm sure she didn't expect him to actually shoot her :-(

I'm sure he'd have placed the gun back in position. Nipped upstairs while Dr Stipp was present???