Trial Discussion Thread #15

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  • #561
I still think there is confusion over what premeditation actually means in this case.

Nel explained - "knew there was a person behind the door, pointed the gun and shot".

It does NOT mean that OP spent any time thinking, "Right, I'm going to kill Reeva". I, for one, don't think he did. I think he lost control for a matter of seconds and shot. He probably picked it up in the first place to scare her.

So all this hoo ha about whether theirs was abusive is somewhat beside the point. Anyone can see red and lose it. But a dead woman in a toilet is rather more likely to happen when you have an irresponsible, emotionally immature gun nut involved. That's why the texts matter. They tell us a little about who OP is - more relevant in some respects than what his relationship with Reeva was like.
 
  • #562
Ah yes, there we have it .. the old 'she must've been imagining it' thing.

Reminds me of that old blame game phrase, "a woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man with his pants down".
 
  • #563
  • #564
Actually, I take that back about the article. That journalist does state 'before any facts were known'.

As though Reeva being dead and OP admitting he shot her isn't a fact? That's what made me uneasy.
 
  • #565
No one's glossing over abuse or minimizing bad behavior just because we don't think the text messages are evidence of an intentional homicide. Can we stop setting up that straw man please?

Whereas I fully agree that the text messages are not evidence of intentional homicide, they are evidence of OP's history of (at least occasional) outbursts of anger when Reeva acts in a manner he does not approve of. This is hardly a straw man, because it does demonstrate friction in the relationship and also that OP acted out in public (in outbursts that meant he did not have much emotional control) in ways that might lead to violence. Whether or not OP was abusive, there is evidence that he was controlling and unpredictable. We can also see that Reeva's role was to soothe his anger and work hard not to hurt his feelings. Not a straw man, and when combined with other evidence, important to determining whether OP's personality was prone to acting out in anger. Just speculatin'
 
  • #566
I still think there is confusion over what premeditation actually means in this case.

Nel explained - "knew there was a person behind the door, pointed the gun and shot".

It does NOT mean that OP spent any time thinking, "Right, I'm going to kill Reeva". I, for one, don't think he did. I think he lost control for a matter of seconds and shot. He probably picked it up in the first place to scare her.

So all this hoo ha about whether theirs was abusive is somewhat beside the point. Anyone can see red and lose it. But a dead woman in a toilet is rather more likely to happen when you have an irresponsible, emotionally immature gun nut involved. That's why the texts matter. They tell us a little about who OP is - more relevant in some respects than what his relationship with Reeva was like.

That's not really premeditation it's a crime of passion, by definition.
 
  • #567
Yep, it seemed that way. They handed over what looked like the pages of the messages that were read out, and a larger stack of printouts, which I presume were all the remaining messages.

OK, following on from my previous post about the messages, I have just read this and am glad to hear it is the whole lot which has been passed over, not just the ones which Captain Moller thought was relevant to the case. That's a relief! Someone's got a bloody hard job on their hands though, reading all that lot ..
 
  • #568
  • #569
Recent article here, don't know if it's been posted. It left me with a bit of a funny feeling actually - seems to gloss over that OP admits he shot Reeva and there is a dead person involved here? Or maybe that's just me missing something, I don't know. I'm not familiar with this reporter's work.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/oscar-pistorius-fall-from-grace/

I had read that article before, Zwi.. its not easy to find out much about Kimberly Beller..


one of the things she does say is that Oscar is in an unknown location in hiding.. well. hell. I hope not his bail specifically says he is to stay at Uncle Arnolds..
 
  • #570
Ah yes, there we have it .. the old 'she must've been imagining it' thing.
It's a relationship. i.e. more than one.

To get any idea of how that relationship worked it's only logical to look at both sides.

If anyone suggested she imagined it or deserved it, it's a non-sequitur, and not worth a comment.
 
  • #571
Recent article here, don't know if it's been posted. It left me with a bit of a funny feeling actually - seems to gloss over that OP admits he shot Reeva and there is a dead person involved here? Or maybe that's just me missing something, I don't know. I'm not familiar with this reporter's work.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/03/oscar-pistorius-fall-from-grace/

Yes, that's a ridiculous piece.

Everyone loved him before, now they are all saying what a bad temper he had!

Well, such is celebrity.

Look at the Jimmy Savile debacle here in the UK. Famous man, beloved of the nation (apparently) did oh so much for charity. No sooner was he cold in his grave then endless people came out to tell us what he prolific child abuser he was.

People keep quiet about the bad behaviour celebrities - always have, always will.
 
  • #572
Reminds me of that old blame game phrase, "a woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man with his pants down".

:floorlaugh:
 
  • #573
Yes there were a lot of over empathised things in that statement .
Another one of them being how exceptional dark it was yet him still being able to run around. Being scared and vulnerable but not being security conscious .
He also said he thought the 'intruder or intruders' had entered the bathroom. After he murdered the first 'intruder' did he go to look for any other ones? In his heightened state of 'fear and terror' did it occur to him to check elsewhere? It did not. I think his affidavit is 70% lies, 20% exaggeration, and 10% truth, the truth being that he did kill someone, he did use a cricket bat at some point, and he did make calls on his phone. I am looking forward to Nel grilling him on each and every single point of his affidavit.
 
  • #574
I , personally never feel bogged down, actually..

Absolutely, and seeing as it is something absolutely pivotal to this case, then I don't see how or why we should avoid discussing it .. whatever standpoint you might take on it.
 
  • #575
  • #576
He also said he thought the 'intruder or intruders' had entered the bathroom. After he murdered the first 'intruder' did he go to look for any other ones? In his heightened state of 'fear and terror' did it occur to him to check elsewhere? It did not. I think his affidavit is 70% lies, 20% exaggeration, and 10% truth, the truth being that he did kill someone, he did use a cricket bat at some point, and he did make calls on his phone. I am looking forward to Nel grilling him on each and every single point of his affidavit.

bbm - Don't forget what he said he shouted as he entered the passage to the bathroom (hmm, just where do those exclamation marks belong...).

"Get out of my house Reeva call the police"
 
  • #577
That's not really premeditation it's a crime of passion, by definition.

In the US and the UK, not SA. This point has been made over and over and over.
 
  • #578
Yes, that's a ridiculous piece.

Everyone loved him before, now they are all saying what a bad temper he had!

Well, such is celebrity.

Look at the Jimmy Savile debacle here in the UK. Famous man, beloved of the nation (apparently) did oh so much for charity. No sooner was he cold in his grave then endless people came out to tell us what he prolific child abuser he was.

People keep quiet about the bad behaviour celebrities - always have, always will.
It is sad but true . People are frightened to speak out for fear of being ridiculed sued or just plain not believed .
I read one news reported that OP knocked someone's dog down and it was very severely injured ( don't know whether it is true or not ) ,he allegedly then calmly got out of his car ,shot the dog dead and drove off without speaking a word to the owner .
The owner didn't feel he could do anything about it at the time .
OP would have just claimed he was being kind which might be true as far as the animal is concerned but to not speak to the owner or show compassion says a lot about his character .JMOO
 
  • #579
Good morning All! It will take me half a day to catch up, but did you hear the news? OPs bedroom doors were barged though so they could not be securely locked, it would just take a pull on the "locked" doors to open them, no key needed. So he and Reeva could have easily escaped. Oh, and OP lied about that in his Affidavit!

How many years in prison do you think he will get for Premeditated Murder? I'm thinking the judge gives him a break and just goes with the mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years!

:party:
 
  • #580
Hello,
I just wanted to compare parts of the later March 2014 Plea Explanation next to February 2013 Bail Affidavit, investigate the differences. There are some fascinating changes in tone and wording between the two statements. I’m not going into linguistics in this post but it is great to read. Thanks to the other poster (forgot who) who put up an interesting link to a Pistorius Bail Statement Analysis earlier in the weekend.
Here is link to another example of linguistic Bail Statement Analysis, generally most analysis concludes that there appear to be deceptive areas in the statement.
http://www.linguisticstatementanalysis.com/SOTM/Pistorius.pdf

I'm going to add, to be very clear, these are more than minor changes between plea statement and bail affidavit and it was relevant to wonder what the defense team and prosecution will do with these shifts.

Comparison of the 2104 Plea Explanation and the relevant parts of the 2013 Bail Affidavit noting the differences.
1.
PE: During the early morning hours of the morning I brought two fans in.
BA: During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains.

Changed to two fans now, instead of one.

2.
PE: I had shortly before spoken to Reeva who was in bed beside me.
BA: ----

No mention on speaking to Reeva in bail affidavit, this is an addition and definitely changes circumstances.

3.
PE: Unbeknownst to me, Reeva had gone to the toilet in the bathroom at the time of the when I had brought in the fans, closed the sliding doors and drew the blinds and the curtains.
BA: ---

No mention in bail statement that the exact time period Pistorius is bringing the one or two fans and drawing the blinds, was when Reeva got up from the bed to go to the toilet. Important to note: Pistorius is now saying she’s awake when he is because he’s just added into his statement that he had just talked to her in bed. She is also, at his ‘fan delivery time, making the room pitch dark time,’ going to use the toilet/going to the bathroom.

4.
PE: I heard the bathroom window sliding open.
BA: I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

Pistorius has now added in that there was a bathroom window sliding-open noise, made by Reeva.

This is odd. He has just said in the newer plea explanation that she was in the toilet and yet she’s now not yet at the toilet but sliding open the window after he’s finished his activities. He has now changed his story to Reeva been spoken to, Reeva sliding the bathroom window open, Reeva going to the toilet to presumably urinate etc. at the time when he was on the balcony/blind excursion.
(Note: I’ll talk further about how the timing of that whole sequence doesn’t seem plausible. Reeva’s on the way to the toilet but she’s not seen by Pistorius, even though he’s moving around with doing many things and he knows think she’s awake because he’s just talked with her. Yet Reeva is not yet even in the toilet but in the pitch dark, perfectly opening a window at the exactly the right time to make him extraordinarily scared and get his gun.)

5.
PE: I believed intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which were not fitted with burglar bars.
I approached the bathroom, armed with my firearm, so as to defend Reeva and I. At the time I believed Reeva was still in bed.

BA: I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.
I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

In the bail affidavit he talks about “screaming words” at the intruder/s “to get out of my house” and for Reeva to phone the police. No mention of this in the shorter plea explanation.

6.
PE: I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars.
I approached the bathroom, armed with my firearm, so as to defend Reeva and I. At that time I believed Reeva was still in the bed.

BA: I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom.

In bail affidavit he came to investigate a noise and ‘noticed’ that bathroom window was open. In the later plea explanation it’s quite a different mindset shift in that the very reason he went to the bathroom is now to investigate the sliding window noise made by Reeva. It mean’s saying ‘noticed’ is an incorrect term, he is now ‘confirming’ the window is open.

(According to Pistorius, this is the time Reeva knew there was someone else in the house as in the bail affidavit he said had screamed at them and at her to phone the police. Obviously at no time did she say to him I’m in the toilet/I have no phone/I’m not calling the police/press the panic button)

7.
PE: The discharging of my firearm was precipitated by a noise in the toilet, which I, in my fearful state, knowing that I was on my stumps, unable to run away or properly defend myself physically, believed to be the intruder/s coming out of the toilet to attack Reeva and me.

BA:
I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police.

No mention in the plea about the bedroom door being locked and that as the reason why he more fearful and in greater danger.


Pistorius affidavit said he was fearful that when the "intruder/s" "came out" from the toilet he would be attacked, but in the PE he says he panics when he thinks the intruders are "coming" out of the toilet. This could be significant because he has changed a fear for the future into a present one. If he thinks he/they are already emerging from the toilet instead of that they will do so soon, the ruse of language shift adds immediacy to his actions and makes it seem as if the "noise" of an imaginary intruder is more urgent.

8.
BA: She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding...(the bail affidavit continues about other actions on the night, the plea explanation does not.)
 
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