Trial Discussion Thread #16

[nastasya]

Got it! 2nd or 3rd in the arm, one missed. Then 4th shot. You may have something there, if the sounds of shots fit with those the witness' heard.

If OP just shot one shot first, then witness might have been awakened by that first shot, but not consciously heard it.

Next bangs are cricket bats trying to get into toilet and Reeva screaming because she's already been shot in the hip and is in agony, and pissed.

OP, by his own account, seem like the type to panic and overreact.

Shot shot - cricket bat hits to door, kicking door - shot shot - silence - cricket bat

 

[Gryffindor]

If OP just shot one shot first, then witness might have been awakened by that first shot, but not consciously heard it.

Next bangs are cricket bats trying to get into toilet and Reeva screaming because she's already been shot in the hip and is in agony, and pissed.

OP, by his own account, seem like the type to panic and overreact.

Shot shot - cricket bat hits to door, kicking door - shot shot - silence - cricket bat

She was pissed?? Don't think she'd been drinking. Been no mention. No reason to shoot someone LOL x

 

[Viper]

I would like to post a link but I am afraid that it may be too graphic. It is a video of a man shot in the head, he died much later, so it shows the huge amount of blood that bleeds out from a headshot in just seconds if the heart is still beating.

Would some of you more veteran members please let me know if posting a link to a graphic video is permissible or not? TIA

 

[patCee]

If OP just shot one shot first, then witness might have been awakened by that first shot, but not consciously heard it.

Next bangs are cricket bats trying to get into toilet and Reeva screaming because she's already been shot in the hip and is in agony, and pissed.

OP, by his own account, seem like the type to panic and overreact.

Shot shot - cricket bat hits to door, kicking door - shot shot - silence - cricket bat

Not sure as I think the witness' heard one shot, pause, then 3 shots in succession. One heard 2 or 3 extra shots if I remember correctly. Be interesting to see what steveml comes up with.

 

[steveml]

He either knew where he was firing, therefore could see, or he didn't. He can't be both.

There is no possible way you could follow a voice from someone's head through a wooden door, ensuring that first you got the hip, and next you got the head. If he's right near to the door he's shooting from the hip which is glaringly inaccurate and if he's further away he's got a line of sight with his arms out and far less chance of 'tracking' someone's voice.

We don't even see this supposed tracking of a voice for a head-shot in many movies (I've not seen it in any), as people wouldn't believe it. Even when Clint Eastwood shot men through saloon doors they made sure he didn't hit everyone in the same place every time. And usually he could see their heads above the doors so he had a far better chance than OP.

He could only realistically guarantee a head shot like that if he could see.

or

He couldn't see therefore the shots were random, and if you like, lucky.

*Although they weren't 'lucky' they were unlucky as Reeva was behind the door.

 

[TorisMom003]

The 60 second call to Netcare is weird! IMO That is not enough time. Time seems to play a role in everything regarding OP fairy tale. He connected to Netcare and told them he shot a woman in the head and arm and hip and then what? They ask for his name and address to dispatch an ambulance, right? No. They ask him if she is breathing, he must have said yes or they would have talked him through CPR. But both the state's expert and OP expert determined that Reeva died in the WC almost immediately. IMO 60 seconds is not enough time for the call to Netcare; I doubt there is a voice recording and I doubt that Netcare told OP to drive her. I believe he called but he hung up on them sometime during the conversation.

For the sake of being exact and precise, the call to Netcare was 66 seconds. But I agree with your post. No way did OP tell them all of Reeva's injuries and the address, OP answer their questions and then have them tell him to bring her on in to the hospital in that short period of time.

MOO

 

[steveml]

My thought on your theory was purposely missing the 2nd shot, aiming into the corner tiles saying if she doesn't stop and let him help her, he will shoot again. He shoots the 2nd warning shot to avoid her but showing he's serious.

Screaming etc continues. 3rd shot. 4th shot :-(

Although in saying all that, the medic stated that the 1st hip shot alone would likely have proved fatal x

Yep, I think when the hip shot is being referred to as fatal it's suggesting that it would have hit arteries and bled out, or the damage would have been too great for survival, as opposed to instant death. It's possible she could have still been screaming, I think.

 

[G.bng]

Nobody testified she died in toilet?

She was incapacitated by having brains blown out, but still breathing and heart still beating ... obviously, with evidence of continued arterial spurts as OP carried her down stairs. Her heart stopped once she was downstairs.

There is no problem with times... provided you do not have to twist things to fit a presumption of guilt.

The two sets of bangs heard by Stipps were gunshots and then bat on door at 3:17.
Makes sense that OP would be on the phone as soon as he dragged body to bathroom at 3:19

No problems with the timeline presented by State witnesses at all. It fits with OP's version perfectly.. and so confirms it. I am sure there will be a lot more confirmation from Defense witnesses.

Not questioning your timings because my idea of the case is that it will be decided on the judge tallying up legal conundrums, however I do seem to recall the expert testifying that the blood down the stairs was blood "dripping" from Reeva's injuries and not from "arterial spurts" which he found in the toilet where the gunshot wounds happened (I can't be 100% sure, but I don't think he even find "arterial spurts" in the bathroom where OP dragged her too). jmo

 

[Cherwell]

She was pissed?? Don't think she'd been drinking. Been no mention. No reason to shoot someone LOL x

Indeed!

Translation note for US members: in the UK 'pissed' means drunk. We use 'pissed off' to describe someone who is annoyed or angry.

'Piss off' can also mean to leave. As in 'he pissed off" (possibly because he was pissed. Or because he was pissed off).

Also used angrily to tell someone to go away: "Piss off!"

 

[steveml]

If OP just shot one shot first, then witness might have been awakened by that first shot, but not consciously heard it.

Next bangs are cricket bats trying to get into toilet and Reeva screaming because she's already been shot in the hip and is in agony, and pissed.

OP, by his own account, seem like the type to panic and overreact.

Shot shot - cricket bat hits to door, kicking door - shot shot - silence - cricket bat

Hmm. That's an interesting one. So are you thinking the noises may not necessarily have been consecutively from the same object (gun/bat/gun/bat) ?

 

[steveml]

Indeed!

Translation note for US members: in the UK 'pissed' means drunk. We use 'pissed off' to describe someone who is annoyed or angry.

'Piss off' can also mean to leave. As in 'he pissed off" (possibly because he was pissed. Or because he was pissed off).

Also used angrily to tell someone to go away: "Piss off!"

Was it something I said? :angel:


:smile:

 

[MeeBee]

The source of the problem was post 120. Meebee quoted Viper, but somehow the quote closer got deleted, and this had a knock-on effect in every post that quoted that conversation.

By "quote closer" I mean this
[ /quote ]
except I have put spaces in to stop it from working!

I don't mean to argue such trivial things but the source of the problem is post #80 when viper quoted me. The problem continued after that as we quoted back and forth.

 

[MeeBee]

I would like to post a link but I am afraid that it may be too graphic. It is a video of a man shot in the head, he died much later, so it shows the huge amount of blood that bleeds out from a headshot in just seconds if the heart is still beating.

Would some of you more veteran members please let me know if posting a link to a graphic video is permissible or not? TIA

If it's just a link I'm pretty sure it's allowed. Just put a graphic warning on it.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't mean to argue such trivial things but the source of the problem is post #80 when viper quoted me. The problem continued after that.

It continued because nobody looked into their previews or edit screens to see what was causing it, and corrected it. I hope my explanation has helped.

 

[Cherwell]

Hmm. That's an interesting one. So are you thinking the noises may not necessarily have been consecutively from the same object (gun/bat/gun/bat) ?

I've always had that in mind as a possibility.

 

[Gryffindor]

Was it something I said? :angel:


:smile:

No no it wasn't you who said Reeva was pissed, Steve haha

 

[nastasya]

Hmm. That's an interesting one. So are you thinking the noises may not necessarily have been consecutively from the same object (gun/bat/gun/bat) ?

Well if we begin with theory that gun shots and cricket bat noises can be confused, then there's no reason that noises had to be consecutive.

We also can deduce that if OP's story is true, witnesses might have been awakened by gunshot noise, but would not have consciously heard it.

If OP accidentally shot Reeva with first shot, then spent several minutes trying to deal with the situation of her being shot and not being able to get in the toilet area, it might fit the evidence.

Shot 1 - hits Reeva's hip
Shot 2 - misses

OP tries to get into bathroom to save Reeva, shouts for help
Cricket bat breaks a door piece out
Reeva is freaking out, says she'll call police
OP panics because she won't stop screaming

Shot 3 - hits Reeva's arm
Shot 4 - hits Reeva's head

Could this fit the evidence, or approximation of the evidence?

 

[Viper]

I disagree. Arterial spray is powerful. The force of blood pressure, even in a faintly beating heart, is very strong. I have seen arterial spray go many feet. The heart, as we all know, can take minutes to die after the brain has died or been injured. Then there's the matter of a rapidly losing blood heart starting and stopping. I believe there actually was arterial spray in the toilet room and in the bathroom. If Reeva was in a certain position for a while, for instance, bent at hips, head in toilet, then all the initial spray could have pooled as opposed to spurting out. It wasn't until Oscar began moving her, and her heart, faintly trying to beat, that the spray began getting all over the walls and the sofa and stuff. There can't be arterial spray unless the heart is beating.

BIB. That is what I am saying. Reeva was dead in the WC, the lack of massive ongoing bleeding is proof of that. So the blood drops as she is moved to the downstairs is from him holding her, forcing blood out of her wounds.

If you would like to actually see the massive amount of blood that bleeds out in just seconds after receiving a headshot - and NOT dying immediately Google: bangkok protester shot in the head liveleak It is the first result on the page here in the US. WARNING THOUGH, THE VIDEO IS VERY GRAPHIC!

 

[Trooper]

Try this as a scenario...


Starting at the shots that killed Reeva.. then work backwards without all of Oscars embroidery, come forward to that exact point again when he fires those shots..


then work forwards, without any of Oscars embroidery again and finish up downstairs in the hallway with Oscars fingers stuck down Reeva's throat, and Dr Stipp putting his first foot in the door.

that is, working backwards.. DELETE ----->the quiet dinner, the yoga, the early bedtime, the fans being on the balcony , lonely and crying to come inside, the curtains being closed, the noise in the bathroom, overwhelming terror , grabbing the gun, shouting get out, get out, Reeva call the police, stomping thru the passage, whirling in front of the closed toilet door... and..

pow.. pause. pow pow pow...

now , work forwards.. DELETE ----->back out of the bathroom, turn, go into the bedroom , have a dawning that Reeva isn't in bed, run back to the bathroom , jiggle at the toilet door, run back into the bedroom , go to the balcony, call for help, put legs on, run back to the toilet door and kick it, run back to the bedroom and put the lights on, grab the cricket bat, go back to the toilet, and hammer it with the bat, pry the panels out , drag Reeva out, phone john standar, phone netcare, run downstairs to open the door, run back upstairs , pick up Reeva and go downstairs to the hallway..

Delete ALL that embroidery and whats left??

 

[Really?]

Does Oscar make mention of when he retrieved his phone or did he have it on him/already in bathroom immediately after the incident? Does he ever explain why Reeva's phone was in the bathroom?

These are the questions I want answers to.....wth?......the phones....why why why would Reeva's phone be in the bathroom? and with the cover off....