Trial Discussion Thread #16

[MeeBee]

BIB. That is what I am saying. Reeva was dead in the WC, the lack of massive ongoing bleeding is proof of that. So the blood drops as she is moved to the downstairs is from him holding her, forcing blood out of her wounds.

If you would like to actually see the massive amount of blood that bleeds out in just seconds after receiving a headshot - and NOT dying immediately Google: bangkok protester shot in the head liveleak It is the first result on the page here in the US. WARNING THOUGH, THE VIDEO IS VERY GRAPHIC!

Yes, the bleeding would continue to be massive, and yes, force on the wounds would push blood out. But not forcefully enough to cause arterial spray blood splatter. It's impossible. The only thing that could do that is the heart beating. The distance of the spray shows that it was the heart doing this, which is why it was attributed as arterial spray by the blood splatter expert.

 

[Gryffindor]

Try this as a scenario...


Starting at the shots that killed Reeva.. then work backwards without all of Oscars embroidery, come forward to that exact point again when he fires those shots..


then work forwards, without any of Oscars embroidery again and finish up downstairs in the hallway with Oscars fingers stuck down Reeva's throat, and Dr Stipp putting his first foot in the door.

that is, working backwards.. DELETE ----->the quiet dinner, the yoga, the early bedtime, the fans being on the balcony , lonely and crying to come inside, the curtains being closed, the noise in the bathroom, overwhelming terror , grabbing the gun, shouting get out, get out, Reeva call the police, stomping thru the passage, whirling in front of the closed toilet door... and..

pow.. pause. pow pow pow...

now , work forwards.. DELETE ----->back out of the bathroom, turn, go into the bedroom , have a dawning that Reeva isn't in bed, run back to the bathroom , jiggle at the toilet door, run back into the bedroom , go to the balcony, call for help, put legs on, run back to the toilet door and kick it, run back to the bedroom and put the lights on, grab the cricket bat, go back to the toilet, and hammer it with the bat, pry the panels out , drag Reeva out, phone john standar, phone netcare, run downstairs to open the door, run back upstairs , pick up Reeva and go downstairs to the hallway..

Delete ALL that embroidery and whats left??

I'm confused. Don't understand? :-\

 

[Really?]

I don't think you get "arterial spurts" from squeezing

Anyway... why try so hard to twist every small detail to be something different from facts testified to? Dying upstairs, or downstairs does not change the overall facts of the case?

I have seen people suggest that OP had his fingers down her throat downstairs to try and finish her off. So claiming she was alive. It seems that anything different in any way from what OP said becomes a viable theory? that surely IS a presumption of guilt. Whatever the facts are twist, deny, downplay to fit a preconceived notion that he is guilty. Lying about every detail.

I am one who believes that he shoved his fingers in her mouth to silence her......so yeah, she may have still been breathing at that point downstairs.

People were coming in the door at that time and he could not risk any mouthing off ( in his mind) .....silent or not.

 

[Cherwell]

Lol, ok...

I think it's important mistakes are attributed to the right poster...

I was genuinely trying to help.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I agree that the shots were without a doubt intended to kill whoever was behind that door.

I know you don't want to commit yourself to 'whodunit' but if it had been a burglar one hit from a dum dum probably would have been enough to make the burglar cry out or shout stop. OP would have known it wasn't Reeva. I cannot imagine someone staying silent, having just been shot. We do know there was a gap between the first and the three following shots.

However, there is no way he could let Reeva live to tell her story. Hence three further shots. MOO

 

[DebinGA]

Try this as a scenario...

I tried and now have a "moving head". : )

 

[MeeBee]

I know you don't want to commit yourself to 'whodunit' but if it had been a burglar one hit from a dum dum probably would have been enough to make the burglar cry out or shout stop. he would have known it wasn't Reeva. I cannot imagine someone staying silent, having just been shot. We do know there was a gap between the first and the three following shots.

However, there is no way he could let Reeva live to tell her story. Hence three further shots. MOO

We don't know there was a gap. Mangena said it was possible.

 

[james83]

Ok

So bashing tiles with bat does sound like gunshots.

But bat on door later was so quiet that nobody heard it at all.

How come cops did not get bat mark expert Vermeulen to look for bat marks on tiles... report on how high bat blows would be etc.?
Vermeulen did inspect steel bath panel and had nothing to report.
Was OP on his stumps bashing tiles?

So if OP phones at 3:19 before even seeing injuries.... and made other calls after that. He then had to bash down door (quietly) drag body out, put on his legs, go downstairs and get car ready, go back upstairs to carry Reeva, and be carrying body by the time people arrived. He'd have to be VERY fast. Plus having alerted people, he had no idea how soon they would arrive.

The fact is The Stipp's who were closest were the only one's to hear both set's of sounds, so what seems more likely?.
A) Everyone heard the sound of bat hitting a door and 3 people didn't hear gunshots?.
b) Everyone heard gunshot's but 3 people didn't hear a bat hitting a door?.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

once someone has lawyerd up. even in the good old usa. the police don't get a statement.. that is, a statement at the station. Oscar had his pics taken at the station etc.. but by then his lawyer had arrived..

I think his lawyer Oldwage attended at the scene to get the things out of the safe with his sister but I am not sure at what time.
It seems like an awful lot of people close to Oscar had a very good look at that crime scene before he gave any kind of statement to the police ?

 

[Viper]

Yes, the bleeding would continue to be massive, and yes, force on the wounds would push blood out. But not forcefully enough to cause arterial spray blood splatter. It's impossible. The only thing that could do that is the heart beating. The distance of the spray shows that it was the heart doing this, which is why it was attributed as arterial spray by the blood splatter expert.

BIB. If we agree with the gentleman that performed her autopsy then she was only capable of taking a few breaths before she died, where she fell over the toilet in the WC.

Going to the duvet, those appear as drops, not spatter which would have a trail, and the blood is on the inside of the duvet as well. That blood on the duvet has another explanation.

Going to the wall above the left of the bed, there is no way blood would shoot all the way to that wall from the entrance to the hallway as OP was carrying Reeva out of the bedroom; and if it were possible all of the blood would not make it to the wall, there would be droplets all along the way including on the bed. The blood on that wall has some other explanation.

 

[Trooper]

I'm confused. Don't understand? :-\

its no use trying to follow Oscars story and make sense.


strip it ALL away.. use the biggest Occams razor you have. and then fill in the blanks..


something like this. Reeva went to the toilet. I followed on my stumps, shot thru the toilet door. came back to the bedroom, turned on the lights. thought about things, put my legs on, rang a few people. .. bashed the door down, and took her body downstairs.

 

[james83]

Also, if u have just been told to bring a wounded adult to the hospital, and you are by yourself, you need some help. And here comes a security officer in a vehicle, right outside his door, offering him emergency aid, and he says things are fine and hangs up? WTH?

What a perfect opportunity to ask him "PLEASE, help me get Reeva to the hospital !" He could have run her right down stairs and into their vehicle in moments.

Your right, that's a great point.
There is clearly something very odd about the period of time after the shots were fired, i mean it's almost as if he didn't want her to survive isn't it?, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[TorisMom003]

We don't know there was a gap. Mangena said it was possible.

I believe that he was quite certain that the first shot had to have been to the hip and then there was a pause before the other three shots. It was explained in court that the reason for the certainty was because of the trajectory of the bullets and where they hit Reeva. There had to have been a pause between the first shot and the other three in order for Reeva to have crumpled down with her hands/arms covering her head.

 

[screecher]

These are the questions I want answers to.....wth?......the phones....why why why would Reeva's phone be in the bathroom? and with the cover off....

To remove the battery and looking for sim card? Someone didn't have enough time to do either? And neglected to replace backing?

 

[MeeBee]

BIB. If we agree with the gentleman that performed her autopsy then she was only capable of taking a few breaths before she died, where she fell over the toilet in the WC.

Going to the duvet, those appear as drops, not spatter which would have a trail, and the blood is on the inside of the duvet as well. That blood on the duvet has another explanation.

Going to the wall above the left of the bed, there is no way blood would shoot all the way to that wall from the entrance to the hallway as OP was carrying Reeva out of the bedroom; and if it were possible all of the blood would not make it to the wall, there would be droplets all along the way including on the bed. The blood on that wall has some other explanation.

Ok, I didn't know we were talking about the blood by the bed. I thought that wasn't explained by anyone yet.

And yes, she was only capable of taking a few more breaths (if the pathologist is to be believed). That doesn't mean she died right away. The heart can continue to beat for a few minutes after brain death since it has an internal ticker. Once the blood supply runs out, it stops. Taking breaths and the heart beating are not synonymous.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The fact is The Stipp's who were closest were the only one's to hear both set's of sounds, so what seems more likely?.
A) Everyone heard the sound of bat hitting a door and 3 people didn't hear gunshots?.
b) Everyone heard gunshot's but 3 people didn't hear a bat hitting a door?.

I have a feeling the stipp's will be regarded as the most important witness's for the prosecution because they are the only people that had a visual of his house as well as hearing things ?
Mr Stipp's even heard the help help help and identified where it came from .
Need to go and get my head around these timescales again as it is a bit confusing to me right now .
Also I am trying to figure out the significance of the iPad syncing Was it accidental ? Was it deliberate because either Reeva or OP wanted to know what the other was doing ? Or maybe it doesn't mean anything at all and I have misunderstood that part of the testimony .

 

[BritsKate]

We don't know there was a gap. Mangena said it was possible.

"Between the first shot and the second shot there's a break. I cannot determine how long but there's definitely a break," he said. "By looking at the wounds, the deceased changed position between the first position and the second position."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...uck-experts-say/story-fnb64oi6-1226859970727#

 

[MeeBee]

I believe that he was quite certain that the first shot had to have been to the hip and then there was a pause before the other three shots. It was explained in court that the reason for the certainty was because of the trajectory of the bullets and where they hit Reeva. There had to have been a pause between the first shot and the other three in order for Reeva to have crumpled down with her hands/arms covering her head.

I'll have to go back and watch but I thought he said there was the first shot, which was to the hip, and the second and third, which he couldn't determine the order, and allowable time for her to fall, then the head shot last. Nel asked him if it could be that there was a pause after the first shot and he said that it was possible. If the shot that missed came after the first shot, this could account for a "pause."

 

[Really?]

To remove the battery and looking for sim card? Someone didn't have enough time to do either? And neglected to replace backing?

I'll go with that.......that would explain the cover off.....they don't come off that easily.....moo

 

[MeeBee]

"Between the first shot and the second shot there's a break. I cannot determine how long but there's definitely a break," he said. "By looking at the wounds, the deceased changed position between the first position and the second position."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...uck-experts-say/story-fnb64oi6-1226859970727#

Thanks I stand corrected.