Trial Discussion Thread #17

[soozieqtips]

I'd like to point you into the direction of OP's "recon mode" tweet made earlier in 2012.

Nobody witnessed that.

 

[MeeBee]

And how many bullet holes does the washer sport? NONE.

How many washers do you know that can open windows?

 

[MeeBee]

Nobody witnessed that.

Oh, ok.

 

[sorrell skye]

The state asserts it because it's a clever way of getting the conviction you want without having to prove your case. It doesn't mean that is how it will work. I believe it will be up to the judge to decide if Oscar acted as a reasonable person would if she believes his story.

Yeah, I think the state's error in personae argument is bunk, as Roux points out in the bail hearing. The state has really made no arguments or produced any evidence at trial to suggest Oscar was trying to kill "a defenseless burglar." There would be no way to prove it anyway because Oscar is saying he was afraid of an armed intruder, not a defenseless burglar - and no one can give evidence that OP really thought the intruder was defenseless.

In fact, the trajectory of the shots does support his claim that he considered the intruder in the toilet to be armed - someone who could have shot him if he had been out in the open.

OP can say anything he wants, but, according to SA law that was testified to by Sean Rens, shooting through a door at an unknown, unidentified person is unlawful.

1. Did OP see the intruder(s)? No

2. Did OP see the intruder(s) wield a lethal weapon (gun, knife, etc.)? No

3. Did the intruder(s) threaten to kill OP and then approach him? No

In order for OP's claim to be supported by SA law, he would have had to answer yes to the above questions. IMO, his claim is not reasonable, nor is it based on the law, according to Sean Rens, and according to the State's case.

OP can't claim error in persona after the fact, because his actions were unlawful in the first place. The State didn't include error in persona in order to be clever, or because they don't have a case. The State included it because it's the law.

OP is charged with the unlawful and intentional killing of a human being. If he HAD killed a burglar (instead of Reeva), based on the circumstances in which he fired 4 rounds through a closed door, he would still be guilty of the unlawful and intentional killing of a human being, because his answers to the above 3 questions would still be "no".

I believe the State has proved their case.

 

[TorisMom003]

How many washers do you know that can open windows?

It was given as an example as to what OP does when he hears a noise that startles him or sounds like a burglar/intruder. He shot the toilet room door 4 times because he thought an intruder was in there, even though he didn't see an intruder. He didn't shoot the washer but he thought it was an intruder and it had made a noise that to OP sounded like an intruder.

 

[minor4th]

And is it safer to give audio clues to your whereabouts rather than just advancing in silence?

All I can say about this is based on having been in a situation where I thought there was a burglar trying to enter my home when it was late at night and my spouse was on call.

I loudly got the 12 gage shotgun and loudly pumped it to assure that the intruder knew that I was armed and ready to shoot. And even though I was alone, I called out as if there was someone with me "Call the cops - I don't want to kill this guy" or words to that effect.

Was it rational? Maybe not - but at the time, being scared beyond belief, in my mind, I was blustering and hoping to scare the intruder away. It might have worked too because when the cops got there, there was evidence that there had been someone outside a lower floor window tampering with it...but if there was someone there, they had fled before the police got there.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Good morning, all :seeya:

I have a packed day today but just wanted to jump in real quick...

The right side of the bed that Reeva was supposedly sleeping in is extremely close to the balcony. I find it extremely hard to believe that Oscar coming in off of that balcony would not see her there - she would have been a few feet away from him.

The holster was found on the left side of the bed, up against the wall on the nightstand.

The magazine and it's carrying case were found in the drawer on the right side night stand where Oscar typically sleeps.

Interestingly, the blood spatter found on the wall behind the headboard was on the left hand side, just above the holster case.

Yes I have often thought about that . Thanks for all the pictures
And even if he couldn't see he was stood right by where she was supposed to be . He could have touched or whispered to her on his way round to get the gun.
Why shout for Reeva to call police not security ?
Don't suppose you have seen a picture showing where the panic alarm was ?
TIA

 

[MeeBee]

It was given as an example as to what OP does when he hears a noise that startles him or sounds like a burglar/intruder. He shot the toilet room door 4 times because he thought an intruder was in there, even though he didn't see an intruder. He didn't shoot the washer but he thought it was an intruder and it had made a noise that to OP sounded like an intruder.

With the washer he heard rustling, vague sounds. Same, presumably, with the noises he reported to ST. Hearing a window opening and possibly whatever was going on in the bathroom, like a key locking, are only attributable to human manipulation. Those are pretty tell tale signs that your ears aren't just playing with you, they're real. Panic mode.

 

[TorisMom003]

All I can say about this is based on having been in a situation where I thought there was a burglar trying to enter my home when it was late at night and my spouse was on call.

I loudly got the 12 gage shotgun and loudly pumped it to assure that the intruder knew that I was armed and ready to shoot. And even though I was alone, I called out as if there was someone with me "Call the cops - I don't want to kill this guy" or words to that effect.

Was it rational? Maybe not - but at the time, being scared beyond belief, in my mind, I was blustering and hoping to scare the intruder away. It might have worked too because when the cops got there, there was evidence that there had been someone outside a lower floor window tampering with it...but if there was someone there, they had fled before the police got there.

But did you go towards that intruder down a dark corridor, around two corners while saying loudly for them to get out of your house so that they would know your position? Did you have the option of pushing an alarm button that notified on site security that you needed help but didn't push it at all and even told police/security when they phoned/showed up that everything was fine?

 

[strydohj]

Yeah, if you're armed and ready to shoot it's safer to pro-actively stop the threat, as opposed getting shot because you can't get down the stairs.

That is of course if there is a threat to start with. I guess we have different opinions on what constitutes a threat. Also no need to stop the threat because even if it was an intruder it wasn't really going anywhere...

 

[james83]

With the washer he heard rustling, vague sounds. Same, presumably, with the noises he reported to ST. Hearing a window opening and possibly whatever was going on in the bathroom, like a key locking, are only attributable to human manipulation. Those are pretty tell tale signs that your ears aren't just playing with you, they're real. Panic mode.

No there was no key locking heard, only when he got to the bathroom did he "hear a noise in the toilet".

 

[minor4th]

But did you go towards that intruder down a dark corridor, around two corners while saying loudly for them to get out of your house so that they would know your position? Did you have the option of pushing an alarm button that notified on site security that you needed help but didn't push it at all and even told police/security when they phoned/showed up that everything was fine?

I got in a position kind of sheltered by a corner where tI could shoot him before he could shoot me if he got in the house. If he had been in my house in a closed room and I could hear him - I would have shot him through the door if I could not run away safely.

I didn't push a button - I called the cops and yelled and pumped my shotgun. And it was effective on that occasion. But remember, I was alone and not with someone else in the house at the time.

 

[MeeBee]

No there was no key locking heard, only when he got to the bathroom did he "hear a noise in the toilet".

Did he specify what the noise was?

 

[Viper]

It doesn't make any sense.

I've seen the rods, they don't show movement. The witnesses all say what they heard happened in rapid succession of each other. What you are claiming requires at least a bit of a pause between each shot which no one has reported. There's no logical reason for someone to "track a voice" when firing into such a small space and I don't see how you even could. No matter where she was standing/sitting it's all going to sound the same. If he was trying to kill her why did he aim at her lower body and wait for her to fall then aim at her head? ....Why not just aim high the first time if you're trying to kill someone? I could go on.

I'm not arguing this because it doesn't fit the defense case, it doesn't fit anyone's case.

BIB1. Yes they do!!!

BIB2. Did you watch the video? It requires a fraction if a second to both reacquire his target (his aim) and move slightly to the right to get a better shot on the target.

BIB3. It is the only way OP could have hit Reeva with 3 of his 4 shots fired while he was moving and reacquiring his target (aim). And the logical reason he did it was to murder Reeva.

BIB4. OPs first shot was aimed center mass but it went low left and hit Reeva's hip. Center mass is the paper target bullseye at his shooting range, and it is the best target because it is easier to hit than a headshot would be; only snipers aim for the head. Once Reeva fell there was only one target left, her voice, so to silence her blood curdling screams he targeted her voice (her mouth) and he did get a successful headshot.

BIB5. See BIB4

 

[soozieqtips]

It was given as an example as to what OP does when he hears a noise that startles him or sounds like a burglar/intruder. He shot the toilet room door 4 times because he thought an intruder was in there, even though he didn't see an intruder. He didn't shoot the washer but he thought it was an intruder and it had made a noise that to OP sounded like an intruder.

Exactly. He shot the imaginary intruder in the toilet before ever seeing the imaginary intruder, so why didn't he also shoot before seeing the washing machine??? He can't have it both ways. He heard noises both times but he only shot one time - the time Reeva happened to be staying over and when it was entirely probable it was her who was making the noise in the first place.

Surely the fact he had no one staying over when the washing machine 'intruded' would have made him more paranoid, yet oddly enough, he didn't shoot anything! Why's that I wonder? Either he made the story up... or he was rational enough not to shoot without knowing what the hell he was shooting at.

 

[DebinGA]

If OP really wanted to feel safe, he could have turned his inner/outer security system on, removed the ladders he knew were outside, locked all the door/windows, had his downstairs window and ac fixed immediately, but he did none of those.

 

[Gryffindor]

It was given as an example as to what OP does when he hears a noise that startles him or sounds like a burglar/intruder. He shot the toilet room door 4 times because he thought an intruder was in there, even though he didn't see an intruder. He didn't shoot the washer but he thought it was an intruder and it had made a noise that to OP sounded like an intruder.

And interestingly, aforementioned washing machine/intruder" tweet has since been deleted whilst the trial was in progress.

 

[james83]

Did he specify what the noise was?

Correction from my last post, he heard movement inside the toilet.

 

[soozieqtips]

All I can say about this is based on having been in a situation where I thought there was a burglar trying to enter my home when it was late at night and my spouse was on call.

I loudly got the 12 gage shotgun and loudly pumped it to assure that the intruder knew that I was armed and ready to shoot. And even though I was alone, I called out as if there was someone with me "Call the cops - I don't want to kill this guy" or words to that effect.

Was it rational? Maybe not - but at the time, being scared beyond belief, in my mind, I was blustering and hoping to scare the intruder away. It might have worked too because when the cops got there, there was evidence that there had been someone outside a lower floor window tampering with it...but if there was someone there, they had fled before the police got there.

BBM - so you fired off a warning shot. But OP didn't bother with that. He immediately shot to kill.

 

[james83]

If OP really wanted to feel safe, he could have turned his inner/outer security system on, removed the ladders he knew were outside, locked all the door/windows, had his downstairs window and ac fixed immediately, but he did none of those.

And if he really "had to protect Reeva", he could have told her he'd heard someone in the bathroom and told her to her out of the house while he investigate's.