Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Cherwell]

Nobody's disputing that OP didn't successfully shoot through the door Viper. OP obviously did. What's being suggested is that he had no way of knowing where Reeva was, therefore could not intentionally target parts of Reeva's body.

If you hear someone fall, it's a fair assumption that they're going to be lower down than they were before.

 

[strydohj]

I guess he felt that nobody was going to survive that, and unfortunately he was correct.

Do we know how many bullets were in the magazine?

That may have been all the bullets that were loaded.

I'd like to know more on that though.

Don't know, but we know from evidence there was at least another one in the chamber...

 

[steveml]

Please re read what I posted. OP claims that he retrieved the key from the FLOOR of the toilet room. OP does not claim that he retrieved the key from the lock on the toilet side of the door.

Ah, I should have remembered that...but...principle regarding not being able to have two keys in a lock at once remains. The keys were dislodged during the bashing of the door.

In my excitement of the two-key revelation I forgot that I'd mentioned the key was probably dislodged due to the door bashing in an earlier post.

You stole my thunder :tsktsk:

But it's back :smile:

 

[Viper]

How would one know after four shots, not getting any audible feedback, that it is ok stop firing and that the intruder has been incapacitated?

Reeva's screaming stopped after the 3rd / 4th bullets, so OP had gotten what he wanted, he wanted her dead.

 

[seattlechiquita]

A quick thought has just crossed my mind when the key was mentioned :idea:

OP can't use a spare key. It's simple but obvious.

The keys are inside the door in a locked position on Reeva's side.

You can't unlock a door whilst keys are in the opposite side of a lock in a locked position. The key will not go in. This is why he had no choice but to break the door down.

...I have my moments.

(I hope I'm right)

Just this makes me think even more about the whole thing NOT happening as OP says it did. WHO locks themselves in the WC in their own/their partner's house? I mean, seriously. No one does that. You lock yourself inside somewhere when you are trying to keep someone AWAY FROM YOU.

 

[vansleuths]

I thought this was quite interesting - http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Oscar-judge-jails-man-for-killing-wifes-lover-20140403

Judge Thokozile Masipa, who is also the presiding judge in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial, convicted Hans Isaacs of attempted murder, murder and arson after he killed his wife's boyfriend in a fit of jealousy. The Citizen reported she sentenced him to 30 years' imprisonment, but he will only have to serve 15 years.

 

[steveml]

Just this makes me think even more about the whole thing NOT happening as OP says it did. WHO locks themselves in the WC in their own/their partner's house? I mean, seriously. No one does that. You lock yourself inside somewhere when you are trying to keep someone AWAY FROM YOU.

Yep, that's another personal thing - who does and who doesn't.

I've never gone for a number 2 with the door unlocked.

:tmi:

 

[james83]

A quick thought has just crossed my mind when the key was mentioned :idea:

OP can't use a spare key. It's simple but obvious.

The keys are inside the door in a locked position on Reeva's side.

You can't unlock a door whilst keys are in the opposite side of a lock in a locked position. The key will not go in. This is why he had no choice but to break the door down.

...I have my moments.

(I hope I'm right)

I have a that same kind of lock on my bathroom door and yes that is the case with mine, more to the point when the key is in the locked position it seems to be impossible to get it out of the lock, i just got the misses to lock herself in and i gave the door a few hard bangs right on the lock but the key stayed firm, i'm not going there with the cricket bat before anyone ask's.

 

[Insp.Dots]

When she fell? No. After she fell? Yes.

I look at it this way. OP would have shot at center mass of the door if he really thought that an intruder was in that room. He didn't. OP shot towards the toilet, down lower where someone would be sitting on the toilet. OP then moved to the right and up, where someone would be standing after getting up from the toilet. Then OP moved right even more and downward, where someone would be after being struck with one or two bullets that had already been fired.

This shows me that OP was tracking where Reeva would be and fired accordingly.

MOO

Wouldn't there have been more of a gap between the shots and a different trajectory though? I just think Mangena the ballistic s guy would have mentioned this if he thought it possible. He was pretty spot on with his evidence. Also stating the shooter could have been as far back as 2.5m...which is in front of sinks, where they all seem to agree he most likely was. CONFUSED again.com

 

[steveml]

If you hear someone fall, it's a fair assumption that they're going to be lower down than they were before.

Yep, but how do you know you're not shooting them in the arm, the leg, the foot, the , the back, the chest etc. etc. How do you know where their head is?

Also we need to remember that Reeva wasn't right in front of the door. OP wouldn't know this either.

My money's on 4 shots in a general area on the door.

I don't believe OP has done what an SAS/NAVY SEAL military trained sharpshooter wouldn't even be able to do. That's without being in total darkness and on stumps.

Shooting may have been a hobby, but he's not even trained. Most of his later life was spent sprinting in a straight line down a running track.

 

[Insp.Dots]

How would one know after four shots, not getting any audible feedback, that it is ok stop firing and that the intruder has been incapacitated?

Good question that I think Nel will ask....Why did you stop?
His answer will be interesting!

 

[steveml]

I have a that same kind of lock on my bathroom door and yes that is the case with mine, more to the point when the key is in the locked position it seems to be impossible to get it out of the lock, i just got the misses to lock herself in and i gave the door a few hard bangs right on the lock but the key stayed firm, i'm not going there with the cricket bat before anyone ask's.

No worries.

Thanks for your honesty though.

I haven't got a key lock like that to try as mine are hand turn ones, so I was hoping someone could verify.

Cheers.

 

[Feynman]

BBM - And missed other noises the 'intruder' would have made climbing through the window and landing on the floor. I'd like that scene to be replicated with fans on to know if he could really only hear ONE sound (conveniently). Also, what made him wake up in the first place? He doesn't say what woke him up at 3am. He just says: "I woke up at 3am and went to bring in the fans..." - if I wake up at an odd time like that, it's normally to go to the loo, or because I'm thirsty, or because I'm too hot or too cold. I don't wake up for no reason like OP apparently did.

He doesn't mention 3 am.

 

[soozieqtips]

He doesn't mention 3 am.

Sorry. You're right. He doesn't. He says:

"During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains".

It was close to 3am though judging from the witness testimony.

 

[Feynman]

It reached 91.4F in Pretoria on Feb 13, 2013. At 8pm it was 75F. At 2am it was in the 62F range. Pretoria is at an elevation of 4500' above sea level.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...retoria&req_state=&req_statename=South+Africa

The air conditioning in Oscars home was broken. The use of fans to cool the house and being placed outside on the deck so they would not be noisy, makes perfect sense.

Retiring to bed at 10pm does not preclude minor activity by either party between that time and 3am.

The house cooled down and the ambient noise level in the neighbourhood dropped between 10pm and 3am. It is most likely that they woke up slightly chilly (outside temperature was 62F at 3am) and aware of the noisy fan (ambient noise level was now lower than at 10pm). That big fan on the stand looks like it could move a lot of air and my experience with that type of fan is that they are noisy.


Being chilly increases the need to pee and slipping quietly to the toilet while Oscar is bringing in the fans seems in context with normal human behaviour. (Also possibly using phone light to navigate trip). Oscar needed to wait for the fans to power down before moving them. Does he have to hurry in the middle of the night?


It has been confirmed (phone data and other) that Oscar had a bad right shoulder. Roux says he had a medical patch on the night in question. It is probable he slept on the left side of the bed so he could face Reeva. Door to deck was open with noisy fans going. At some time before he brought the fans in he spoke to Reeva. Possibly since Reeva was on the window side closest to the fans now blowing in 62F air, she might have mentioned to him that she was cold and ask him to close up the room. If the bathroom window was closed then the bathroom would still be muggy and hot compared to the bedroom.

Sunrise was at around 5:51 AM on Feb. 14 2013 so closing the curtains and drapes to keep the room dark for sleeping is also normal. Doors were closed because it was now chilly in the room.

This is based on the defence model and is not necessarily what really happened but rather an attempt to understand if the model is workable.

:coldout:

Thank you for some badly needed reason and balance.

 

[Cherwell]

Yep, but how do you know you're not shooting them in the arm, the leg, the foot, the , the back, the chest etc. etc. How do you know where their head is?

Also we need to remember that Reeva wasn't right in front of the door. OP wouldn't know this either.

My money's on 4 shots in a general area on the door.

I don't believe OP has done what as SAS/NAVY SEAL military trained sharpshooter wouldn't even be able to do. That's without being in total darkness and on stumps.

Shooting may have been a hobby, but he's not even trained. Most of his later life was spent sprinting in a straight line down a running track.

He didn't need to know where her head was. If you're shooting at somebody in such a small confined space, who's already down, and you keep shooting, one or more of those shots will be fatal. We've been told that any of the shots that hit her would have been fatal without rapid medical aid, because of the nature of the bullets. He just shot until she stopped screaming.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just a thought. Regarding Oscar's panic/fear, consider:

Whilst he was aiming 1st shot at toilet door WHAT IF said "burglar" (if they'd opened the window) had indeed ducked down, whilst standing on ladders (Oscar's claim ladders were present against wall, allowing access) and started shooting at HIM whilst he was fixated on toilet door??

Sorry, that is incorrect. The ladders were laying flat at the base of the house and were not even under the bathroom window.

 

[Viper]

that is of course if there is a threat to start with. I guess we have different opinions on what constitutes a threat. Also no need to stop the threat because even if it was an intruder it wasn't really going anywhere...

^^^^this^^^^

 

[steveml]

He didn't need to know where her head was. If you're shooting at somebody in such a small confined space, who's already down, and you keep shooting, one or more of those shots will be fatal. We've been told that any of the shots that hit her would have been fatal without rapid medical aid, because of the nature of the bullets. He just shot until she stopped screaming.

That's fair enough. I agree the screaming has to be looked at carefully.

It's the tracking of Reeva's body parts that doesn't sit at all right with me.

 

[Duchy]

RBBM

Remember too that according to OP his bedroom door was locked. Did Reeva has access to a key? She may have been trapped in more ways than one. I see her only escape routes being the balcony or the only other area where she could put a locked door between him and herself.

Or the window:twocents: