Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[TipDog]

While I can understand and sympathize with all of that, I find it incredibly disrespectful to Reeva's family and friends. They have been sitting over there listening to the same things that OP and his family/friends have been. Reeva's family and friends have behaved very admirably IMO. They have actually lost Reeva, forever. Reeva will never come back, not in 25 years, not in 15 years, NEVER. If OP goes to prison for the crime that HE committed, his family and friends will have him back. They will still be able to see him, talk to him, etc. If the judge feels that Aimee should be allowed to stay in the courtroom then perhaps Aimee should be told to stop the theatrics. If Aimee can not comply, then she needs to watch the trial unfold at home on the tv so that she can mourn however she sees fit without it affecting the family of the true victim in this case.

MOO

I get where you are coming from, but you're judging from a very removed stance.

Remember that Reeva's family lost her over a year ago. They actually are showing what is more normal for most humans with respect to the grieving process. They've accepted that she's gone forever.

I do not believe that June Steenkamp is holding anything together and "behaving." She just is composed because the moment of utter, life-shattering loss of a daughter has already passed. I'm in no way saying that the loss is any less today than then, but in the normal grieving process, she has already hit all the stages. Now, she wants answers. And also, not trying to be petty here, I believe the Steenkamps simply have more class and education than OP's family. Stoicism is a more natural behavior for someone who is more interested in facts than emotions.

And to this point - the over the top grieving is also why many people are questioning OP's outbursts in court. He too lost Reeva (accidentally killed/intentionally murdered, doesn't matter which) over a year ago. He was there. So, why all the puking and crying and grieving now? Not normal, not in the least - and not genuine. No - he's now grieving for the potential loss of his own freedom, is more like it.

 

[G.bng]

Nice piece about Gerrie Nel from the New York Times if anyone's interested.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/14/world/africa/pistorius-murder-trial.html?hp&_r=1

 

[jay-jay]

Thank you. I would hate to go back and listen to all that all over again. But I think Nel missed an important "slip of tongue." (I'm sure there will be some on here to laugh at my making that assumption, but IMO, when testifying, semantics matter more than when someone is just having a conversation.)

Of course, logically, I cannot create a scenario in my head where OP would need to kneel in order to shoot through the door, especially if he's threatened RS, she's screaming and he shoots her in rage. It would make more sense that he'd be standing.

So, never mind...

.. that all depends when he thought up his intruder story, though .. he may even have done it at that point, and decided that if he knelt down (with his prosthesis on) then he could just say he was disturbed/taken by surprise at some point during the night by a noise in the bathroom and because he'd just got out of bed, he was on his stumps. I'm not entirely convinced he thought up the intruder story in the aftermath, it's just as possible that he thought of it before he shot her.

 

[liesbeth]

A reasonable man living with another person will not wake up at night, hear a noise in the toilet and shoot through the toilet door without even asking: "That you, love?"

 

[Carol70]

I've only started properly following this trial since the beginning of Pistorius' testimony so this might have been covered, but one thing that (rightly or wrongly) is concerning me greatly is Reeva Steenkamp's phone.

Pistorius submitted that as he approached the corridor he screamed at Steenkamp to phone the police (as well as at the imagined intruder/s). He then appeared to testify that he spent a good deal of time approaching the bathroom yelling the same thing, then became quiet while surveying said bathroom - consolidating the relative safety of his position - before again screaming at the intruders.

Looking at this from Steenkamp's perspective: Steenkamp had her phone in the toilet (she did, right?) has suddenly realised there are intruders in the house and is being requested by an apparently retreating Pistorius to phone the police. Given these circumstances and the apparent length of time elapsing in Pistorius' version between him yelling at Reeva to phone the police and shooting through the door I would have imagined Reeva to have complied with his request.

My question then is; are there any records which show that such a call was attempted, and if not what reason should she have not to comply with Oscar's desperate requests?

We have heard nothing about what Reeva may have been doing on her phone..even hours before the shooting up until that walk to the bathroom. I can only imagine that it has not been brought up because there is nothing of relevance.

Welcome to WS

 

[aa9511]

This is close to what I think happened. But in my theory, he is screaming at her in an uncontrollable rage and kicking and banging on the door. I think he may have even used the bat once or twice but decided to get the gun. He came back and took 1 look through the keyhole and saw where she was and then blasted in her direction 4 rapid shots.

I dont think she had a clue how violent he was about to get.

I also think that maybe that valentines day card was a clue to him that she wanted him to either say he loved her or not. I think the whole argument may have been her trying to see if he really loved her or not. He probably never told her he loved her and she was probably wanting a Yes or No. She may have said if you dont love me, I am going to have to end our relationship. Something along those lines.

Yes your scenario sounds very likely, especially considering the dent in the bathtub. It does make sense that he would be kicking things and in an uncontrollable rage.

That makes a lot of sense. Also, it looks like he got frustrated by his inabliity to get her out of the bathroom (while alive I mean), and that's why he got so frustrated and got his gun.

I just wish he had been taught easy ways to control his anger - like, leave the situation. If he had just gone outside and hit something outside like a tree or something, just to catch his breath. This tragedy would have never happened. This is IN NO WAY an excuse for him, I just wish he had been taught this from an early age so that he would have learned to deal with his anger.

Of course, if his temper escalated b/c of fear that she would call the police and/or call someone else, I suppose it wouldn't really have done any good. For example, if he went outside and she ended up calling the police, his anger would be even greater when he got back. B/c the root cause of the problem is something that wouldn't go away - fear of any bad publicity. If she really had called the police, it would have triggered his anger anyway.

I have also thought about the reason you mentioned about the "I love you," but the only thing is didn't he open the card, along with the present, like a year later? Or did he open it that night?

 

[BritsKate]

The word "help" isn't just for when we need immediate assistance. I know I've cried over the death of a loved one and said "help" aloud among other words. I've also said "help" aloud during an earthquake (LA Nothridge Quake, 1994 - man, was it a doozie!). And I'm pretty certain when I was pulled over for speeding years ago that I said "help" aloud in hopes the officer would give me a warning prior to him walking up to my window (the universe heard me and it worked!)



So, it is very possible that OP, upon realizing what he'd done, could have become very remorseful, panicked (obviously), and, I believe, quickly into "what do I do now for myself" mode and not "what do I do now to help Reeva" - he knew immediately upon getting through that bathroom door that she was dead, no matter how much he sat up on that stand and lied through his teeth.



When I suggest that it could have been a moment of madness for him, I mean that he wasn't crying for actual, immediae help in the heightened situation he was currently in (if he'd dialed 911/security, then he would have). And often, in panic, we do things that make no sense whatsoever except that they are the universal norm. E.g., OP could have simply been crying out. He may have even cried "Reeva, Reeva!" for all we know (although, I don't believe he screamed it as no one heard it). The helps that he yelled could have just been automatic once he realized what he'd done.



And no matter which version any of us believe, he did cry help, help, help - to my mind, the least likely reason would be to mock her sadistically. Instead, it was in a panicked moment, because he realized what he'd done (which also fits both versions).

But it doesn't or I'm totally confused which would not be hard with this case. The yelling for help came before the bangs at 3.17. The State says these were the shots.

In order for him yelling to occur for the reasons you state we have to accept a 17 minute gap before he broke the door down or that he was screaming like a woman for 12 minutes before he fired. Because the defence has stated the shots were the first bangs witnesses place at 3 and Oscar says he shot at 3.12.

Am I making sense? Gah, this case!


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[DebinGA]

When I heard about the way he was speeding in that car ride and scaring RS on purpose, that is consistent with mocking, controlling behavior. When I think of him driving over a hundred miles an hour, and laughing at her screams, I have no problem believing that he mocked her cries for help on the morning of the 14th.

Ditto OP shooting out the sunroof at full speed. He wasn't driving, but DF wasn't expecting a gun to go off beside him and could have wrecked the car and killed them all. OP is a fool.

 

[fox1lady]

The Judge surely has to at least lock this man away for the minimum term for CH. He is clearly negligent and wields guns around like they've got popping candy inside them instead of bullets that can actually kill people. It would definitely be negligent of her to allow him to walk free after this tragedy especially because it's been totally evident that the cocky little runt would possibly not learn a thing from all of this and continue to be as boastful, arrogant, self assured and as spoilt as he has been up till now.

 

[BritsKate]

You are making it twenty minutes or 17 minutes, it could easily be ten minutes or fifteen minutes or less. These times are not written in stone.



You have to consider Dr. Stipp heard the first 'gunshots,' then the woman screaming, then he immediately called security, and while he is on the phone with security, the second 'gunshots' happen. So did Dr. Stipp sit there through 20 minutes of screaming after 'gunshots' and do nothing? No. He acted immediately. So it is probably more like 7 minutes or less between the two sets of 'gunshots.'



Then he got over to Oscar's house as fast as he could.



So did Oscar have time to break down the door etc before Stipp got there? And, his other friends were already there when Stipp got there with their garbage bags and rope all in a row.



Stipp is the Defense's star witness.

That's not what the evidence supports. 3:02 for Annette Stipp with a fast clock; 3:12 to shoot estimated by Oscar; 3:15 phone call by Dr. Stipp; 3:16 phone calls by two neighbours; 3:17 second bangs; 3:19 call to Stander; 3:20 call to netcare.

Those are the times we have to work with.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[katydid23]

Reeva not calling the police---that makes me believe she was hiding from OP and not phantom intruders. If she thought there was a home invasion, she would have rung security or the cops. Even if she were afraid of speaking loudly, she could have whispered the address.

But if she was hiding from OP, she might have been bluffing about calling the cops. She peobably would have thought twice, and not really wanted to get them involved. She would not have wanted the bad publicity that would have resulted. But she may have threatened OP with the call to police and it may have triggered his rage.

 

[Mr Ron]

We have heard nothing about what Reeva may have been doing on her phone..even hours before the shooting up until that walk to the bathroom. I can only imagine that it has not been brought up because there is nothing of relevance.

Welcome to WS

Thankyou

The lack of any data on that really does trouble me then. Not what she was doing on it during the evening, but why she didn't attempt to call the police once she had her phone with her in that cubicle. If it was me and my partner was screaming at me to phone the police and alerting me to the danger of intruders I'm pretty certain I'd phone them. I'm not dogmatic about it but that she did not do so causes me to somewhat doubt Pistorius' series of events.

 

[TrueDetective]

Capt. Mangena left open the possibility OP shot from his hip/waist wearing his legs. I think in one of his evolving versions late last week, before changing it back, OP described shooting with a bent arm.

That is also my belief. He shot whilst on his legs.

 

[aa9511]

Sorry in advance mods, and I hope this is understood how I mean it, but this is really aggravating me to the point that I believe it needs to be noted.

Beginning @ 52:47 in the video I am putting below, the camera angle moves so that the gallery can be seen. Before and after this we have seen close up Reeva's family and friends sitting up, paying attention, without any dramatics on their parts even though they are hearing testimony that has to be unbelievably hard on them. Then we have OP's sister bent over completely where only a small part of her back is showing (white top next to the woman in the white top). Earlier OP's sister was doing the same position that OP has been. Hands covering face, head down, thumbs in and/or near ears. The theatrics that OP's sister is displaying is uncalled for and frankly should not be allowed in court. IMO if she can not control herself and behave in the manner in which one expects in a court of law then she should be asked to leave by the judge.

MOO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7H9rQ72yE#aid=P9pynR-2SDw

I don't see that at 52:47...is that time right?

 

[DebinGA]

OP killed Reeva to prevent her from calling police imo. He'd taken her phone, and all she could do was try to rouse the neighbors, hoping they'd call police.

 

[TipDog]

But it doesn't or I'm totally confused which would not be hard with this case. The yelling for help came before the bangs at 3.17. The State says these were the shots.

In order for him yelling to occur for the reasons you state we have to accept a 17 minute gap before he broke the door down or that he was screaming like a woman for 12 minutes before he fired. Because the defence has stated the shots were the first bangs witnesses place at 3 and Oscar says he shot at 3.12.

Am I making sense? Gah, this case!


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

To be honest, I'm still torn over what I believe the timing really was and the witness testimony is confusing (as it is apt to be in any of these cases where sounds are heard in the dead of night at a distance).

And, I really shouldn't admit this, but after hearing OP's voice, I'm not convinced that he doesn't scream in a very high pitched manner. I also do not agree that the bat noises would have sounded like gunshots.

But never mind these thoughts as I'm stilling mulling and am likely wrong about all of it.

Yet, I still don't believe he yelled those helps in a mocking, sadistic manner. I also don't believe he yelled them to actually receive help. So, I'm stuck.

 

[Giles]

You are making it twenty minutes or 17 minutes, it could easily be ten minutes or fifteen minutes or less. These times are not written in stone.

You have to consider Dr. Stipp heard the first 'gunshots,' then the woman screaming, then he immediately called security, and while he is on the phone with security, the second 'gunshots' happen. So did Dr. Stipp sit there through 20 minutes of screaming after 'gunshots' and do nothing? No. He acted immediately. So it is probably more like 7 minutes or less between the two sets of 'gunshots.'

Then he got over to Oscar's house as fast as he could.

So did Oscar have time to break down the door etc before Stipp got there? And, his other friends were already there when Stipp got there with their garbage bags and rope all in a row.

Stipp is the Defense's star witness.

Yes, I don't think it's 17 minutes between the sets of noises. 12 minutes seems consistent with the evidence.

I think the Stipps were among the most reliable witnesses called so far. As to whether Stipp is the Defenses star witness? Not if you believe his (and her) observation that the Bathroom light was on moments after the first set of noises - This is among the most damning pieces of evidence against OP.

 

[liesbeth]

You are making it twenty minutes or 17 minutes, it could easily be ten minutes or fifteen minutes or less. These times are not written in stone.

You have to consider Dr. Stipp heard the first 'gunshots,' then the woman screaming, then he immediately called security, and while he is on the phone with security, the second 'gunshots' happen. So did Dr. Stipp sit there through 20 minutes of screaming after 'gunshots' and do nothing? No. He acted immediately. So it is probably more like 7 minutes or less between the two sets of 'gunshots.'

Then he got over to Oscar's house as fast as he could.

So did Oscar have time to break down the door etc before Stipp got there? And, his other friends were already there when Stipp got there with their garbage bags and rope all in a row.

Stipp is the Defense's star witness.

About the first sounds:

• Mr. Baba said a guard reported gunshots shortly after three.
• Mrs. Stipp woke at 03:02 (but said her clock was 3-4 minutes fast) and heard shots shortly afterwards.
• Mrs. van der Merwe said she heard 4 shots at about three.

About Dr. Stipp:

• He waited for Baba to come to his house and pointed out OP's house to Baba.
• He drove to security to find out if it was safe before he went to to OP's house.

Mrs. Stipp said she was coming inside and looked at the clock when she heard the second set of sounds. This was about 03:17.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-1/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/09/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-5-part-2/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-6/
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-14/

 

[molly333]

Mr Dixon, Mr Dixon, Mr Dixon. Tut tut tut. Speaking to the accused. Never heard the recording from the music producer. No expertise in wound ballistics. No report. Who is this guy? This guy is a shambles. Why oh why have defence brought this guy up to the stand. Nel is murdering him here. (No pun intended)

All the defense has to do is show the Judge that gunshots and the crack of the bat against the door sound surprisingly alike. I know I was surprised by it.

But I shouldn't have been surprised. Dr. Stipp already told us they both sounded like gunshots.

Defense should call up the youtube guy and play his youtube for the Judge if Dixon didn't work out.

PS Defense atty's often ask their experts not to write a report so they don't have to give it to the prosecution.

 

[TrueDetective]

IMO it simply doesn't matter much. Reminds me of the Jodi Arais trial where folks were arguing if the gunshot or knife came first. Round and round .....round...again.

Hey, we need something to fill up the next 2 weeks!!