Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[Mr Ron]

If she really thought it was a home invasion herself, maybe not.

And, maybe she was standing at the locked door listening to see if she could figure out what was going on and what all the ruckus was about?

But, why didn't she call the police on her cell phone? Maybe you can't in SA?

Maybe she couldn't understand what he was saying?

dial 10111 IIRC. The idea she didn't understand what he was saying is possible.

 

[minor4th]

Or like Nel had put to him, OP was buying time to make it more plausible that the gunshots were the noises heard at 3:15-3:17, and that the first set of noises that the Stipps heard must have been the window slamming into the frame and toilet door slamming shut but didn't hear him breaking down the toilet door because they were too busy calling security etc. However, that doesn't explain the previous 10-15 minutes of screaming that everyone heard because surely it didn't take him that long from hearing the window to getting his gun to shooting into the door?

Do you really think a window sliding open and a door closing would sound exactly like gunshots to Dr and Mrs Stipp? I don't believe so.

 

[Panda]

~snipped~

BBM - If she'd heard him screaming and shooting while she was supposed to still be in bed... then why didn't he think she might have left the house in panic and called for help once outside? And not only that, but having feared there could have been more than one intruder, his concern about that suddenly disappeared after the shooting. So how did he know there weren't any others lying in wait to kill him and steal a watch? And why oh why didn't he think that the most obvious reason for Reeva not being in the bedroom was because she'd left to call the police from a safe place. The bedroom door was the closest exit, remember? He feels all around the curtains for her (allegedly) but doesn't think the most obvious thing - that she's left... via the closest exit. He's a nasty piece of work and I hope he gets severely punished for what he did. Your post about Reeva's family getting to be with her in the afterlife (because she's not really 'gone') doesn't lessen his crime, and most certainly won't make Reeva's family feel better about it. He belongs somewhere away from society with a team of psychiatrists studying him in great detail. He's dangerous and unpredictable, and he had been for a long while before he murdered Reeva.

The other things that struck me - after the shots were fired, I don't think he did anything or said anything to establish if indeed anyone was in the bathroom. He didn't call out, listen at the door, try to open the door straight away. For all he knew, the intruder was in the bathroom but not hit and could have come out and attacked him (or whatever).

 

[TipDog]

Rush and run are relative terms.

Yes, I know they are. By duplicity, I didn't mean between those two words I meant actually two things - his deceitfulness and the idea that he can rush and run in parts of his version, but has limited mobility in other parts. My use of the word was in itself a duplicity, but only in that I meant the word to mean two things. :wink:

 

[shane13]

(Response to my question as to why Reeva had not phoned the police as Oscar had requested)

That is a possibility, but I've just run through Pistorius' testimony and it seems he was at pains to point out how slowly he approached the danger in the bathroom once he screamed for Reeva to phone the police.

I've taken the liberty of sketching out the relevant sections of his testimony below:

EVIDENCE IN CHIEF (session 3, Tuesday 8th April) - ​

1.16.20 –​

“Just before I got to the passage I remember slowing down.”​

1.17.15 –​

“As I entered the passage where the closet is to the bathroom, it was at that point that I was overcome with fear and started screaming and shouting for the intruders to get out of my house. I shouted for Reeva to get on the floor, I shouted for her to phone the police.”​

1.18.00 -​

“I slowly made my way down the passage”​

EVIDENCE IN CHIEF (Session 4, Tuesday 8th April)​

3.23 –​

“I didn’t have as much mobility on the tiled surfaces.”​

4.20 –​

“As I slowly peered into the bathroom I could see that the window was open”​

4.40 –​

“I was leaning, slowly scuffling, my back against the wall”

He then describes how he peered round the corner to look at the shower and upon realising there is no-one there backs up against the far wall…​

6.35 –​

“At this point I started screaming again for Reeva to call the police….. I stood there for some time. I’m not sure how long.... I just stayed where I was and carried on screaming...didn’t know where to point the gun…and then I heard a noise from inside the toilet….before I knew it I had fired four shots at the door."​

CROSS EXAM (Friday, 11th April)​

2.30.05 -​

“I rushed towards where the passage and bedroom meet my lady, just before you enter the passage.”​

2.31.15 -​

PT – “And that’s why you stormed, you wanted to shoot”
OP – “We are talking about two separate times in the evening, I didn’t storm to the bathroom my lady, I ran to where the passage began and then I walked extremely slowly and cautiously to just before the corner where the bathroom passage is.”​

2.34.35 -​

OP: “I started screaming and shouting my lady as I entered the passageway.”
PT: “And what did you shout and scream?”
OP: “I screamed for the persons to get out of my house, I screamed for Reeva to phone the police, I repeated it several times.”​

2.48.35 -​

“…I didn’t form an arc and trim the wall, I walked all the way down the closet to the last cupboard…I slowly moved forward along the carpet to where the tiles begin.​

____________________________________________

So on his evidence we know he slowed down to an extremely slow pace from just before the passage. That he then shouted at Steenkamp to call the police at that point. He then continued extremely slowly down the passage screaming ‘several times’ - each of which would have taken at least some portion of time. He then must have taken a moment to become quiet and to peer into the bathroom passage. After discovering it to be clear he then slowly edged to the last closet, moved forward (slowly scuffled) down the bathroom corridor with decreased mobility and peered into the bathroom. He then took a moment to note the absence of enemies, an open window and a closed bathroom door. He then backs up to the wall where he stays for some time, and again starts screaming for Steenkamp to phone the police.

To me this seems ample time for a person in the toilet to comply with his initial request to phone the police.

Links

Evidence in chief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMMdyuXfFUg (session 3 Tuesday 8th April)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmadaSpdQdI (session 4 Tuesday 8th April)


X Exam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBvvA4cL5Zc (Friday 11th

That was Oscar talking in Oscar-Speak.
As I am the #1 translator, I can tell you all that O-Speak of going slowly means he chased after her real fast.

ETA: Which he can do either on stumps or prosthetics.

 

[BritsKate]

BIB 1-2

I know, here I go with semantics again, but how in the world does he rush and run on his stumps yet still feel so terribly vulnerable on them due to limited mobility? His duplicity is galling to me.

BIB 3

Thank you! Agree, agree, agree. And RS would have called the police and it would have been on her phone if OP's version were true.

RBBM
Semantics aside...it doesn't ring true that someone feeling vulnerable due to a physical disadvantage would either rush or run to confront intruder(s) anyway. With no way of knowing what they were up against?

(I know others disagree but I just can't see my husband, much less mobile, ever literally going out of his way of an exit to confront an intruder. He relies on me to be his legs so he'd make sure I got out to get help for all of us.)

 

[Val1]

Do you really think a window sliding open and a door closing would sound exactly like gunshots to Dr and Mrs Stipp? I don't believe so.

No I don't.

 

[liesbeth]

If she really thought it was a home invasion herself, maybe not.

And, maybe she was standing at the locked door listening to see if she could figure out what was going on and what all the ruckus was about?

But, why didn't she call the police on her cell phone? Maybe you can't in SA?

Maybe she couldn't understand what he was saying?

If you were in the toilet and you heard your partner, out of the blue, screaming to "call the police" and "get out of my house" would you keep quiet? What if you heard your partner's voice in the bathroom just outside the toilet?

 

[supernovaNic]

RBBM
Semantics aside...it doesn't ring true that someone feeling vulnerable due to a physical disadvantage would either rush or run to confront intruder(s) anyway. With no way of knowing what they were up against?

(I know others disagree but I just can't see my husband, much less mobile, ever literally going out of his way of an exit to confront an intruder. He relies on me to be his legs so he'd make sure I got out to get help for all of us.)

Especially when you look at this diagram. All the corners he had to go around, where the intruder could be ... . It's just unbelievable. In the freaking dark!

http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/pistorius.jpg?w=620&h=464

 

[James50]

I agree Oscar displays histrionic behaviour eg in court - blocking ears, vomiting, head holding, hiding behind the bench and during testimony his howling, sobbing, crying especially when it occurred during testimony not related to Reeva.
It sounds like Aimee is displaying some similar behaviours in court which isn't acceptable no matter how hard it is. Victim's family members often step out of court during particularly difficult testimony out of respect for the court.

BUT re BIB
I take great exception to your stereotyping of people with disabilities. In my work I have met and cared for many many people with disabilities and my experience is completely the opposite. I don't think Oscar's histrionics are a part of being disabled but rather a personality trait and probably exacerbated by his family pandering to him and his behaviour through his childhood and into adulthood.

Bazing. Not stereotyping. I used the word 'often', and I said this in an effort to better understand his behaviour in a matter of fact way. If we know why people are the way they are, it can only help us be more understanding and cast light on why they behave a certain way. I honestly believe that the key to cracking this case is to understand OP's psychology.


As for your experiencece and mine differing, well I guess that's true. I don't say that his histrionics are necessarily a bad thing, but rather I see them as a mere coping mechenism when he's in vulnerable situations i.e. perceived danger to himself or uncertainty. Which is why he's also having so much trouble in court. There's a grave danger there that he might be convicted when he feels he's innocent, hence the histrionics.

 

[Bazinga]

OP and any other potential murderers need to think about the consequences of their actions. I only feel sympathy for his dead girlfriend. I feel no sympathy for him at this point. It was a cold rageful murder.

My sympathy is most certainly for Reeva for what she experienced on that night and for losing her life. I have no sympathy for Oscar and his behaviour only makes me dislike him more and more. His histrionics and self pity are a slap in the face to Reeva's grieving family and friends. I certainly want Oscar to be punished. From what I've seen so far I believe he knew it was Reeva in the toilet and I feel he should be found guilty of the full murder charges against him and jailed accordingly.
But I don't feel jail should automatically come with rapes, attacks and AIDS and if those in SA justice system assume it does or can then I would worry that this could affect the judge's decision and the sentence.

 

[kittychi]

Molly, good point. I think after being cocksure for days that OP was guilty, it seemed to me that Nel was starting to come to the horrible (well, horrible for him) realisation that he might be telling the truth after all. That's why he began to talk about negligence (i.e. setting things up for culpable homicide), and, in the end, instead of saying "You say, x, y, z happened," he kept asking OP "what happened next?" and countering very little of what OP replied. He looked distinctly uncomfortable towards the end, and when OP countered his accusations, I saw him actually flinch. In finally laying down his conclusion, he was stroking his nose. Don't know what a psychologist would say about that, but it's often saif that people stroke their nose when they're lying.

! Wow. It is fascinating to me that you are watching and observing the same trial I am. !

 

[Val1]

I don't think it was Oscar screaming, but that is just my opinion. I've wondered, though, if when someone is shot in mid-scream, can that scream continue for a second or so, even if the person dies with that shot? I'm thinking in terms of a reflex continuing, kind of like a chicken that keeps running when it's head is cut off (sorry for the gory analogy). Sure, Reeva could not scream after the head-shot, but if she was already mid-scream, could that scream continue until its natural end?

The distance may play a part on how fast the sound carried, correct? The gunshots would obviously be faster than the voice.

 

[Carmelita]

Yes, I know they are. By duplicity, I didn't mean between those two words I meant actually two things - his deceitfulness and the idea that he can rush and run in parts of his version, but has limited mobility in other parts. My use of the word was in itself a duplicity, but only in that I meant the word to mean two things. :wink:

Oscar's being able to rush and run about as a disabled man does not exclude him from having limited mobility. Just the opposite, in his rushing and running about he still had limited mobility. So they are neither objectively duplicitous, deceitful or mutually exclusive statements.

 

[TipDog]

My sympathy is most certainly for Reeva for what she experienced on that night and for losing her life. I have no sympathy for Oscar and his behaviour only makes me dislike him more and more. His histrionics and self pity are a slap in the face to Reeva's grieving family and friends. I certainly want Oscar to be punished. From what I've seen so far I believe he knew it was Reeva in the toilet and I feel he should be found guilty of the full murder charges against him and jailed accordingly.
But I don't feel jail should automatically come with rapes, attacks and AIDS and if those in SA justice system assume it does or can then I would worry that this could affect the judge's decision and the sentence.

BIB

I don't think it would affect her decision but it will most definitely be used when it comes time for sentencing and appeals. His vulnerability will be at front and center, as it should be if Roux is worth the money he's being paid.

 

[minor4th]

I found it very interesting that the sounds of the cricket bat hits and the gunshots each sounded almost the same volume or loudness at 60 meters and 180 meters. That surprised me

 

[east2west]

I think the cricket bat was in that bathroom long before Oscar said he went to retrieve it.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

 

[liesbeth]

About Reeva's phone...

The last call was an outgoing call to OP at 17:44. Her last GPRS connection started at 20:04:17 and lasted for over 11 hours (41 000 seconds).

 

[zoran]

A nice video summary by ninemsn of Dixon being savaged. Its difficult to re watch lol

:drumroll:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/04/16/03/40/gruelling-pistorius-cross-examination-ends

 

[TrueDetective]

The other things that struck me - after the shots were fired, I don't think he did anything or said anything to establish if indeed anyone was in the bathroom. He didn't call out, listen at the door, try to open the door straight away. For all he knew, the intruder was in the bathroom but not hit and could have come out and attacked him (or whatever).

Hmm. I think 4 black talons into such a confined space would render the phantom intruder well and truly incapacitated. He knows what the result would be. Zombie stopper.

Anyway, it's a moot point as he wasn't thinking about intruders at all.