Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Gbtaketwo]

In case you missed it earlier in the thread, this is what Defence Attorney, Martin Hood, licenced firearm holder and expert witness, said on Sky news about the grouping.
------------------------

"The evidence has been that Oscar was shooting one handedly from a position where the gun was at his waist level, and in my experience, and I own more than one firearm, in order to shoot a group like that, you have to have a very firm grip on the firearm, and normally that group is with two hands. And the fact that the group is relatively small, shows that Oscar knew how to hold the fiream properly, and in all probability in my view, and if I were called to be an expert, I would say this - he held it with two hands, and he held it very deliberately to get that grouping at that level.

When you're holding a firearm with one hand, and you're in that very excited state of mind that Pistorius said he was in, you're going to have a lot of shake, and you're not going to get such a small group as that. It's going to be all over the place. The fact that it isn't, in my view suggests that he had far more control than he actually is prepared to admit".

Yes thanks for that . I spent a couple of hours reading up on posts earlier this morning and it certainly pricked my imagination . 3 out of the 4 bullets were all within say 10cm ? I just can't believe this is random one handed panic stricken shooting
Just adding here
It is even more unbelievable when you consider he was on his stumps even if he did have one hand against the wall for support

 

[turaj]

Yes I agree.
I would imagine there will be a lot of defence evidence being looked at again during this break in light of Op's and other defence testimony .

Roux has to be a very busy guy right now....if his body language during the cross of OP and Dixon is any indicator this is clearly not going as expected. He will probably go with two or three of his top people who can withstand cross and try to put the "version" back into something that has a chance of convincing the judge to be sympathetic to Oscar...ie believe his version. No question Nell will be ready for each and every one that Roux puts up and I also believe Nell has some surprises ready for the court.

 

[james83]

What is even more unreasonable and absurd is that he never once eyeballed the room or his surroundings to see Reeva...not one confirmation that she was okay....come on that to me is a no brainer and right there shows something is terribly off with his "version". That together with not one but four shorts (not random but close together) tells the story. Sleuthers can analyze the evidence and inconsistencies etc. but at the end of the day these facts remain. He did not try to find Reeva at all because he knew where she was.

Exactly, if he was 100% sure there was an intruder and 100% sure reeva was in the bed when he told her to phone the police, he would have 100% naturally believed that Reeva had escaped downstairs and would have gone to look for her, the fact that he stayed upstairs says it all .
It makes me laugh that he says he checked the bed, well who in the right mind would have stayed laying in the bed while all that was going on in the toilet?, further more he says he jumped up onto the bed with a cocked gun in his hand to check if she was there, WTF?.
Its so clearly made up, I just cant believe people have fallen for it, LOL.

 

[turaj]

Can someone outline the rest of the trial? Only know US procedures so...there will be rest of defense case including cross...is there any room to bring in additional witnesses during a rebuttal? Or is it direct to closing arguments? Do they have any limits on those closings? Just an idea of what to expect. Thanks.

 

[Viper]

Sorry can't buy it! No excuse for murder IMO. FFS these 'ideas' are only 'theories'. Let's get a grip here and not be blindsided by purported 'theories': ‎Limbic system - ‎Amygdala hijack - ‎Amygdala (disambiguation) - ‎Fear conditioning. OP should have normal executive function. Whether or not this 'phenomena' applied to OP that night no one can tell. He reported it all retrospectively! It is not a fact in this case. What has his fear conditioning been? Let's get some specific evidence. To the contrary he demonstrates that he handles fear and can focus extraordinarily well to compete at high levels in Olympics conditions etc.

Good post!

I was just thinking about how OP seemingly messed up his testimony by continually refusing to say that he intended to pull the trigger to defend himself from some real fear of a threat to his life. He was supposed to say he meant to pull the trigger! Roux had a year to pound that in to his head. But OP did not say that and his defense changed from self defense to involuntary action. Roux asked a few questions to try to refocus OPs defense, but all of his denials are on the record.

So I am now thinking that OP answered the questions exactly as Roux had told him to. Roux wants the other component of involuntary action in the mix because he is going to have a psychologist testify to all of the psychological mumbo jumbo that fits with that. I realize that it does not fit with the strict legal rule of only being able to use one defense, but that will not stop Roux from using the mental testimony to try to influence the judges and having it on the record to use in OPs appeal.

I hope all of that makes sense.

 

[soozieqtips]

From this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all

As he put together lunch for all of us — fruit smoothies, breaded chicken fillets he pulled from the refrigerator —
he mentioned that a security alarm in the house had gone off the previous night, and he had grabbed his gun and tiptoed downstairs. (It turned out to be nothing.)

I don't remember him mentioning this incident before, only the washing machine 'intruder'. Quite interesting article. This is the interviewer who was subjected to OP driving at 250 kilometres per hour (155mph), and who was told if he practised shooting more often, he could become 'deadly'.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Roux has to be a very busy guy right now....if his body language during the cross of OP and Dixon is any indicator this is clearly not going as expected. He will probably go with two or three of his top people who can withstand cross and try to put the "version" back into something that has a chance of convincing the judge to be sympathetic to Oscar...ie believe his version. No question Nell will be ready for each and every one that Roux puts up and I also believe Nell has some surprises ready for the court.

I did wonder whether some of the defence specialist would be wanting to back out or amend their viewpoints bearing in mind the evidence we have heard so far. As other FM have said top experts have a duty to the court first .
This is why I was surprised by Dixon testimony about not being told the balcony light was on he must surely have watched OP give his testimony .
Shame on him for not having a look at his brief and then making the court aware that his tests were without lights and should have been done with one on.

 

[DebinGA]

Yes thanks for that . I spent a couple of hours reading up on posts earlier this morning and it certainly pricked my imagination . 3 out of the 4 bullets were all within say 10cm ? I just can't believe this is random one handed panic stricken shooting
Just adding here
It is even more unbelievable when you consider he was on his stumps even if he did have one hand against the wall for support

... and in the dark ... despite the Stipps testimony the light was ON.

 

[shane13]

Yes thanks for that . I spent a couple of hours reading up on posts earlier this morning and it certainly pricked my imagination . 3 out of the 4 bullets were all within say 10cm ? I just can't believe this is random one handed panic stricken shooting
Just adding here
It is even more unbelievable when you consider he was on his stumps even if he did have one hand against the wall for support

BBM

Indeed GB.
And speaking of randomness (in Oscar-Speak).

1. Random initial hip shot.
2. After the hip shot that collapsed her to the ground either immediately or within a few seconds,
he just randomly waits a couple of seconds (acc to a witness) and just shoots 3 more times randomly hitting her at least twice--in her new, non-random position.
3. He just randomly decides to stop after the fatal head shot instead of emptying the clip in his "panic".

ETA: for the record, neither side going on record with the implications herein.

 

[Karmady]

Has anyone seen this 'map' before? It is rather different from the one we have had posted already. It makes more sense if this is really where Van Der Merwe lives. It also makes clearer where the Burgers live and how there were no intervening houses to block noise at the time.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/211391077/CSI-Oscar-Pistorius

I notice that diagram has a security guard checking the house (seems like routine patrol, but maybe not) and saying everything is fine at 2:20. I wonder if it was routine and, if so, how often rounds were made in light of the testimony that there was earlier arguing that went on for a long time.

I also wonder why, if it was Oscar and Reeva arguing earlier, he didn't shut the doors.

 

[DebinGA]

From this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all

I don't remember him mentioning this incident before, only the washing machine 'intruder'. Quite interesting article. This is the interviewer who was subjected to OP driving at 250 kilometres per hour (155mph), and who was told if he practised shooting more often, he could become 'deadly'.

.... from that NYT's link:

“We should go to the range,” he said. He fetched his 9-millimeter handgun and two boxes of ammunition. We got back in the car and drove to a nearby firing range, where he instructed me on proper technique. Pistorius was a good coach. A couple of my shots got close to the bull’s-eye, which delighted him. “Maybe you should do this more,” he said. “If you practiced, I think you could be pretty deadly.” I asked him how often he came to the range. “Just sometimes when I can’t sleep,” he said.
............................................................................................................
When Roux's gun expert/s testify, I hope Nel produces that shooting range's logs showing how often and how many years OP was been practicing aiming-shooting at a target there.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I notice that diagram has a security guard checking the house (seems like routine patrol, but maybe not) and saying everything is fine at 2:20. I wonder if it was routine and, if so, how often rounds were made in light of the testimony that there was earlier arguing that went on for a long time.

I also wonder why, if it was Oscar and Reeva arguing earlier, he didn't shut the doors.

Yes, there was an hourly check and at various stations along the way the guard had to "clock" that he had actually walked by. This is probably why the estate now has had no trouble (except for Oscar) since 2011.

Pieter Baba testified at 2.20 am that everything seemed normal but it would have taken very little time to walk/drive by the house. There could easily have been a lapse in the argument for a short while. I cannot remember whether the guard drives or not. I think he may have as there was reference to a "buggy" or something similar that the guard used but they do have to clock in at various points and one was outside OP's home.

 

[Emz73]

Additional "roll eyes"....my take in that sometimes the most volatile personalities who respond inappropriately in life (this OP situation being the worst case ) are the most bereaved after they act. His wailing is for many reasons and real. Many terrible killers have wailed after. Just because he is not stoic and unemotional does not mean he did not mean to do just what he did. OP is a very sick man and a threat to others.

Exactly. Our mark Bridgers cried and cried at his bail hearing. Didn't follow the trial though. He was guilty as sin.

 

[Viper]

Quote from the link:
When the court reconvenes, the next defense witness will be Johan Stander, manager of the Silver Woods Estate where Pistorius lived and the first person the athlete called after he shot Steenkamp.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/?c=&page=2

The only thing that comes to mind with Stander testifying is OPs state of mind after he killed; I'm guessing he was upset, the dramatic carrying her down the stairs, faking CPR, wanted Dr. Stipp to undo Reeva's death, blah blah blah... So I guess the defense is really going to put a lot of emphasis on psychological states now.

BTW. I would have thought that the ballistics expert would have been next. ??? Can it reasonably possibly be that the expert reconsidered and changed his opinions after watching Dixon and Professor Botha get torn to shreds by the Pit Bull? Is the DT without a ballistics expert? Hmm...

ETA: Their pathologist, who had attended the autopsy, and had been working with them for over a year won't be testifying now; something about a conflict with his schedule. It may very well be that the defense has run out of expert witnesses, other than a psychologist and or a psychiatrist.

 

[james83]

Imo as soon as you realise the bat was used before the gun it all makes sense, it really is a eureka moment.

 

[james83]

Quote from the link:
When the court reconvenes, the next defense witness will be Johan Stander, manager of the Silver Woods Estate where Pistorius lived and the first person the athlete called after he shot Steenkamp.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/?c=&page=2

The only thing that comes to mind with Stander testifying is OPs state of mind after he killed; I'm guessing he was upset, the dramatic carrying her down the stairs, faking CPR, wanted Dr. Stipp to undo Reeva's death, blah blah blah... So I guess the defense is really going to put a lot of emphasis on psychological states now.

BTW. I would have thought that the ballistics expert would have been next. ??? Can it reasonably possibly be that the expert reconsidered and changed his opinions after watching Dixon and Professor Botha get torn to shreds by the Pit Bull? Is the DT without a ballistics expert? Hmm...

No ballistic expert on the planet will testify that those shots appear to be fired in panic as O.P said on the stand, He has probably contradicted many of his own witness's before they have said a word.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Yes, there was an hourly check and at various stations along the way the guard had to "clock" that he had actually walked by. This is probably why the estate now has had no trouble (except for Oscar) since 2011.

Pieter Baba testified at 2.20 am that everything seemed normal but it would have taken very little time to walk/drive by the house. There could easily have been a lapse in the argument for a short while. I cannot remember whether the guard drives or not. I think he may have as there was reference to a "buggy" or something similar that the guard used but they do have to clock in at various points and one was outside OP's home.

That was always a little bit surprising to me until I looked at the house plans and saw that the bedroom and bathroom are are the rear of the property and the furthest point from the road where the security guard was patrolling .

 

[DebinGA]

When Dr. Stipp arrived, he encountered Stander outside (smoking iirc) and Clarice Stander in the doorway. Stipp asked if an ambulance had been called, and iirc Stander said "no".

OP testified that he'd called Stander because he couldn't lift Reeva by himself. That might make sense if his lie about finding Reeva sitting on the floor w/head on her shoulder were true, but even Dixon agreed that it wasn't true, agreeing with the PT that she was resting on the magazine rack with her head/arm on toilet seat. And calling Stander first shows clear thinking on OP's part imo, entirely selfish but exactly what a clear-thinking narcissist would do.

 

[fox1lady]

Additional "roll eyes"....my take in that sometimes the most volatile personalities who respond inappropriately in life (this OP situation being the worst case ) are the most bereaved after they act. His wailing is for many reasons and real. Many terrible killers have wailed after. Just because he is not stoic and unemotional does not mean he did not mean to do just what he did. OP is a very sick man and a threat to others.

I think his wailing was the point when we were all supposed to say "oh I see, his screaming and crying DOES sound like a woman"! Sadly for him, it didn't

 

[Cherwell]

I bet OP really, really, really wishes he'd gotten Reeva a Valentine's present ...or even just a generic "roses are red, violets are blue" card.

I'm surprised nobody thought to knock one up for him quickly. [/cynic]