Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Rumpole]

It really doesn't, you are not for a second considering the fact that your story relies on people not hearing gunfire, but hearing a bat hitting a door, it is impossible for you or anyone else to conclude how loud or not the bat strike's were, but logic suggest's they were not louder than gunfire.
VDM heard the 2nd shot's that much is clear, she heard 4 bangs, total silence and then crying.
Nhlegthwa phoned security at 3.16 because he heard a bang and then crying.
Funnily enough the Stipps who are the only people who heard both set's of sound's were directly opposite Pistorius's bathroom.
So to cut to the chase, if Oscar is telling the truth, 4 people failed to hear gunfire but did hear a bat hitting a door, believable?.

You are confused....

VDM heard explosions (gunshots) at earlier time. The "crying" she heard was much later, from the front of OP's house when all the ambulances and drama was taking place.. well after the main event.

Nobody is claiming, nor is it necessary, for cricket bat to be louder than gunshots??? The two sets of sounds were never heard at same time, comparative analysis is not an issue, but Stipps did say that both sets of bangs sounded the same, not that bat was louder?

With two events KNOWN FOR SURE to have made some sort of loud banging noise, and two sets of bangs reported by the most credible of STATE witnesses, it beggars believe that people are still in denial about the basic, simple sequence of events that night?

 

[molly333]

This is OT a bit but a while ago I posted this response and it was deleted, presumably by the moderators. Obviously, it is my opinion, but does anyone know why it may have been problematic?

Reeva wouldn't have had her hands over her head if the head wound was last.

The State's criminalist got a little carried away on that one.

One of her arms was broken and unusable.

 

[crasshopper]

So to cut to the chase, if Oscar is telling the truth, 4 people failed to hear gunfire but did hear a bat hitting a door, believable?.

Oh I do hope Nel makes this point in his closing.

 

[Feynman]

partial quote

You are confused....

VDM heard explosions (gunshots) at earlier time. The "crying" she heard was much later, from the front of OP's house when all the ambulances and drama was taking place.. well after the main event.

On the time of vdM's hearing crying "much later": Do you have evidence for your claim here?

 

[crasshopper]

Reeva wouldn't have had her hands over her head if the head wound was last.

The State's criminalist got a little carried away on that one.

One of her arms was broken and unusable.

Maybe it was just her good hand...also you don't know how usable a broken or shattered arm is in an adrenalin filled situation. Seriously injured people have dragged themselves out of the wilderness with horribly debilitaing injuries to their limbs.

 

[james83]

You are confused....

VDM heard explosions (gunshots) at earlier time. The "crying" she heard was much later, from the front of OP's house when all the ambulances and drama was taking place.. well after the main event.

Nobody is claiming, nor is it necessary, for cricket bat to be louder than gunshots??? The two sets of sounds were never heard at same time, comparative analysis is not an issue, but Stipps did say that both sets of bangs sounded the same, not that bat was louder?

With two events KNOWN FOR SURE to have made some sort of loud banging noise, and two sets of bangs reported by the most credible of STATE witnesses, it beggars believe that people are still in denial about the basic, simple sequence of events that night?

No i am not confused, there is a debate about the translation be it exploding sounds or bangs, but whatever it was she heard it 4 times followed by silence, she heard the 2nd set of sound's, Annette stipp said the exact same thing about the 2nd set of sounds in that they were followed by total silence.
People are not in denial, they are following common sense and not allowing themselves to be blinded by timelines and bangs.

 

[crasshopper]

I think I'm going to watch the Dateline on Pistorius. Toodles mes amis for now!

 

[Val1]

It's still really surprising to me. Especially if there were hourly checks and there had been loud arguing going on for an hour earlier in the evening.
If the real estate listings are correct, the entire community is 88 acres (.14 of a mile) Not that big. And a lot of the lots were undeveloped at the time. You would think sound would carry a great deal. I live in a similarly sized neighborhood with houses fairly close together like those in the photos. I've posted before, I can hear my neighbor's alarm clock lol

Maybe they are trained to ignore domestic disputes :::shrug::::

Perhaps the majority of the other residents had all their doors and windows closed so as not to diminish the effects of their air conditioners? It appears that there were only a few out of the whole estate that actually heard anything and that seemed to be due to them having their windows and patio doors open(probably no noisy air conditioner either), as was read on the security reports.

 

[Feynman]

partial quote:

So to cut to the chase, if Oscar is telling the truth, 4 people failed to hear gunfire but did hear a bat hitting a door, believable?.

Certainly believable if gunshots and bat bangs can sound confusingly similar in the given settings. Remember: The Stipps thought both sets of "bangs" were gunshots. They were mistaken on that point, and Stipp has had extensive military and gun experience.

 

[Val1]

BIB. Below is the testimony about the kicking. Mr. Nel is going to state in closing that the kicking and bat strikes were not because OP wanted to break open the door. No, they were before the gunshots, before the murder, they were left because OP hit the door two times and kicked the door to scare an already terrified and trapped victim.

Vermuelen: That would also be very difficult to say, and I doubt one would be able to say that the kicking happened before or after the shots M'Lady.

Nel: Mr Roux put to you that the only reason why the accused would have kicked the door was to open it- remember that - get it open because it was locked.

Vermeulen: Yes ..

Nel: Could there be other reasons?

Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.

I want to know if Dixon tested OP's shoulder and grey wife beater for door varnish too.:websleuther:

 

[TipDog]

Oh no they didn't.

Oh, for cry eye.

It's like the chicken before the egg argument... :scared:

Isn't the state sticking with "bat then gun?" as it was noted that it could not be determined 100% by the door itself which one actually did come first?

(By the way, James, I used your post above, but not because I'm not in agreement with you. It was just handy.)

 

[HauntsForHope]

Great Idea! think I will watch it too. Having trial withdrawl already...lol

Dateline : The Race Of His Life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUJBk8Ba3Fo

 

[james83]

Oh, for cry eye.

It's like the chicken before the egg argument... :scared:

Isn't the state sticking with "bat then gun?" as it was noted that it could not be determined 100% by the door itself which one actually did come first?

(By the way, James, I used your post above, but not because I'm not in agreement with you. It was just handy.)

Closing argument will reveal all i hope and believe.
And it's the egg for me, lol.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It would seem that the DT has changed it's mind about producing "screaming" evidence that OP screams like a girl. When Nel asked OP about the experiment OP said he did not know the names of the people or the company that conducted the experiment or who set it up; effectively distancing himself from it ever happening at all. Weird.

That does seem weird.
Do you really think they can do away without presenting some form of evidence to back up their previous statements that they would . As I said earlier as they have acknowledged the fact that screaming took place they need to answer this.
If they don't the judge will be able to take the testimony of the prosecution witnesses and conclude Reeva did in fact scream for her life, which at this point is what I believe.

 

[james83]

partial quote:
Certainly believable if gunshots and bat bangs can sound confusingly similar in the given settings. Remember: The Stipps thought both sets of "bangs" were gunshots. They were mistaken on that point, and Stipp has had extensive military and gun experience.

The Stipps position related to the bathroom has a lot to do with it imo.
I disagree with you main point, imo it's just not possible that all those people would fail to hear gunfire, but then all hear a bat hitting a door , it's not plausible at all.

 

[Emz73]

Oh, for cry eye.

It's like the chicken before the egg argument... :scared:

Isn't the state sticking with "bat then gun?" as it was noted that it could not be determined 100% by the door itself which one actually did come first?

(By the way, James, I used your post above, but not because I'm not in agreement with you. It was just handy.)

Not sure. They say gunshots at 3.17 (I think its that time) but haven't said what they think the 3 am noises were. When I asked the law professor "if the shots were 3.17 then what were the noises at 3 ? He said "dunno" !!
He said its the screams that are more damaging to OPs version.

 

[Val1]

Roux and OP said that they will provide this evidence it will be an important part of the defence? By already saying that they will provide evidence of OP screaming they have confirmed the existence of screaming during the shooting .
If they fail on this they leave the defence even more weakened than it is already.
It is very telling that they did not produce any such recording to the witnesses that actually testified a woman was screaming ,therefore whatever he does present might still not be what they all heard and therefore leave doubt.
For this reason I will be listening very carefully .

I wonder if their sound technician played with that recording too, like when Nel asked if they had enhanced the volume of the bat strikes so they would "sound" like gunshots and Dixon fumbled around in addressing that(is supposed to be bringing in the original recordings from all the sound "tests" from his pc... hmm isn't that where he searched about decibels etc to start with?), as well as how he admitted the gunshots were replicated to fire together in a fast sequence, supposedly due to the gun they were using jamming.

 

[TipDog]

Closing argument will reveal all i hope and believe.
And it's the egg for me, lol.

Really? See now, I've always contended that it's the Rooster that comes first. ;-)

 

[james83]

Really? See now, I've always contended that it's the Rooster that comes first. ;-)

Lol.
If there isn't a thread on this site for this debate then there should be.

 

[HauntsForHope]

It may have escalated, started with kicking, then to the bat, then the gun, back to the bat to finally pry it open.