Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Deleted member 102539]

BIB

I think she'd have locked the door and then gotten down and away from the door if she thought there was an intruder (as per OP's version). I believe Nel suggested this as well, didn't he? The idea of her being up against the door suggests a familiarity with the danger. And I could imagine her screaming but also pleading with OP to back away and calm down. I don't think she believed he would actually shoot her until he did, in her hip, then her screaming would have intensified as she fell back over that magazine rack. But it's hard for me not to think that his gun wasn't present in her mind. She was primed, and not for the reasons OP claims, IMO.

I can even envision a scenario in which OP becomes quiet and she might have thought he'd left the bathroom, thus pressing herself up against the door to listen, just before the first shot.

Oh, such a horrible fate for her. Just thinking of all of it makes my stomach hurt.

We have seen a pic of Reeva on the shooting range. She knew about weapons and I'm sure, she knew the sound of unlocking. It could be, she only heard this in the toilet and for her immediately was clear, that OP would shoot now.

 

[lisasalinger]

Has any one been told why the towels were used on the floor? Did op get them to save the floor? Surely his instinct would not have bothered with trivial matters when a loved one is at stake?
Makes no sense he used towels in such a intense situation

OP's story was that he pulled the carpet (I think he meant towels) under her so he could place her gently on the floor.

 

[james83]

Oscar Pistorius had *acting lessons before standing trial for the murder of his lover Reeva Steenkamp, claims a top journalist.

The Sunday People reports the accusation emerged in an open letter to the blade runner by former South African Sunday Times columnist Jani Allan.

Her claim that a famous actor pal is coaching him comes after Reeva’s mother June suggested Oscar could be acting.

British-born Jani wrote: “I have it from a reliable source you are taking acting lessons for your days in court.

"Your coach has an impossible task.

“Oscar, you are the latest in a long line of faux heroes. Like so many, you have betrayed your people and disappointed your fans.”

<modsnip>

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...paralympic-star-3434141#.U1Lp4GNx0FM.facebook

 

[lisasalinger]

I think you are exaggerating what Nel said, and besides that summary contains a lot that is NOT what the STATE testimony states, but rather supposition that is yet to be proved.
You (Nel) have omitted some of the evidence presented the STATE witnesses. (inserted in RED.)

I really do think things look quite different when you include ALL the evidence, and it helps further if you have a presumption of innocence (As the Judge should have)

I'm not exaggerating anything. I am quoting him from testimony. Go back and watch it. This is exactly what Nel said to the court as he concluded his cross-examination.

 

[jay-jay]

Interesting article .. he does seem to have a lot of problems sleeping, by the sounds of it, and gets up to all sorts in the middle of the night because of it. That was written in Jan 2012, and even then the author of it picked up on several really worrying issues with him.

... something else in that article, first paragraph ..

"Oscar Pistorius trains inside a converted garage at the home of his personal trainer, a former professional rugby player. Iron pull-up bars and a variety of ropes and pulleys are bolted to brick walls. Free weights are lined up on the floor, along with hammered-together wooden boxes that serve as platforms for step-ups and standing jumps. Some of the equipment is clamped to an exterior wall of the garage, opposite an uncovered patio; when it rains, athletes just carry on and get soaked. &#8220;It&#8217;s old-school,&#8221; Pistorius said as we drove up to the place early one morning. &#8220;Some of the guys who train here, they bang it so hard, they often get sick in the garden. Nobody judges them.&#8221;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all

.. seems like getting sick is fairly bog standard for him and his training mates then ..

 

[44ALLAN]

If we believe Dr Stipp is a credible witness, then we must apply the same belief to his testimony

When Dr Stipp was asked if he believed OP wanted Reeva to live, he replied, 'He definitely wanted her to live, yes'.

After he'd shot her with 3 talon bullets !!
Get real mate fgs ?

 

[delilah]

IMO he will not take the rap for anything short of an acquittal it is not in his nature. I wonder about the DT ballistics expert when he did his tests did he take into account the now one -handed maverick on stumps firing those shots. Will he be willing to put his reputation on the line to give an opinion that will support that version.

Agree he won't want to take the rap for anything, not even tasha's, but did you see him during Dixon? He must be getting more worried by the day, surely.

I missed the bit about shooting one handed. Can someone let me know when this came up? I thought OP demonstrated firing two handed during cross.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Hi Guys, just a quicky for anyone interested. I am taking the opportunity of the adjournment to do some further digging on the web and came across a site that has links to most of the SA courts and judgments. It has the details on permission and objections to our OP case being broadcast and his objections.
Sorry I am unable to paste on kindle so this is the address for anyone interested.

www.saflii.org/cgi-bin/disp.pl?file=za/cases/ZAGPPHC/2014/37.html&query= Oscar Pistorius

After reading it I'm guessing it will be the first point for any appeal with OP having stated he believes broadcasting would lead to an 'unfair' trial.

For all those like me digging for answers I also recommend the Dateline documentary on YouTube and OP's biography, I'm pretty sure Minor 4th would agree having read, that it is very telling. Especially (IMO) the letters written to him by his Brother and Father! :twocents:

WISHING ALL MY FELLOW SLEUTHERS A HAPPY AND PEACEFUL EASTER. :seeya:

 

[weeeva]

Interesting article .. he does seem to have a lot of problems sleeping, by the sounds of it, and gets up to all sorts in the middle of the night because of it. That was written in Jan 2012, and even then the author of it picked up on several really worrying issues with him.

I have also read an article by a guy who had interviewed OP a few years before all this happened. In the interview OP said that the only time he feels vulnerable is a night time without his legs.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It also doesn't ring true to me that he was struggling to pick her up, simply because of his sheer strength and fitness (and being on his p.legs at the time, too .. as I suspect he had been all evening/night) .. there is no way he wouldn't have been able to pick her up, not with all his muscles and extreme fitness training.

There deffo must've been another reason why he called Stander.

OP needed a car and a driver??

 

[Britlaws]

That sounds more credible that OP's version (versions). The phone thing has bugged me though. OP said she had it in the toilet with her. I don't know why he offered that information if it was true, because the question of why she had it in there at 3am would have come up.

If she did have it, she didn't use it because either she didn't have a signal, or she was too freaked out by OP going nuts outside the door and couldn't calm herself enough to dial. But maybe it was never in the toilet with her, and she dropped it in a panic when she was trying to get to safety in the toilet, with OP right behind her. Was Reeva's blood on her phone, do we know? If she was holding it when she got shot, wouldn't that have come up already?

Oh, Martin Hood, Sky guy, said he was really surprised that Roux hadn't prepared Dixon more thoroughly. He said Nel is known to be meticulous about detail and goes through everything with his witnesses at least 4 times so there's no chance of them being under prepared. But Roux didn't seem to have prepared Dixon at all.

BBM - I don't think she did have the phone in the toilet with her but I think OP thought she did, which is why I think he went berserk with the gun. He didn't give her time to actually talk to anyone but had to cover himself in case she had attempted to call the police, hence the 'Reeva call the police' bit of his 'version'.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I find that claim very hard to believe, unless this was an extended family member of the third cousin-twice removed variety. I picture a whole cabal of Pistorii reading through witness statements together, devising the best response to anticipated questions, quizzing OP, critiquing his answers, trying out different ointments in search of the best one to cause tears, etc.

I wondered about the especially crying of all and then read. My thoughts were, that I could imagine OP had not been telling for a whole year because of his shame and his fear, his family would recognize the truth.

 

[TipDog]

I'm sure he regretted it as soon as he'd fired the shots. Whether his pleading to god was genuine or otherwise, it seems immaterial to me.

Sorry for your loss, tip dog.

Thank you, Delilah. It's been many years. I can think of him and smile.

 

[soozieqtips]

Years ago, a loved one of mine passed away suddenly at a very young age. I was devastated. The morning the police called me to tell me his body had been discovered, I begged the policeman to say he was alive. Then, alone in my apartment after receiving the news, I begged God, the universe, the powers of be to please take both of my legs, but give me back my loved one. I was crying and saying this aloud to the open room. Begging to lose limbs so that my loved one would not be dead. There was no rationale behind it, because of course I didn't want to lose both my legs.

I know...totally different circumstances. I'm talking about someone who was very close to me, who died of natural causes and I made no promises. But my point is that any one of us could say aloud all kinds of things to deities a plenty in these instances (even atheists may do it). I wouldn't put too much stock into OP making those promises with any real intent. He just likely wanted the circumstances not to be as they were (RS alive and none of that evening to have happened).

Rage, lash out, regret...

Very sorry about that TipDog and I do understand about praying to God in such circumstances. You hadn't joined this site when I wrote about my mother being murdered (by someone of authority) when I was a teenager. On the way to the police station, I kept praying to God too to let her be alive, even though the policeman on the phone had already told me she was dead.

The difference though is that my mother's murder and your loved one's death were nothing to do with us. My mother's murderer wanted her dead, because for her to live would have risked exposing him and his colleagues for something very serious. It was a deliberate murder and there's no way he'd have been praying to God to let her live because he wanted her dead.

OP didn't want anything to affect his image in the media and maybe Reeva threatened to mention him at her talk for abused women the next day and that's what set him off. It's all speculation, but the fact he did nothing to get help for her, choosing to call the estate manager, and then making sure things from his safe were removed, indicates to me that he wasn't interested in saving Reeva at all.

 

[TipDog]

Very sorry about that TipDog and I do understand about praying to God in such circumstances. You hadn't joined this site when I wrote about my mother being murdered (by someone of authority) when I was a teenager. On the way to the police station, I kept praying to God too to let her be alive, even though the policeman on the phone had already told me she was dead.

The difference though is that my mother's murder and your loved one's death were nothing to do with us. My mother's murderer wanted her dead, because for her to live would have risked exposing him and his colleagues for something very serious. It was a deliberate murder and there's no way he'd have been praying to God to let her live because he wanted her dead.

OP didn't want anything to affect his image in the media and maybe Reeva threatened to mention him at her talk for abused women the next day and that's what set him off. It's all speculation, but the fact he did nothing to get help for her, choosing to call the estate manager, and then making sure things from his safe were removed, indicates to me that he wasn't interested in saving Reeva at all.

Oh, goodness. That is terrible to hear. Very sorry about your mother. I hope the murderer is behind bars or no longer on this earth.

I'm in agreement with you that OP did nothing to save her. But he knew she was dead upon getting through the bathroom door. She died very shortly after the shot through her brain. So, any honest efforts to "help" her were futile anyway, and more likely he'd gone into "fix-it" mode (fix it for himself, not her). All the more reason for him to make empty promises that he knew he couldn't keep to God. God is evoked in so many instances where life is threatened or lost, pretty universally. And I'm just suggesting that it didn't matter what his prayers (the words) were, they were all empty, if you think about it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I really would love to know what they think. Not that it has any relevance on the case, nor will we ever likely know for sure... it's just a curiosity thing.

Either way, they have chosen to stand by him and that's certainly their prerogative. They did have some very interesting facial and body expressions along the way.

I wonder how the family is able to every day endure this nightmare!
Don't know, whether my family (inclusive me!) would have that strength.

Of course, much more I feel with June Steenkamp.

BTW Most times I only read texts and have rare opportunity to see videos.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

And Roux hasn't proved it. He did promise he would produce evidence that OP screamed like a woman... but he never did.

I think that I recall Nel asking OP on the stand whether the DT had made such a recording, and OP confirmed that they had. If that is the case, is it still possible for the DT to present that recording?

If there is such a recording and the DT doesn't present it, this seems to imply that the DT did not get the "evidence" that they wanted when they made the recording. Ergo, OP could not scream sufficiently life a female to support his story.

Such a recording is not "an experiment". The conditions (a sound studio??) and a subject with a strong vested interest in screaming like a female, are too different from the instance that this recording is supposedly replicating.

Such an "experiment" is more like evidence manufacturing.

 

[crasshopper]

...

I really do think things look quite different when you include ALL the evidence, and it helps further if you have a presumption of innocence (As the Judge should have)

In such a case, I just wonder how or why a judge could have a presumption of innocence when he admittedly pulled the trigger 4 times, although in the latest versions the target was the door and not the intruder.

I'm truly puzzled by this expectation.

I think that I recall Nel asking OP on the stand whether the DT had made such a recording, and OP confirmed that they had. If that is the case, is it still possible for the DT to present that recording?

If there is such a recording and the DT doesn't present it, this seems to imply that the DT did not get the "evidence" that they wanted when they made the recording. Ergo, OP could not scream sufficiently life a female to support his story.

...

I'm waiting for this recording/evidence too.

 

[K.T]

Excellent post Hope. I don't think OP had the time or presence of mind to think how he was going to cover things up. Especially in the frame of mind he was in at the time, and the eye witness accounts of his emotional state.
I believe that it was himself he was worried about when he ventured into the bathroom and Reeva would have been an afterthought, but he can't say that in court can he? Something else struck me from the very beginning and I have never mentioned it before because it is difficult to put into words the feeling I have about it. It was the witness account of how OP was pleading with god to let Reeva live, and trying to make a bargain with god by promising to be a good person etc. (I can't remember exactly what he said), if he would let Reeva live.
This strikes me as real. I don't know if anyone else on here has tried to bargain with god in times of great worry or grief. I have, more than once, and to me, that heart rending plea coming from a person's mouth is real. I know many will say that he was just pleading to be saved from jail, but it strikes me as being genuine.

Slightly different take:
Pistorius was desperately praying to God, begging for help get him out of this horrendous self-made situation. And he knew it looked appropriate.

Yet he still couldn’t stop one of his most annoying, controlling and arrogant lines popping out: Dr Stipp said he was praying to dedicate her life to God if she survived.

Thanks Pistorius. He’s has just recklessly or intentionally filled Steenkamp with four fatally exploding bullets, yet he STILL just can’t stop himself telling her what to do.

 

[Feynman]

And here I thought you and I had so much in common. Then you go and prove me wrong, lol.

Thank goodness we agree about the trial!

Told ya.