Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Really?]

Well, you have to show me how he proved pre-meditation, because I can't see it.

good golly......

OP stated he thought an intruder was behind the door...and shot at door (ok, well the gun shot the door)......gun went off knowing a person was behind the door....pre-med.....boom

 

[Val1]

It would prove he told the truth or he lied.

A lot better to prove it than to leave it up to the good will of those who are judging him.

This wouldn't happen in this country. Everything is recorded and the ambulance gets to where it is going very quickly--'the golden hour.'

The fact that the prosecutor didn't refute this with witness testimony means he couldn't.

As stated numerous times, the cell phone OP used went "missing" for about two weeks and it was revealed at one point(I don't recall if it was during testimony) that recordings are only kept for 7 days. Providing they were still available, then I'm pretty sure the judge received them in the data that Moller made sure she knew how to reference.

 

[Carmelita]

Don't really agree with the comparison here. If someone living in SA would like to make the statement that OP could not get timely service on his a/c if he wanted it (ie was important to him) then I'll go with that. His multi million dollar home is part of a secured compound and I'm sure they have contracts for every kind of service possible. Frankly I think it would have been a good question for him on the stand as clearly not having a/c and opening windows renders that "fear" factor useless. There are very few countries where money and status goes with getting things done fast if you want it.
Having been in some situations where a/c did not work or did not exist I still slept with windows/doors closed if I felt any threat of break in...so either the threat of break in in that secure compound was minimal or he was reckless and not really afraid at all. This is in response to original post by Carmelita.

I respect your opinion, but I also know as an American I cannot apply the standard of services and options available to wealthy Americans, to other parts of the world.

Wealth certainly is a game changer in every country but it is simply not a magic bean.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

Yes, we don't know because the prosecutor never put them on the stand.

See how that works?

You're not supposed to imagine. You're supposed to know.

If you don't know, it goes to the defense--presumption of innocence.

Again I can't see how it would do anything for the States case?

 

[kittychi]

Yes, we don't know because the prosecutor never put them on the stand.

See how that works?

You're not supposed to imagine. You're supposed to know.

If you don't know, it goes to the defense--presumption of innocence.

IMO you have to have a good imagination to believe Oscar's concocted story.

 

[BabaJ]

Just a slight correction He jumped onto the bottom of the bed at the left hand side with a cocked gun in his hand, manoeuvred himself over to the right hand side all the time facing the bathroom passage (and deducted from this that Reeva wasn't on the bed) felt around the curtain area for Reeva with cocked gun in hand, went back to the bathroom with cocked gun in hand to shoulder the door, then went back to the bedroom with cocked gun in hand, unlocked and opened the balcony doors with cocked gun in hand, put on prosthetics and socks with cocked gun in hand and then went back to the bathroom where he put the gun down.

Surprising, especially if some of those guns go off without touching the trigger:floorlaugh:

 

[turaj]

Do you know that a well respected journalist has said that she has heard he has been having acting lessons?

http://citizen.co.za/161613/oscar-like-eugene-terreblanche-jani-allen/

No trained professional here but if I were his "acting coach" or his "shrink" I would tell him to stop leaning forward with his hands in his ears like a very disturbed child and sit up like a man. I know this is not doing anything except making the judge wonder if this guy could even function in society. Also Roux should stop it. I guess they figure it is better than the bucket but if he can't take it...confess and stop the insanity. His story is so unbelievable he can't stand to listen to it himself~~

 

[molly333]

Very often the proof in the pudding of Oscar not being a fearful guy is the fact that he had the patio doors open. He lived in reality, in the real world, in SA where by all accounts it was a hot muggy night, one can pretty safely assume that others had their windows open also otherwise it is not much of a logical leap to believe that they would not have heard any screams hundreds of yards away. All of these people are wealthy so having problems with air conditioning is possibly a chronic and common problem.

Oscar left this home, he took off his prosthetics, he allowed multiple people in his home, he showered (how vulnerable is that), he didn’t have armed guards, his home was not a fortress, he left his second story patio doors open, none of that means he was not paranoid about his own security. Being paranoid and diligent about his own security does not mean he stood sentry 24/7 with a cocked gun, it simply means he was more diligent and concerned about his safety than most folks would reasonably be, even the folks who shared his gated community.

He was also prone to react to perceived danger immediately and without hesitation. His disability lent itself to that fear and to his “imminent danger” responses.

Something interesting is Oscar’s beloved quote form his mum, (this is not verbatim) “The man who crosses the finish line last does not lose the race. It is the man sitting in the stand who has not joined the race.” Oscar would never fail to respond to a perceived danger. It is not in his nature or his learned behavior. Did he act recklessly even if he thought Reeva was an intruder? In my mind yes.

I remember one of the witnesses [I think it was the Johnsons] quickly came to the conclusion that it was a home invasion and the family was being murdered and they were next.

Wherever did they come up with that conclusion if it were not a reasonable one given the nature of crime in SA?

Oscar was not the only one who was paranoid.

 

[dianebowen]

First noises bat hitting door.

Woman screaming.

Gunshots.

OP pries open door with bat, puts crack through bullet hole D.

Not complicated at all.

Agreed! Occam's razor.

 

[Carmelita]

I would agree that others may have had windows open and I think testimony may have indicated that; however then that clearly speaks to their perception that security in their compound was good and again does not support OP's paranoia. So...doubtful any of them would hop up and open fire with deadly bullets without confirming the target.

I agree that it is doubtful that one of them would have responded in the way Oscar did, but, I come to a different conclusion, which is Oscar's response to a perceived intruder is evidence of Oscars paranoia.

 

[asanque]

On the stand he said he phoned Stander in order to help him pick Reeva up so he must have seen Reeva and her injuries before he phoned Netcare since he phone stander first.

Given he called Stander before the ambulance (and did not call the police), I'd take anything OP says with a grain of salt.

 

[Fuskier]

Round up of the week which I thought was interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8jrG08YJcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbKeIrZNgHE

Thank you for these posts Ben25. Very helpful IMO.

BTW the info re the OP's head injury following a boating accident, that he was in a coma and required facial reconstruction is significant. Did OP sustain a brain injury? Was there neuropsychological testing done following the boating accident? If OP sustained some permanent brain injury, this could be a 'contributing factor' yet unexplored. It may possibly have bearing upon his performance in the cross examination and other implications for his cognitive/emotional functioning and capacity in dealing with difficulties i.e. rage.
My opinion only.

 

[BlueShoe]

I don't see how any of this helps the fact that the crime rate and murder rate is through the roof in SA.

Would I feel safe there? NO.

Hmmmm. Then, apparently the law regarding the shooting of possible intruders should be different for high crime areas than those with lower crime?

Since Oscar was in a "low-crime" gated community I guess the bar should be set extra high for him to be able to shoot the "intruder."

 

[Hatfield]

This case really does need a thread for "Testimony GEMS From the Pestorias Trial"
It seriously does. It will go down in history as a classic.

The other day when OP was trying to describe he "heard movement" and Nel tried to get him to understand you hear sounds and you dont hear movement because movement is an action not something you would hear.

OMG it was classic. I was ROFLMAO

 

[molly333]

good golly......

OP stated he thought an intruder was behind the door...and shot at door (ok, well the gun shot the door)......gun went off knowing a person was behind the door....pre-med.....boom

That might be something in SA law, but I don't think it is pre-meditated murder of Reeva.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

That might be something in SA law, but I don't think it is pre-meditated murder of Reeva.

What? Where do you think this trial will be judged? Again have you read the charging documents..

 

[DebinGA]

No trained professional here but if I were his "acting coach" or his "shrink" I would tell him to stop leaning forward with his hands in his ears like a very disturbed child and sit up like a man. I know this is not doing anything except making the judge wonder if this guy could even function in society. Also Roux should stop it. I guess they figure it is better than the bucket but if he can't take it...confess and stop the insanity. His story is so unbelievable he can't stand to listen to it himself~~

Good point. Acting like someone holding a live grenade with finger about to pull the pin, right in front of the judge, doesn't seem like the wisest way to convince her to let him go free.

 

[soozieqtips]

I remember one of the witnesses [I think it was the Johnsons] quickly came to the conclusion that it was a home invasion and the family was being murdered and they were next.

Wherever did they come up with that conclusion if it were not a reasonable one given the nature of crime in SA?

Oscar was not the only one who was paranoid.

It was Dr Stipp, the radiologist, not the Burgers. And Stipp came to that conclusion because of the nature of the screaming. He heard a female screaming, oh, and a male screaming as well - and at one point, he heard male and female voices at the same time. DT hasn't yet shown evidence that OP screams like a woman (even though Roux assured the court he would provide evidence). Aside from that, I don't suppose Stipp's first thought was that OP was murdering his g/friend, and so probably did think it was intruders. Doesn't mean they were paranoid about home security just because they didn't jump to the conclusion that a famous athlete was in the middle of killing his g/friend.

 

[dianebowen]

No, like many other features it has been virtually ignored.

My own guess is either a huge slamming of the door and/or smashing of the door with cricket bat caused them to weaken and then fall off.

It's unusual to see such a neat line but there may have been a relative weakness at that edge due to the frame and hinges and shock waves from a severe slam is the most likely cause IMO.

The whole house was gradually falling to bits it seems.

Certainly on that evening/morning...

I recall sometime back on WS, someone saying that it was testified that these tiles were taken off in process of removing door. However, I myself did not read or hear that item of testimony.

 

[soozieqtips]

It's not a crime, and there are probably a great many fans that will stand by OP regardless.

The few people on WS that think OP didn't kill Reeva intentionally have no connection with OP whatsoever, as far as I'm aware.

I prefer not to be labelled as it can easily be misconstrued that I believe OP is innocent of all charges.

BBM - I haven't labelled anyone.

I made a generalisation that there are OP supporters here, and that's correct - there are.