Trial Discussion Thread #30

[soozieqtips]

Can Baba's evidence be trusted? He was adamant that he had phoned OP first, but the phone evidence proved that it was OP who phoned Baba first.

BBM - I don't see why not. He got the call sequence wrong, which was obviously a mistake and something he wouldn't deliberately lie about because the sequence would be proved by phone records. To invent a conversation that didn't take place "Everything's fine" would require Baba to be calculating and have some sort of grudge against OP. If that were the case, and Baba was intentionally malicious, I'm sure OP would have told his DT that Baba had a grudge against him so his testimony couldn't be counted. So I think the actual conversation happened and he just got the call sequence wrong.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Not forgetting the additional Firearms Control act related charges, which has rather hefty sentences as stand alone crimes.

I don't see a suspended sentence or blanket acquittal in Oscar's future and for HIM to 'beat this' that is the only outcome he will accept.

I felt he should have tried to plea out a culpable homicide charge from the get go. But not Mr Big - only acquittal on each and every charge will be good enough for him.

It's not going to end well for him, simply because he truly believes this 'little inconvenience' will soon be over, with his reputation intact. Not guilty on all counts, and free to woo sponsors and chase his life once more.

Barry should break it to the delusional chap, that this is not going to happen - ever. His life as he knew it, is over.

Yes totally agree.
I and other FM have thought and discussed this . He has been seriously deluded into believing he was untouchable and was so keen to protect his perceived future earnings that he has probably at least doubled his sentence ... Hopefully
His refusal to accept responsibility for anything not even watching is just unbelievable
I would seriously love to know whether it is his decision alone to plead not guilty to everything or others around him .

 

[shane13]

Hi Sorrel, I stepped away but I just saw this awesome post that you did on OPs absolute failure to even tell the court one of the fundamental things that he needed to tell them, namely he did not say that he shot four times intentionally at the attacker to prevent what he felt sure was an imminent threat to his life!

Say Goodbye, Cheerio, Au Revoir, Hasta la Vista Baby to putative self defense. It is out!

Again I implore you people to find all you can about the reasons Pros gave in dropping all charges against bro Carl P.

Or look for all I wrote here last year on this. I am trying to prevent your heartache should something untoward occur in ruling.

People here should brace themselves for any possibility regardless of what has been presented in court, because again, this one runs deep.

 

[DebinGA]

I'm looking forward to the male/female screams that were intermingled.

I hope Roger 'Waters' Dixon's music producer can pull this off.

For anyone to believe Oscar screamed like woman, then a man, then a woman and then combined the two in a cacophony of sound........... :scared:

That's easier to believe than Reeva never making a sound after OP heard the "noise".

 

[molly333]

BBM: They have to prove that he can scream like a grown woman...blood curdling screams, terrified for her life.

How do you supposed they plan to do that?

I know how I would do it.

Record Oscar screaming like a woman.

Bring it into court.

Play it for the Judge.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I do understand what he was saying. Should I be worried? Nel was tying him in knots but this is the core of what he was saying:

"...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..
"

He's saying he had the gun for defense, not to go out and murder someone. He never wanted to kill anyone. He fired reflexively out of fear, when he heard someone coming out of the door, in self defense.

And, it was all a terrible, terrible accident.

No one came out of the door. It was not self defense as there was no imminent threat or attack.

Had he fired once, 'accident' might work.

The problem is 4 shots, with Black talon ammo, small cubicle, 3 serious wounds - ALL of which could have caused her death.

Did his finger get stuck on the trigger? And why did he bring his arm down to correct himself after the first shot? Then he changed angle.

He also knew well enough not to fire a warning shot in case it ricocheted and hit HIM. :banghead:

At the worst, this is murder (direct intent)
Or its Dolus Eventualis......he knew his actions might cause serious injury of death, yet he continued in any event (I refer to the my point above.....re: ricochet. That proves he was of full faculties - end of)
At the least, it's culpable homicide - which carries a 15 year max sentence.

Accident? One shot maybe............not 4.

 

[DebinGA]

Yes totally agree.
I and other FM have thought and discussed this . He has been seriously deluded into believing he was untouchable and was so keen to protect his perceived future earnings that he has probably at least doubled his sentence ... Hopefully
His refusal to accept responsibility for anything not even watching is just unbelievable
I would seriously love to know whether it is his decision alone to plead not guilty to everything or others around him .

And OP himself testified that at the verified time the sites were accessed, Reeva was busy in the kitchen making chicken stir-fry, while he was upstairs "changing clothes". That poor IT guy read out the site names in court, leaving no doubt about what they were.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Again I implore you people to find all you can about the reasons Pros gave in dropping all charges against bro Carl P.

Or look for all I wrote here last year on this. I am trying to prevent your heartache should something untoward occur in ruling.

People here should brace themselves for any possibility regardless of what has been presented in court, because again, this one runs deep.

Gosh I do no hope not . I don't know much about his brothers case but from the snippets I have seen I was shocked that he walked away from it .

 

[james83]

BBM: They have to prove that he can scream like a grown woman...blood curdling screams, terrified for her life.

How do you supposed they plan to do that?

Show him his legal fees.

 

[steveml]

Perhaps I can assist you here. Mr Baba was giving evidence in his 2nd language.

In his mind and interpretation of what he was saying, he was in fact stating that when he called OP, it was the FIRST time they had spoken.
He discounted the call from OP's home, because no words were exchanged. (OP in any event made that call accidentally - he was looking for his friendlies, not Baba)

M'lady's home language is the same as Mr Baba's, and I believe she 'understood' what he meant.

Gerrie should have saved Baba here though, as I was immediately aware that Baba was misinterpreting all questions, and had been from the day he gave his statement. In his mind, the first time they spoke counted as the first 'call' - because talking is phone call to Mr Baba, not crying.

I guess you wouldn't have needed a translator, the translator herself seemed to struggle herself at times.

Being born and bred in South Africa, what is your common dialect?

 

[Irisha]

The face being attached to the head, it was a very bad head injury, including coma and facial reconstruction.

Most probably included frontal lobe injuries, which would be very relevant to this trial.

Where does it state OP was in a coma? It states he will totally recover. He was ventilated, and surgery. You would never know by looking at him that this happened to him.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

 

[G.bng]

Again though...by most legal expert's opinions, Oscar's best chance at an acquittal would have been involuntary IF they had supporting evidence. Roux is hardly new to lawyering.

So, they either don't have the evidence to support an involuntary claim or have sat on it until now hoping to somehow implement it into putative, which doesn't and shouldn't need it.

They'd said at the time his brain was functioning normally so I think it likely he made a full recovery and lacks the necessary evidence to support an involuntary defence. They would have, should have, and could have gone that route otherwise.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

BIB
I'd been pondering about that... whether we had in the offing a novel take... a belt and braces pick n' mix sorta defence! But then Roux did appear to be leading OP very firmly back to the straight and narrow after his debacle with his Nel; "Mr Pistorius, what did you mean by "accident?", so guess not but then in this trial with so many bizarre happenings... who knows!

 

[Viper]

Starting at 1:14:04

I remember pulling the trigger and the rounds going into the door...

That's where the firearm was pointed [at the door]...

I did not fire deliberately...

...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..

I didn't have time to think...I wouldn't have wanted to ..shoot at someone...

[Then Nel asks--[the gun went off accidentally]

That's the opposite of what I'm saying...

What I said was that the noise coming from the bathroom made me pull the trigger...

I can remember pulling the trigger...

The firearm was aimed at the door at that time...

I didn't have time to think if I wanted to or didn't want to [shoot the people coming out of the toilet]. I heard a noise coming from inside the toilet and I discharged the firearm.

[interaction]

I'm not sure about a second...if Reeva had come out or she had spoken to me or ...I wouldn't have fired.

[interaction]

I thought the robbers were in the toilet or on the ladder.

[I fired] because I heard a noise coming from the toilet that I interpretated as someone coming out to attack me.

I started shooting at that point.

[interaction]

I'm getting confused with this accidentally or not accidentally...I've said time and time again what I perceived and what I thought. I don't understand ...it was put to me yesterday it was by accident and now it's put to me it wasn't by accident. I don't understand...I'm saying that I didn't intend to shoot. My firearm was pointed at the door because that's where I believed that somebody was. When I heard a noise, I didn't have time to think and I fired my weapon. It was an accident.


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Thursday 10 April 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

OK, someone please tell me regarding the BIB, where in all of that is OP saying that he used putative self defense? It just is not there!

I'm bookmarking this page! LOL!!!

 

[Emz73]

I do understand what he was saying. Should I be worried? Nel was tying him in knots but this is the core of what he was saying:

"...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..
"

He's saying he had the gun for defense, not to go out and murder someone. He never wanted to kill anyone. He fired reflexively out of fear, when he heard someone coming out of the door, in self defense.

And, it was all a terrible, terrible accident.

Doesn't his defence say differently? He meant to shot because he thought his life was in danger but accepts he did unlawfully.

 

[soozieqtips]

Ok, let me try.

1. Has Johann been in court? I believe Mr Manalou was in court, Oscar's other friend. Haven't heard Stander mentioned? I might be wrong.

2. M'lady and her assessors are entitled to ask for clarification on certain aspects at any time. This might happen closer to the end, deliberation etc.
In fact, M'lady (if she is not happy for example, with either of the ballisiticians - for the PT and the DT, she can call a 2rd independent Ballistician in for 'clarification'. It doesn't happen often, but it does. The phone and it's concealment was mentioned by the PT fella who did the message retrieval. He stated they only found out about the phone accidentally and that there was NO information on it. Gerrie asked Oscar who charged his phone in the kitchen. It's on record, and M'lady should be able to to do the maths. Because the state did not know who removed the phone, it's tough to accuse, but it's on record that it disappeared and the inference is, this was done maliciously.
I know who I suspect in removing it.

3. Nel in his closing, should give the exact timeline, as well as the sequence of events, including relevant bits of additional. Gerrie Nel is a very 'simple' prosecutor truth be told. He will focus on a certain number of points he needs to prove - he doesn't get bogged down in things he's not 100% sure of.
The closing argument should however be the first time we get to hear the state's case in all it's glory. But don't expect him to tie up every loose end there is. He will string together what he feels is sufficient to convict. But expect a few additional bits. (Just to give you an idea - most of the criminal defense chaps in SA felt that Gerrie had got enough out of Oscar after his 2nd day on the stand and that he could finish up....sometimes we just want more I guess. I'm the same)

4. The political ramifications of this trial are huge. If justice is not SEEN to be done, there will be protests on the streets. Whether Oscar has friends in high places or not (although I doubt he has any longer, or else this trial would never have taken place.......) there are millions of disgruntled South Africans looking at the Criminal Justice System. M'lady has a wonderful reputation, and I can't see her being swayed. She will be fair, and her judgement will be detailed and thorough, so that the man in the street understands clearly, why she had ruled in this manner. <------ that bit - ESSENTIAL.

To be honest though, and thinking about it now, if powerful people wanted to protect Oscar, this case would never have made it to trial I don't believe. Because it is now in the 'public domain' (like Dixon's door :floorlaugh the repercussions of Oscar being acquitted of ALL charges and walking free would see mass action on a grand scale. Our govt can't afford that either.....

Tried to answer as honestly and best I could. :blushing:

Thanks Cape. Re: number 1 - yes, I thought I'd heard that Johan Stander had been in court listening in, but maybe it wasn't him and was Mr Manalou, as you suggested. I suppose Stander can say, a la Dixon, that he hasn't been following the trial because he has no TV and doesn't read newspapers :floorlaugh:

Good to hear you don't feel the Judge will be swayed and will be seen to do justice no matter what. If OP gunned down Reeva deliberately, after terrorising her for goodness knows how long, he deserves to pay for that crime. And Reeva's family need to see justice done so they can try and get on with whatever shreds of their lives they have left.

 

[james83]

I do understand what he was saying. Should I be worried? Nel was tying him in knots but this is the core of what he was saying:

"...I fired the gun out of fear, that at the time I interpreted it as someone coming out of the bathroom...I didn't mean to pull the trigger, so in that sense, it was an accident..
"

He's saying he had the gun for defense, not to go out and murder someone. He never wanted to kill anyone. He fired reflexively out of fear, when he heard someone coming out of the door, in self defense.

And, it was all a terrible, terrible accident.

LOL, 4 shots by accident with a pause after the first shot?, 4 shots by accident that happened to hit in close proximity to each other?.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Again I implore you people to find all you can about the reasons Pros gave in dropping all charges against bro Carl P.

Or look for all I wrote here last year on this. I am trying to prevent your heartache should something untoward occur in ruling.

People here should brace themselves for any possibility regardless of what has been presented in court, because again, this one runs deep.

How do I find what you wrote on this last year? Sorry, I'm not 100% sure of how the archives work?

I would like to read that post re: Carl Pistorious. Perhaps you can re-post?

 

[jay-jay]

I've wondered if OP called Stander upon hearing the security vehicle pulling up at his house. I recall reading it only took the Standers one minute to arrive at OP's house, so they would have been traveling to his house during the conversations with Baba? Baba said he spoke with OP from within his vehicle while parked at OP's house. He saw the Standers pull up and he jumped out of his vehicle and ran behind them to OP's front door.

I'd really like to understand how the Standers arrived so quickly. Where did they live in relation to Oscar? Does anyone know?

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

I've been wondering that too .. and at that time of the morning, as well!

 

[shane13]

Don't you dare.

We should all know by now that what we actually see is often far smaller than what we don't (you know, like an iceberg sort of thing).

Cape has already in his brief time here backed up some of your views.

I'd say to you as I also would to a pro-defence poster (i daren't say OP supporter anymore!) who feels that they are being belittled and dont want or are too scared to post - not to take offence.
I am sure that the vast majority of members value your long standing contribution

BBM
1. I admire your guts in telling me what I dare not do!
2. I was pleased to see Cape in effect backing me up in some of what I've said for a long time here which fell on deaf ears mostly or got me ridiculed. Even now someone is posting about Mr Baba and who called whom first.

Which is the whole point about using anything from a phone which had no chain of custody for 16 days and which should not be allowed into evidence.

At the same time I am saddened as if my logic and clear evidence of criminal acts allowed to go on with no charges and no investigation needed another person to support me!
Everyone here should have been clamoring about this...

Finally in the matter of Mr Baba and Oscar and who called whom first. if you understand...My personal vote would be to take Mr. Baba-- an obviously honest man with much to lose over Oscar "a man with no memory of his crimes", and relying on a likely doctored phone's data...I go all the way with Mr. Baba.

In this hi-tech world, with so much evil going on beneath the surface, the simple honest, brave man like Mr. Baba or Dr Stipp must be believed instead of likely doctored, criminally stolen "data."

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I guess you wouldn't have needed a translator, the translator herself seemed to struggle herself at times.

Being born and bred in South Africa, what is your common dialect?

The translator made an awful hash of some evidence.

This is why Vermeulen came across rather badly, he decided to gun it in his 2nd language. Never a good idea in court.

We have ELEVEN official languages.

I kid you not.

English is 2nd and 3rd language to many South Africans.