Trial Discussion Thread #30

[shane13]

Sorry if I missed any posts. I just want to ask the forum regulars (oldies) what your opinion has been of the Pistorious's in court? The so called 'Team Oscar' - family, extended family, friends etc.

I know what folk back here are saying and a lot of it isn't pleasant of flattering to say the least. I'm just curious as to what people on the other sides of the various ponds and oceans think?

Are you going to be around for a few more minutes?
I am putting together "The Logic of Stealing the 5th phone"

I know it's getting late there ,but i'd rather post while you are here.

 

[sorrell skye]

Sorry if I missed any posts. I just want to ask the forum regulars (oldies) what your opinion has been of the Pistorious's in court? The so called 'Team Oscar' - family, extended family, friends etc.

I know what folk back here are saying and a lot of it isn't pleasant of flattering to say the least. I'm just curious as to what people on the other sides of the various ponds and oceans think?

IMO, OP's family appears understandably distraught.

Since you're a newbie, you're probably not aware, but Moderators have advised that any negative commentary regarding his family's courtroom demeanor is off-limits, according to the terms of service (TOS) of websleuths.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Thanks, CTC .. I'm still amazed by how quickly they arrived, though .. I mean, they have to fully wake up and then get dressed, etc, etc, and yet they were on the scene within minutes .. were they already awake for some reason? (i.e. had they already heard the disturbance/arguing earlier?). I read somewhere on this forum that OP had called Candice Stander separately .. I've no idea if that was correct or not, but I did ask at the time why OP would've done that seeing as Candice and Stander live in the same house .. and if it is the case he phoned her first, then where is the record of that call?

These Standers IMHO have always been key to this case. Hoping Barry calls Mr Stander first as he sounds pretty arrogant in his own right. The manner in which he called Dr Stipp (the poor man) stating that he would be hearing from Oscar's 'lawyer'.
This would be Oldwage I guess, considering he arrived almost as fast as the Standers. For an advocate to get his butt out of bed that time of the morning to attend a crime scene. Although he probably went when Carl called him (He defended Carl in that culpable homicide case)

But that was unprecedented as well. I worry about advocates on crime scenes. They intimidate junior officers pretty easily.

 

[BritsKate]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, SC.

OP's testimony, his behavior and witness accounts make me believe that he intentionally shot Reeva while in a rage. IMO he cannot control his rage, therefore he does not see it as his responsibility that something happened during it.

Where I AM perplexed, however, is what set him off? What made him so angry that he went after Reeva, yelled at her to get out, etc. at 3:00 in the morning? If the judge needs a motive to go beyond culpable homicide, it has not yet appeared.

Many motives have been mentioned here based on witnesses hearing arguing: jealousy of an ex-lover or an on-camera kiss or no Valentine for Reeva, but we really don't know.

This is why my theory includes drug and/or alcohol fueled rage, which of course cannot be proved.

Legally she doesn't but in a largely circumstantial case, it wouldn't hurt. I think evidence of an argument is enough on its own without the specifics of what triggered such an argument...

That said, I think murder's been proven; I believe Oscar sank his own putative lifeboat; and I thought Casey and OJ would both be found guilty. :biggrin:

 

[TipDog]

I suppose I would compare him to Scott Peterson, in relative stupidity. Just all meat and no potato's...

Oh, how I love the way you put that.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Are you going to be around for a few more minutes?
I am putting together "The Logic of Stealing the 5th phone"

I know it's getting late there ,but i'd rather post while you are here.

Yes, will be around another 15 minutes or so. Please post.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Hi Cape Town Crim :seeya:
I have thoroughly enjoyed each and everyone on your posts. Your perspective, knowledge and humour is a real boost to this forum.

I lived/worked in SA for 6 months 20 years ago...the historic year of 1994.
It was an incredible period in history to be part of. A bit of trivia from that time - Day 1 in SA, I received a greeting from Eugene's AWB welcome wagon in Pretoria - they blew the front doors off my hotel 2 hours before my arrival. <YIKES :scared:>.
Most of my waking hours during those months were spent at 40 Kruis Street, Johannesburg, the IEC HQ. But when I did come up for air, I flew to the beautiful Capetown...the most beautiful city in the world.

I have a legal-type question, I'm hoping you can help me with:

During the summer of 2013, Nel provided a list of 107 witnesses that could be potentially called to give testimony on the stand.

My assumptions with respect to ear witnesses and affidavits:

1. For each of the Silver Woods estate witnesses appearing on the list, a sworn affidavit had been taken by the police shortly after the event .
2. The affidavits were made available to both the prosecution and defence teams during the discovery phase or before.
3. All of the primary professional reports directly related to the event (post mortem, ballistic, blood stain analysis, Mamelodi and the medical report re physical and mental condition of the accused{my specific interest}, and other investigative reports) were made available to both teams during the discovery phase.

Question:
Would all of the aformentioned affidavits and professional reports be part of the courts docket/evidentiary materials to draw upon, without being formally introduced during the clinical phase of the trial?

keep on posting dear Cape!

 

[james83]

Sorry. Only saw this now.

Stander lives in the complex. He is the estate manager.

His daughter is an attorney by profession and she probably gave Oscar his first legal advice of the morning.

And we can all guess what that was "Say nothing".

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

IMO, OP's family appears understandably distraught.

Since you're a newbie, you're probably not aware, but Moderators have advised that any negative commentary regarding his family's courtroom demeanor is off-limits, according to the terms of service (TOS) of websleuths.

Thank you for the warning.

I would have put my foot in it - guaranteed. :shush:

 

[shane13]

I want to thank Mme Butterfly and Cape Town Crim for their kind words of praise.
In your honor, I release here the full logic of the 5th phone below. I have written more lengthily on this 11 months ago elsewhere, and copyrighted this and much more at that time&#8230;

The Fifth Phone:
The Power of Logic ©Shane13 2013, 2014

First let me say again that this is a form of speculation, and no proof or certainty can be involved by this use of logic. As with a trial you each have to &#8216;rule&#8217; whether it is likely true within certain bounds.

Follow the steps.

1. Taking evidence from a crime scene is a serious crime itself. It&#8217;s punishable by lengthy jail time if caught. Punishable also by disbarment if an atty does it.
2. Whoever took the 5th Phone likely knew that it was a crime with serious jail time a possible result if prosecuted. So why risk it; why take the 5th Phone?
3. Because they had to!
4. Why did they have to?
5. Because it would be worse for them if they did not!
6. What do I mean here? The person or persons who took the 5th phone had already known that they committed a more serious crime, and so faced a more serious charge if they did NOT take the 5th phone which revealed their earlier crime.
7. What could their earlier crime be? Perhaps Oscar called early on and described his assault on Reeva, or maybe she was shot once and there was a long pause. Note a year ago MSM reported a 10-17 minute gap between the 1st and last 3 shots from witnesses. Maybe there was more truth then than now?
8. Oscar may have early on called for advice to someone who then advised him horrifically that he could go to jail for a long time, if there was a living witness. Get it?
9. Anyone (say a sibling or atty) would have to race over there and get the 5th phone because its data records when they were called and possibly even their horrific advice.
10. Those who took the 5th phone had to know that they would likely get away with the crime, because of the deep nature of things.
11. So far borne out by the lack of a criminal charge or even the ordering of an investigation by Pros. and 3 judges.
12. Those in control always think that the public needs a scapegoat so W.O. Hilton Botha&#8212;who actually informed the world of crime scene theft a year ago&#8212;is made the public lapdog so as to divert away from those who took and gave the 5th phone to OIDT&#8212;Oscar&#8217;s inital defense team. One of whom has remained on with OP&#8217;s DT.
13. Once again this is logic and speculation. But now you know why the 5th phone was illegally taken and held for16 days. With&#8212;as I have proclaimed&#8212;the high probability that its data was altered a year ago. With Pros and judge going along with its data entered into trial, when it should have been disallowed as there is zero chain of custody.
14. The mention/stipulation on commencement of trial by Nel and then Roux, on March 25, and the subsequent excision of the first few minutes of all youtube videos of session 1, shows you how deep and how rotten this one runs. See if any other OP trial day&#8217;s Session 1 on youtube starts in mid-testimony of a witness. All others start with everyone standing as the Judge walks in.
15. And now you know why the guilty party had to take the 5th phone from the crime scene! ©2013 Shane13

ETA: Implicit in this is also the matter of proving Oscar's guilt as well.

 

[weeeva]

This bias you speak of is just as relevant the other way. More so in my experience.

We are not jurors or judges. We don't have to be impartial in the same way and we certainly do not have any of the same responsibilities.

We are forum members interested in an ongoing crime and now trial over a year old - digesting new information, sharing ideas, speculating, learning and developing thoughts and opinions, based on the flow of evidence and information as we go.

We don't have the same restriction to delay our opinions and judgement until the very end.
It develops, it hardens, it softens, sometimes it may even change. Completely!
It's the nature of a forum like this and it's also human nature.
If we all had to be 'unbiased' and keep quiet until the verdict and then reveal our own final verdict, it would be a bit late and a very, very quiet and empty forum..
:facepalm:

You are right, but there will always be people who are so biased they come across as conspiracy theorists. It can be frustrating separating the wheat from the conspiracy theorists. In your earlier post you said I saw OP as Mr Innocent. This is just not true. The fact is, I WANT OP to be found NOT guilty because he IS not guilty. Not because I want him to "get away with it". I genuinely want him to be innocent of premeditated murder. Perhaps this is clouding my judgement a bit, but not to the extent that I would want a guilty man to walk free. I believe there are people who want OP to be guilty no matter what the evidence points to.
But yes it would be boring if we were all the same.
I am off now to watch Pink Floyd then Extras.

 

[Carmelita]

This whole scenario of the defense needing to prove that Oscar can scream like a girl is surreal IMO. People do all kinds of unrepeatable things when there is an extreme situation. To induce Oscar to scream like a girl on command is nonsense even if there have been murmurings of the defense having a tape of such screaming.

The scream sequence, scenario, evidence is all inconclusive because of the varying testimonies.

 

[Karmady]

No one came out of the door. It was not self defense as there was no imminent threat or attack.

Had he fired once, 'accident' might work.

The problem is 4 shots, with Black talon ammo, small cubicle, 3 serious wounds - ALL of which could have caused her death.

Did his finger get stuck on the trigger? And why did he bring his arm down to correct himself after the first shot? Then he changed angle.

He also knew well enough not to fire a warning shot in case it ricocheted and hit HIM. :banghead:

At the worst, this is murder (direct intent)
Or its Dolus Eventualis......he knew his actions might cause serious injury of death, yet he continued in any event (I refer to the my point above.....re: ricochet. That proves he was of full faculties - end of)
At the least, it's culpable homicide - which carries a 15 year max sentence.

Accident? One shot maybe............not 4.

Didn't Pistorius fire the same type of gun that was used in the case we discussed earlier (the one that you posted about the cop)? I noticed what the court said about the trigger/firing in that case and I wondered whether it could come into play here, as well.

Snipped from your link:

According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm Parabellum expels bullets in rapid succession. Once the trigger is pressed, the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.1 Thus the appellant could not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot the deceased.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Hi Cape Town Crim :seeya:
I have thoroughly enjoyed each and everyone on your posts. Your perspective, knowledge and humour is a real boost to this forum.

I lived/worked in SA for 6 months 20 years ago...the historic year of 1994.
It was an incredible period in history to be part of. A bit of trivia from that time - Day 1 in SA, I received a greeting from Eugene's AWB welcome wagon in Pretoria - they blew the front doors off my hotel 2 hours before my arrival. <YIKES :scared:>.
Most of my waking hours during those months were spent at 40 Kruis Street, Johannesburg, the IEC HQ. But when I did come up for air, I flew to the beautiful Capetown...the most beautiful city in the world.

I have a legal-type question, I'm hoping you can help me with:

During the summer of 2013, Nel provided a list of 107 witnesses that could be potentially called to give testimony on the stand.

My assumptions with respect to ear witnesses and affidavits:

1. For each of the Silver Woods estate witnesses appearing on the list, a sworn affidavit had been taken by the police shortly after the event .
2. The affidavits were made available to both the prosecution and defence teams during the discovery phase or before.
3. All of the primary professional reports directly related to the event (post mortem, ballistic, blood stain analysis, Mamelodi and the medical report re physical and mental condition of the accused{my specific interest}, and other investigative reports) were made available to both teams during the discovery phase.

Question:
Would all of the aformentioned affidavits and professional reports be part of the courts docket/evidentiary materials to draw upon, without being formally introduced during the clinical phase of the trial?

keep on posting dear Cape!

Thank you for the kind words! Ah, the magical 1994 (apart from old Eugene and his minions........oh dear, at least you have some fond memories. Delighted you enjoyed CT - I tend to agree, it's a special place - but I'm biased of course....)

The state are obliged to hand over it's entire case docket to the defense, including all witness statements, expert witness reports, EVERY SINGLE note taken, every piece of paper with notes on. It exposes it's entire case before the trial kicks off.

The defense do nothing of the sort in terms of sharing ANYTHING WHAT SO EVER with the state. The defense has a right to 'silence'. The state will not know who or what the defense will be claiming, stating, calling, using etc.

It is the advantage an accused person is afforded in our system (I find it dreadful.....on so many levels!)

This is why the defense have had a year to try and counter all the state's evidence. The state play a guessing game as to what the defense will do, and who they will call.

However, should the defense for example, call a psychologist. The state are entitled to apply to the court to re-open their case in order to rebut the evidence of said psychologist etc.

 

[Karmady]

This whole scenario of the defense needing to prove that Oscar can scream like a girl is surreal IMO. People do all kinds of unrepeatable things when there is an extreme situation. To induce Oscar to scream like a girl on command is nonsense even if there have been murmurings of the defense having a tape of such screaming.

The scream sequence, scenario, evidence is all inconclusive because of the varying testimonies.

There was another case recently in the US where the screams of the defendant were at issue. I watched the expert testimony on that issue and they confirmed that it would be unreliable to try to recreate the screams.

 

[BritsKate]

You are right, but there will always be people who are so biased they come across as conspiracy theorists. It can be frustrating separating the wheat from the conspiracy theorists. In your earlier post you said I saw OP as Mr Innocent. This is just not true. The fact is, I WANT OP to be found NOT guilty because he IS not guilty. Not because I want him to "get away with it". I genuinely want him to be innocent of premeditated murder. Perhaps this is clouding my judgement a bit, but not to the extent that I would want a guilty man to walk free. I believe there are people who want OP to be guilty no matter what the evidence points to.
But yes it would be boring if we were all the same.
I am off now to watch Pink Floyd then Extras.

Respectfully, I believe this is incredibly incorrect. I believe the overwhelming majority would prefer Reeva had not been killed at all but, lacking a time machine, would at least prefer she hadn't been killed by someone she loved and trusted.

 

[Carmelita]

No one came out of the door. It was not self defense as there was no imminent threat or attack.

Had he fired once, 'accident' might work.

The problem is 4 shots, with Black talon ammo, small cubicle, 3 serious wounds - ALL of which could have caused her death.

Did his finger get stuck on the trigger? And why did he bring his arm down to correct himself after the first shot? Then he changed angle.

He also knew well enough not to fire a warning shot in case it ricocheted and hit HIM. :banghead:

At the worst, this is murder (direct intent)
Or its Dolus Eventualis......he knew his actions might cause serious injury of death, yet he continued in any event (I refer to the my point above.....re: ricochet. That proves he was of full faculties - end of)
At the least, it's culpable homicide - which carries a 15 year max sentence.

Accident? One shot maybe............not 4.

But this is not the question before the judge, the question before the judge is given Oscar’s state of mind with all that entails including his physical disability was it reasonable for Oscar at that moment in time to feel that his and Reeva’s life were in imminent danger and did Oscar genuinely believe he was acting to protect himself and Reeva.

The black talon bullets are meaningless if Oscar thought there was a clear and present danger, should he have unloaded his gun with less lethal ammunition? This argument doesn’t seem to be reasonable to me.
One shot or 4 shots are also inconsequential in a heat of the moment shooting. A bigger question to me is why stop at 4.

That he was able to reason has already been established, that he was not in a state of terror has not been proven.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I want to thank Mme Butterfly and Cape Town Crim for their kind words of praise.
In your honor, I release here the full logic of the 5th phone below. I have written more lengthily on this 11 months ago elsewhere, and copyrighted this and much more at that time…

The Fifth Phone:
The Power of Logic ©Shane13 2013, 2014

First let me say again that this is a form of speculation, and no proof or certainty can be involved by this use of logic. As with a trial you each have to ‘rule’ whether it is likely true within certain bounds.

Follow the steps.

1. Taking evidence from a crime scene is a serious crime itself. It’s punishable by lengthy jail time if caught. Punishable also by disbarment if an atty does it.
2. Whoever took the 5th Phone likely knew that it was a crime with serious jail time a possible result if prosecuted. So why risk it; why take the 5th Phone?
3. Because they had to!
4. Why did they have to?
5. Because it would be worse for them if they did not!
6. What do I mean here? The person or persons who took the 5th phone had already known that they committed a more serious crime, and so faced a more serious charge if they did NOT take the 5th phone which revealed their earlier crime.
7. What could their earlier crime be? Perhaps Oscar called early on and described his assault on Reeva, or maybe she was shot once and there was a long pause. Note a year ago MSM reported a 10-17 minute gap between the 1st and last 3 shots from witnesses. Maybe there was more truth then than now?
8. Oscar may have early on called for advice to someone who then advised him horrifically that he could go to jail for a long time, if there was a living witness. Get it?
9. Anyone (say a sibling or atty) would have to race over there and get the 5th phone because its data records when they were called and possibly even their horrific advice.
10. Those who took the 5th phone had to know that they would likely get away with the crime, because of the deep nature of things.
11. So far borne out by the lack of a criminal charge or even the ordering of an investigation by Pros. and 3 judges.
12. Those in control always think that the public needs a scapegoat so W.O. Hilton Botha—who actually informed the world of crime scene theft a year ago—is made the public lapdog so as to divert away from those who took and gave the 5th phone to OIDT—Oscar’s inital defense team. One of whom has remained on with OP’s DT.
13. Once again this is logic and speculation. But now you know why the 5th phone was illegally taken and held for16 days. With—as I have proclaimed—the high probability that its data was altered a year ago. With Pros and judge going along with its data entered into trial, when it should have been disallowed as there is zero chain of custody.
14. The mention/stipulation on commencement of trial by Nel and then Roux, on March 25, and the subsequent excision of the first few minutes of all youtube videos of session 1, shows you how deep and how rotten this one runs. See if any other OP trial day’s Session 1 on youtube starts in mid-testimony of a witness. All others start with everyone standing as the Judge walks in.
15. And now you know why the guilty party had to take the 5th phone from the crime scene! ©2013 Shane13

Thank you for sharing this. I understand your thinking and logic perfectly. I'm going to have a good think about this. A very good think. Some of it fits in with my thoughts on the removed phone in terms of why it was so important to take it off the scene before discovery.

Thank you for posting this.

 

[jay-jay]

* can I just quickly point out that I keep getting Clarice Stander's name wrong .. I keep saying Candice and I've no idea why :blushing::facepalm: (I'm dreadful with names ..!)

 

[Carmelita]

OK, someone please tell me regarding the BIB, where in all of that is OP saying that he used putative self defense? It just is not there!

I'm bookmarking this page! LOL!!!

Just a copy and paste but here is the answer;



Again I will go back to my perception that Oscar is simply not very bright.

He did not dismiss his putative self-defense with his testimony; he merely is confusing his language. He is applying his present knowledge to his past situation and speaking in a manner that transposes the two.