Trial Discussion Thread #30

[Emz73]

I want to thank Mme Butterfly and Cape Town Crim for their kind words of praise.
In your honor, I release here the full logic of the 5th phone below. I have written more lengthily on this 11 months ago elsewhere, and copyrighted this and much more at that time…

The Fifth Phone:
The Power of Logic ©Shane13 2013, 2014

First let me say again that this is a form of speculation, and no proof or certainty can be involved by this use of logic. As with a trial you each have to ‘rule’ whether it is likely true within certain bounds.

Follow the steps.

1. Taking evidence from a crime scene is a serious crime itself. It’s punishable by lengthy jail time if caught. Punishable also by disbarment if an atty does it.
2. Whoever took the 5th Phone likely knew that it was a crime with serious jail time a possible result if prosecuted. So why risk it; why take the 5th Phone?
3. Because they had to!
4. Why did they have to?
5. Because it would be worse for them if they did not!
6. What do I mean here? The person or persons who took the 5th phone had already known that they committed a more serious crime, and so faced a more serious charge if they did NOT take the 5th phone which revealed their earlier crime.
7. What could their earlier crime be? Perhaps Oscar called early on and described his assault on Reeva, or maybe she was shot once and there was a long pause. Note a year ago MSM reported a 10-17 minute gap between the 1st and last 3 shots from witnesses. Maybe there was more truth then than now?
8. Oscar may have early on called for advice to someone who then advised him horrifically that he could go to jail for a long time, if there was a living witness. Get it?
9. Anyone (say a sibling or atty) would have to race over there and get the 5th phone because its data records when they were called and possibly even their horrific advice.
10. Those who took the 5th phone had to know that they would likely get away with the crime, because of the deep nature of things.
11. So far borne out by the lack of a criminal charge or even the ordering of an investigation by Pros. and 3 judges.
12. Those in control always think that the public needs a scapegoat so W.O. Hilton Botha—who actually informed the world of crime scene theft a year ago—is made the public lapdog so as to divert away from those who took and gave the 5th phone to OIDT—Oscar’s inital defense team. One of whom has remained on with OP’s DT.
13. Once again this is logic and speculation. But now you know why the 5th phone was illegally taken and held for16 days. With—as I have proclaimed—the high probability that its data was altered a year ago. With Pros and judge going along with its data entered into trial, when it should have been disallowed as there is zero chain of custody.
14. The mention/stipulation on commencement of trial by Nel and then Roux, on March 25, and the subsequent excision of the first few minutes of all youtube videos of session 1, shows you how deep and how rotten this one runs. See if any other OP trial day’s Session 1 on youtube starts in mid-testimony of a witness. All others start with everyone standing as the Judge walks in.
15. And now you know why the guilty party had to take the 5th phone from the crime scene! ©2013 Shane13

ETA: Implicit in this is also the matter of proving Oscar's guilt as well.

What happened or was said in the first part of session 1,?

 

[liesbeth]

Some people in a true state of terror can reason. It would depend what his mind was doing. There are many cases of people being terrified and still thinking clearly to get themselves out of horrific situations. Being in terror and thinking rationally are not mutually exclusive.

Amanda Berry was in terror but she still used her reasoning skills to escape a monster, she was in sheer terror the entire time she was trying to get out of the door or get someones attention though.

How does one in a true state of terror have the ability to reason? E.g., if he could reason that a warning shot might ricochet and hit him, he was then cognizant of his surroundings and, I believe, of his actions.

This was no accident.

Anyone who has ever been in a car accident or hijacked, attacked or had a gun in their face will tell you that your mind works quite clearly while this is happening to you.

It's as if you're in a bubble and time slows down and you can think and you can reason. And afterwards your memories of the actual event is crystal clear like a slo-mo video.

Then, when it is over, the feelings happen. Terror and fear and the shakes. You feel sick. And your memories of what happens during this stage are vague.

That is why I can't believe OP's description of that night. It doesn't ring true. If he was honest in describing his actions that night, he would have said that he was in "combat mode" and that he was thinking and reasoning before he shot Reeva.

 

[Carmelita]

Thanks Carmelita and I too am pleased it's someone else's decision. In addition to what you say about not establishing where RS was, he knew someone was behind the door but did not bother to find out who before unleashing a lethal rain of bullets. It would have been horrific to be subjected to that. But that aside, I am convinced he knew it was her in there. There was never any 'intruder', and his moment of terror came after he fired. It was the moment of anger and frustration immediately prior that led to this sorry and sad situation IMO.

You could well be right. I don't think that the evidence establishes that Oscar deliberately murdered Reeva in cold blood.

I can't imagine firing a gun with out knowing with 100% certainty that my partner was not where my gun was aimed. That said I am not convinced that Oscar did not believe with 100% certainty that Reeva was in bed or at least not the person in the bathroom.

If I knew with 100% certainty that the only other person that was in the house was not the person behind the bathroom door I would not have hesitated to shoot if I thought that they were opening the door. It is an intruder it is 3 am I am not about to find out or let my loved one find out what the intruders intentions are.

 

[soozieqtips]

Here is an article which alleges OP took acting lessons:
http://nypost.com/2014/04/20/pistoris-took-acting-lessons-before-crying-on-stand/
Pistorius took ‘acting lessons’ before crying on stand
By David K. LiApril 20, 2014 | 1:43pm
"...Allan said Pistorius’ version of events still represents a cruel, cold-hearted attitude"...
“The implication of this is that it would have been more acceptable to shoot an intruder the way you did,” Allan wrote. “Execution from behind a closed door.”...

BBM - Good grief. I hope he asks for a refund!

 

[TipDog]

Some people in a true state of terror can reason. It would depend what his mind was doing. There are many cases of people being terrified and still thinking clearly to get themselves out of horrific situations. Being in terror and thinking rationally are not mutually exclusive.

Amanda Berry was in terror but she still used her reasoning skills to escape a monster, she was in sheer terror the entire time she was trying to get out of the door or get someones attention though.

Amanda Berry was not in a state of terror when she escaped. She waited for a long time (years) to find an opportunity to get out and was in a heightened state of fear and survival mode, but very clear-headed. Her life was not in imminent danger at the time of her escape (Castro was not there at the time). No similarities to OP.

OP is claiming that he believed his life was in imminent danger and his terror was so great that he pulled the trigger involuntarily. That is without conscious thought. I simply can't buy that he was without conscious thought, yet he could reason well enough to fully understand the possible ramifications of a bullet ricocheting off the tub. It is too far fetched for me, personally, to believe that he then could not reason well enough to understand the full ramifications of four black talons shot through a door behind which a human stood. Pure nonsense - and another reason to think he's lying.

 

[Emz73]

according to OP

Yes interestingly can't find any picture of the boat or him recovering. Some papers say he recovered quickly and injuries were minor. Just fixing his nose and jaw.

 

[Carmelita]

Anyone who has ever been in a car accident or highjacked, attacked or had a gun in their face will tell you that your mind works quite clearly while this is happening to you.

It's as if you're in a bubble and time slows down and you can think and you can reason. And afterwards your memories of the actual event is crystal clear like a slo-mo video.

Then, when it is over, the feelings happen. Terror and fear and the shakes. You feel sick. And your memories of what happens during this stage are vague.

That is why I can't believe OP's description of that night. It doesn't ring true. If he was honest in describing his actions that night, he would have said that he was in "combat mode" and that he was thinking and reasoning before he shot Reeva.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think the human mind is far too diverse and complex to state that "anyone" would act one way or another in a given situation.

 

[Viper]

Mostly I am Ok with the case being decided on the evidence. In my mind the evidence this far is not indicative of a guilty of PM. I'm from a family of gun owners where there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, I am overly cautious as I would like all gun owners to be. Yes I know that is not the reality of the world.


That said I don't know if CH is proven at this point given the extenuating circumstance of Oscars disability and the ever present pervasive fear that seems to be prevalent in SA due to the frequency of home invasions. That is for the judge to decide. DO I think objectively that Oscar is guilty of CH yes. But subjectively I am on the fence. I have a huge problem with him discharging a firearm when he did not know where Reeva was.

If there really was an intruder and Oscar had killed him, I would find him not guilty, period. The problem for me is that I am not convinced that Oscar did not 100% believe he was defending himself and Reeva.

BIB. OP is not disabled. I have asked you before to tell me what OP is not able to do, you have not responded. Others have, they say he is unable to tell the truth.

BIB. Regarding the high crime rates and home invasions in SA, you should read the link below:

Quote:
However, at the heart of the defence is an assumption that the high crime rate in South Africa, coupled with Pistorius’s vulnerable state as a disabled person, rendered his actions reasonable.

Snipped

Pistorius lived in one of the many gated communities which have sprung up in response to the perceived threat of violent crime against middle class people. Often built in an identical faux-Tuscan style, houses in such communities are usually also kitted out with an elaborate alarm system, as was Pistorius'. Such communities are typically surrounded by a high wall with an electric fence on top; the entrance to the community is always strictly controlled.

It was exactly because Pistorius lived in a gated community that he could sleep with the windows of his bedroom open. That he lived in such a place therefore presents a major difficulty for the defence. Most middle-class South Africans not living in such communities perform elaborate rituals at night to lock doors and security gates, and to activate alarm systems linked to the offices of private security companies on 24-hour call in the event of the alarm being tripped.

http://theconversation.com/the-pistorius-defence-and-the-fear-that-grips-white-south-africa-25559

 

[shane13]

Yes interestingly can't find any picture of the boat or him recovering. Some papers say he recovered quickly and injuries were minor. Just fixing his nose and jaw.

the alcohol shown is in videos

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes interestingly can't find any picture of the boat or him recovering. Some papers say he recovered quickly and injuries were minor. Just fixing his nose and jaw.

BBM - They might have had to fix his nose 'cos it was already getting too long :liar:

 

[shane13]

What happened or was said in the first part of session 1,?

Nel saying Pros got the 5th phone frm DT after they had it for 16 days, taken from the crime scene.
Roux acknowledging this.

 

[redheadedgal]

The face being attached to the head, it was a very bad head injury, including coma and facial reconstruction.

Most probably included frontal lobe injuries, which would be very relevant to this trial.

"Everything can be repaired surgically," said Anchen Laubscher, the principal medical officer of the emergency service that evacuated Pistorius. "He is fine. His brain is functioning normally. He will soon be discharged and taken home to make a full recovery."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/pistorius-athletics


this man has a history of an explosive temper and being trigger-happy. how many more excuses for shooting an innocent and defense-less reeva will be found now that the one above has been ruled out? smh.

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB. OP is not disabled. I have asked you before to tell me what OP is not able to do, you have not responded. Others have, they say he is unable to tell the truth.

BIB. Regarding the high crime rates and home invasions in SA, you should read the link below:

Quote:
However, at the heart of the defence is an assumption that the high crime rate in South Africa, coupled with Pistorius’s vulnerable state as a disabled person, rendered his actions reasonable.

Snipped

Pistorius lived in one of the many gated communities which have sprung up in response to the perceived threat of violent crime against middle class people. Often built in an identical faux-Tuscan style, houses in such communities are usually also kitted out with an elaborate alarm system, as was Pistorius'. Such communities are typically surrounded by a high wall with an electric fence on top; the entrance to the community is always strictly controlled.

It was exactly because Pistorius lived in a gated community that he could sleep with the windows of his bedroom open. That he lived in such a place therefore presents a major difficulty for the defence. Most middle-class South Africans not living in such communities perform elaborate rituals at night to lock doors and security gates, and to activate alarm systems linked to the offices of private security companies on 24-hour call in the event of the alarm being tripped.

http://theconversation.com/the-pistorius-defence-and-the-fear-that-grips-white-south-africa-25559

BBM - I wonder how many other nights he happily slept with his doors open. I doubt that was the very first night, which means he wasn't in constant fear the other nights either :jail:

 

[Emz73]

the alcohol shown is in videos

Ta I'll look for videos of it.

 

[Suthrnqt]

That phrase is at the end of many posts that explain or detail it's running deep. E.g look for my recent post on "randomness."

I have read all I can find, and now understand. Thanks so much. I, for one, enjoy all your posts. I have never ridiculed you or any other poster. I believe we all have useful info to add to the discussion since we all come from different walks of life and many different countries.
I also believe Oscar is guilty as he*l and that he knew who he was shooting. However, I will not be surprised if he is found not guilty, just because of who he is. We have seen celebrities get away with murder (literally & figuratively) time and time again here in the US. MOO

 

[Viper]

You could well be right. I don't think that the evidence establishes that Oscar deliberately murdered Reeva in cold blood.

I can't imagine firing a gun with out knowing with 100% certainty that my partner was not where my gun was aimed. That said I am not convinced that Oscar did not believe with 100% certainty that Reeva was in bed or at least not the person in the bathroom.

If I knew with 100% certainty that the only other person that was in the house was not the person behind the bathroom door I would not have hesitated to shoot if I thought that they were opening the door. It is an intruder it is 3 am I am not about to find out or let my loved one find out what the intruders intentions are.

BIB. That is irresponsible thinking and a sorry excuse linked to what OP says happened, IMO. Before posting that did you stop to consider that it could have been a neighboring teenager looking to steal or a homeless drunkard that had stumbled his way in there? And if it were you seem to be fine with taking their lives. Hey, you were scared, a life is the price they have to pay for causing your fear, right? Shaking my head...

 

[Carmelita]

Amanda Berry was not in a state of terror when she escaped. She waited for a long time (years) to find an opportunity to get out and was in a heightened state of fear and survival mode, but very clear-headed. Her life was not in imminent danger at the time of her escape (Castro was not there at the time). No similarities to OP.

OP is claiming that he believed his life was in imminent danger and his terror was so great that he pulled the trigger involuntarily. That is without conscious thought. I simply can't buy that he was without conscious thought, yet he could reason well enough to fully understand the possible ramifications of a bullet ricocheting off the tub. It is too far fetched for me, personally, to believe that he then could not reason well enough to understand the full ramifications of four black talons shot through a door behind which a human stood. Pure nonsense - and another reason to think he's lying.

I was not comparing Amanda to Oscar I was simply giving an example of a person in terror acting and thinking rationally.

Amanda was in terror during her escape she has stated so and those first on the scene have stated so.

I never said that Oscar could not understand the ramifications of firing his weapon into the toilet.

Oscar has never even said that he did not understand the ramifications of firing his weapon. Due to his incompetence in communicating he has indicated that he never meant to kill anyone even an intruder. That is interpreted by me to mean he wised that even if it had been an intruder in his home he had no blood lust simply a desire for him and Reeva to stay alive. He wished he were never put in the position to fire into the toilet where he believed an intruder was located.

 

[TipDog]

We will have to agree to disagree. I think the human mind is far too diverse and complex to state that "anyone" would act one way or another in a given situation.

I do believe that one can feel terror in the moment of absolute fear for one's life and, yes, humans don't all act the same in these circumstances. But acting in "combat mode" or "survival mode" is far more believable in OP's case. Heading toward the perceived threat meant he fought and didn't flee (when he had the means to), so believing him to be in a state of terror, one in which he is both reasoning and then not reasoning seconds later, just doesn't make sense - especially considering he didn't identify the threat nor face a weapon or attack of any kind. He just heard a noise.

Actually, he's just lying. (IMO)

 

[soozieqtips]

Some people in a true state of terror can reason. It would depend what his mind was doing. There are many cases of people being terrified and still thinking clearly to get themselves out of horrific situations. Being in terror and thinking rationally are not mutually exclusive.

Amanda Berry was in terror but she still used her reasoning skills to escape a monster, she was in sheer terror the entire time she was trying to get out of the door or get someones attention though.

Her captor wasn't even there when she tried to escape! She was escaping from someone not present. That's not even remotely similar to OP taking the decision to arm himself and shoot Reeva dead because he heard a 'noise'. Yes. 'Noise' was all that was in his affidavit.

 

[Carmelita]

BIB. OP is not disabled. I have asked you before to tell me what OP is not able to do, you have not responded. Others have, they say he is unable to tell the truth.

BIB. Regarding the high crime rates and home invasions in SA, you should read the link below:

Quote:
However, at the heart of the defence is an assumption that the high crime rate in South Africa, coupled with Pistorius’s vulnerable state as a disabled person, rendered his actions reasonable.

Snipped

Pistorius lived in one of the many gated communities which have sprung up in response to the perceived threat of violent crime against middle class people. Often built in an identical faux-Tuscan style, houses in such communities are usually also kitted out with an elaborate alarm system, as was Pistorius'. Such communities are typically surrounded by a high wall with an electric fence on top; the entrance to the community is always strictly controlled.

It was exactly because Pistorius lived in a gated community that he could sleep with the windows of his bedroom open. That he lived in such a place therefore presents a major difficulty for the defence. Most middle-class South Africans not living in such communities perform elaborate rituals at night to lock doors and security gates, and to activate alarm systems linked to the offices of private security companies on 24-hour call in the event of the alarm being tripped.

http://theconversation.com/the-pistorius-defence-and-the-fear-that-grips-white-south-africa-25559

I have answered that question and he is disabled.

The quote is not from me.

Crime happens in gated communities.