Trial Discussion Thread #30

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  • #701
I will offer just one possible scenario.

Reeva’s head could have been bleeding into the toilet, (Oscar could have flushed the toilet even though he doesn’t remember doing so) the act of gravity drawing blood from a slumped body is much slower than the heart pumping it out, her arm and hip both could have be positioned to stop the bleeding. It is most likely Oscar would have carried her in a cradled position, at some point nature takes its course and the pent up dam is released.


There are too many unknowns to to say that Reeva was alive when the arterial blood spray took place. IMO that suggestion flies against the evidence.

I agree that her head bleeding into the toilet is 1 possible. I expected there to be more blood even though there was quite a bit.

Another possible is he did clean up some and wrung it out into the toilet. I saw quite a bit of smearing and wondered if he soaked up some with a rag or shirt or towel and was ringing it out in the toilet. He may have given up once he realized people were coming to the house.

I also think her head was bent over resting on her shoulder may have cut off the blood flow to the head and then when her heart stopped pumping it didnt squirt out anymore. But leaking of blood by gravity should have produced more once she was moved.

Some sort of cleanup or most went in toilet is very possible.

That video is a very good example of how much blood could come out of a head wound. As graphic as it was it does show what we normally would expect. Although he was laying flat and she was still upright with head leaned over to shoulder. I think that did pinch off a lot of the blood flow but I still expected more there than I saw in the pics. The toilet theory is very possible.
 
  • #702
BIB 1. That is not what he said. He said Reeva died, after being shot in the head, within 2-3 breaths. He never said Reeva stopped breathing! Where did you get that?

You do realize that Reeva had two holes in her head, a severed artery in her right arm with the humerus completely fractured and just a small amount of tissue remaing to keep that arm connected to her body, a gunshot wound to her hip that fractured her hip and pelvis, right? And yet there was just a tiny pool of blood left near her right hip on the floor. Argue all you like that she was alive but her body refused to bleed out from all of those gunshot wounds, but that is just not realistic. As I said, I think I will go with what the professional says on this issue, Reeva died within seconds.

BIB2. It is my experience here that when someone refuses to open a link it usually means that they are refusing to consider any information that goes against their opinions. Like a child holding his hands over his ears refusing to hear what someone else is saying. :D

I'm not going to argue, cos it's bedtime BUT (lol) I think we're just arguing semantics. I'm completely a fan of Prof Saayman, when he said the head wound would have incapacitated her I believe him. He also said her heart was pale from the blood loss remember, that wouldn't have occurred after her heart stopped beating. And, like I said, through work I've seen people die from massive blood loss, I don't need to watch Internet videos of it.

Edited to add : pale heart muscle = bleeding out. I agree there should have been more blood, dunno where it all went.
 
  • #703
I will offer just one possible scenario.

Reeva’s head could have been bleeding into the toilet, (Oscar could have flushed the toilet even though he doesn’t remember doing so) the act of gravity drawing blood from a slumped body is much slower than the heart pumping it out, her arm and hip both could have be positioned to stop the bleeding. It is most likely Oscar would have carried her in a cradled position, at some point nature takes its course and the pent up dam is released.


There are too many unknowns to to say that Reeva was alive when the arterial blood spray took place. IMO that suggestion flies against the evidence.

A pent up dam being released would not give an arterial spurt pattern though, would it?

Once again a convenient combination of three different 'ifs' have to be employed to support OP's story. So her head wound was bleeding into the toilet but miraculously neither her hip or arm wound were bleeding. Then as she was being carried downstairs 15-20 minutes after she actually died somehow the un-kinking of a vessel resulted in something looking like arterial spurt?

I just do not think this is credible.
 
  • #704
Was there testimony to this? The Mafia part? I hardly see an out of control Oscar hearing someones mum say that she will get the Mafia after him and Oscar suddenly getting himself under control and slowing down.

I saw her mom interviewed and her mom said this on the interview. I believe her mom. Cant remember about the Mafia part but her mom did say she handed the phone to him and she let him have a piece of her mind and threatened him to not hurt daughter.

She should have left OP right after that.
 
  • #705
Was there testimony to this? The Mafia part? I hardly see an out of control Oscar hearing someones mum say that she will get the Mafia after him and Oscar suddenly getting himself under control and slowing down.

June hasn't testified but she has spoken to the media about the exchange...I don't remember the mafia being mentioned, but she did threaten him.

Only Oscar is left to know what really happened but its my experience people who are in fact abusive mostly feign being out of control - they use their anger to intimidate, in order to control. Abuse is all about control, establishing it and maintaining it. It fits with what we see when police respond to IPV incidents and again when victims have to confront their abusers in family court. The abuser is likely to appear calm and collected and the victim an unstable mess.
Many victims have lost their children to an abuser as a result of this dynamic. Lundy Bancroft is a great resource for understanding this further, if one is so inclined.

JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.
 
  • #706
A pent up dam being released would not give an arterial spurt pattern though, would it?

Once again a convenient combination of three different 'ifs' have to be employed to support OP's story. So her head wound was bleeding into the toilet but miraculously neither her hip or arm wound were bleeding. Then as she was being carried downstairs 15-20 minutes after she actually died somehow the un-kinking of a vessel resulted in something looking like arterial spurt?

I just do not think this is credible.

Some don't think about the credible, they just focus on the possible.

Another scenario would aliens. Is it credible? No. BUT is it possible? Damn right it's possible!! :D
 
  • #707
Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a few weeks but promised myself I wouldn't get involved as i'm pretty busy. However, I was reading the extensive debate about time lines and then felt the need to add my two cents, like you do.

I'm very firmly in the gun shots last camp and I think Reeva's autopsy findings make Oscars "version" implausible. Prof Saayman testified that the head shot would have been fatal and this hasn't been disputed. It's also on record that Reeva would have been able, at the most, to breathe a few breaths following it. Reeva appeared healthy so it's conceivable that her heart would have beaten for some minutes following this respiratory arrest - based on the blood splatter analysis its been stated that she died (that is, her heart stopped beating as well) at the top of the stairs, at about 3:22 am IIRC. The PT has this time at about 5 minutes after the head shots at 3:17, the DT states that the first bangs were the gunshots , so around 3 am or maybe a bit later. Based on the ear witness testimonies the time after these first bangs to Reeva's death at the top of he stairs is about 15-20 minutes. To me, the latter time already seems implausible.

However, don't forget that on post mortem Reeva's heart muscle was pale, consistent with blood loss. Prof Saayman stated that there was about a 50% chance that her arm and hip wounds would also have been fatal, even if the head shot had not occurred. To survive the limb injuries Reeva would have needed major and prompt resuscitation - intubation/ventilation, copious fluids, volume expanders and blood products, trauma surgery and medication to support her cardiac function. And even with all of this she still had a good chance of dying.

If you consider the injuries separately it's possible that with just the limb injuries she could still have some cardiac activity after 20 minutes, given that she would have been able to breathe. However, hypovolaemic shock would have occured well before 20 minutes. Had the head injury been the only injury it's less likely but probably not impossible that there would still have been some weak cardiac activity after 20 minutes, bearing in mind though that she wouldn't have been able to breathe for this time. However, the combination of the two injuries - no oxygen and severe blood loss - means that the time from respiratory arrest (just after the shot to the head) and full cardiac arrest (top of the stairs) would have been shorter than with either of these injuries in isolation. To me, the idea that her heart beat for 20 minutes after a catastrophic head wound, after she stopped breathing and after she was haemorrhaging from severe limb wounds is highly, highly unlikely. I don't know why Dr Perumal is not testifying but I can only speculate that he's refused to go along with this nonsense.

Moreover, on cross exam, Oscar stated that when he entered the bathroom Reeva was "still breathing". As stated above, Prof Saayman said she would have, at the most, only breathed a few more breaths after the head shot. The shot would have severed her brainstem and respiratory control centre instantly. The most likely sequence of events was *headshot* - breathing stops, or *headshot* - a few reflexic breaths then breathing stops. NOT *headshot* followed by oscar sreaming up and down corridors, shouting off balconies and freshly breaking down the door in time to see Reeva breathe. If he's telling the truth abut this then he either prised open the damaged door within seconds or he could already see her through a crack in the door.

And for those who are skeptical of Prof Saayman's testimony because they know someone whose brain was blown from their skull by black talon bullets who breathed/talked/made a cup of tea/whatever afterwards then I suggest you give Mr Roux a call as the DT needs you. They seem to have a sudden vacancy in this area.

All IMO, although I'm comfortable with my physiology.

Great post.
You seem almost certainly to be a medical professional, so let us hear from you often please.

Do you BTW know how long alcohol would stay in the system?
Say somone had a glass or 2 of wine at 8 PM and does not get blood drawn for alcohol till noon the following day. Would it all or most be gone by then?
TIA
 
  • #708
And that's an important video in this matter for several reasons.

1. It shows the alcoholic beverages in the boat.
2. SAPS spokeswoman is commenting on likelhood of charging OP for reckless negligence or such.
3. Later it was 'officially' said that OP was not tested for alcohol
4. SAPS and Pros. Authority did not charge OP with negligence etc.
5. Highly likely corruption/favoritism involved in #3,4 above.
6. At current trial, I recall Roux during EIC, and OP said something like contrary to reports i was not drunk or maybe even said he consumed no alcohol.
Then in afternoon, I recall he said he did have a drink earlier at [his brother's birthday] party. I noted again the contradictory statements


Re: last sentence

It was indeed after a break and much talk on this forum about alcohol being consumed at a party that Roux brought the boat accident up again.LOL
 
  • #709
ETA: Removed
 
  • #710
Gave 2 alternatives why he might have said things were fine. Shock applies to either or both. Suspend your certainty of guilt for a moment and imagine this.

How would YOU react if you thought a burglar was in your house, you grabbed a gun, you shot at what you thought was a burglar then went to check to make sure your friend or husband or whatever was safe....but found silence instead of that person, then, you go back to where you shot and find not a burglar but your friend or husband, bleeding, dying.

You've killed someone. You've killed someone you know and who was just sharing your bed. Crap, I just back from the beach where, driving at night I accidentally ran over a duck. 48 hours later and I still feel guilty and horrible and sad. A DUCK.

But hitting a bird or an animal while you are driving is an accident and something which you have very little control over. Shooting at an unidentified person in a toilet cubicle is not an accident, because you make sure you check first to make 100% sure it's not your partner or other family member (and even if it's not, you still need to fire a warning shot, etc, before shooting an unknown person, who may themselves be unarmed or may even be a child). OP had at least two opportunities (according to his version) to identify who the person in the toilet cubicle was, and it's just a complete nonsense that he wouldn't have done that .. and it's just as ridiculous that he would've automatically thought the noise in the bathroom came from something external as opposed to someone who was already in the bedroom/en-suite bathroom with him, especially if you cannot even open the window from the outside anyway.
 
  • #711
Re: last sentence

It was indeed after a break and much talk on this forum about alcohol being consumed at a party that Roux brought the boat accident up again.LOL

So are you saying they're watching us?
 
  • #712
A pent up dam being released would not give an arterial spurt pattern though, would it?

Once again a convenient combination of three different 'ifs' have to be employed to support OP's story. So her head wound was bleeding into the toilet but miraculously neither her hip or arm wound were bleeding. Then as she was being carried downstairs 15-20 minutes after she actually died somehow the un-kinking of a vessel resulted in something looking like arterial spurt?

I just do not think this is credible.


I respect that you don't find it credible. It is anatomically possible. I don't claim to have a clue as to the position Reeva's body was in when Oscar retrieved her, just that there are many positions she could have been in to restrict blood flow and to have blood building up inside the body.


If her heart pumped for a few minutes after brain death then the kinked artery theory has more validity.
 
  • #713
Great post.
You seem almost certainly to be a medical professional, so let us hear from you often please.

Do you BTW know how long alcohol would stay in the system?
Say somone had a glass or 2 of wine at 8 PM and does not get blood drawn for alcohol till noon the following day. Would it all or most be gone by then?
TIA
On average, the body metabolises one unit of alcohol per hour. So if he had 2 large glasses of wine, that could have been 4 to 5 units, which would have been metabolised around midnight/1 am.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3303805.stm
 
  • #714
I saw her mom interviewed and her mom said this on the interview. I believe her mom. Cant remember about the Mafia part but her mom did say she handed the phone to him and she let him have a piece of her mind and threatened him to not hurt daughter.

She should have left OP right after that.

I will agree that she should have left Oscar right then and there.
 
  • #715
Gee again. Reeva goes to the loo and while there hears the frantic sound of OP running down the hallway on his stumps- which was odd, since he typically would have them on-- and he's screaming get the f out of my house.

If I heard my able bodied hubby yelling those words I would not need to hear the word Intruder to get that an intruder must be in the house. If I were in the loo I would lock it too and stay as quiet as I could.

You would lock the door leaving your husband outside with no where to run?, really?.
 
  • #716
  • #717
I would like to say I find the mocking and guffawing about Oscar doing harm to his attorney or others given the horrific tragedy of Reeva’s death extremely distasteful.

I understand that most of you find me a bit repulsive as you believe I am making excuses for a killer and apparently no amount of explaining my position seems to bridge that communication gap. I can live with that. But I will give it one more go.

I am not defending Oscar's actions I am looking at them soberly through the lens of quantifiable evidence and by my rubric there is still reasonable doubt as to whether or not Oscar willfully with premeditation killed Reeva.
 
  • #718
I'm not going to argue, cos it's bedtime BUT (lol) I think we're just arguing semantics. I'm completely a fan of Prof Saayman, when he said the head wound would have incapacitated her I believe him. He also said her heart was pale from the blood loss remember, that wouldn't have occurred after her heart stopped beating. And, like I said, through work I've seen people die from massive blood loss, I don't need to watch Internet videos of it.

Here is what I "remember," Dr. Saayman said Reeva died almost instantly, within 2-3 last breaths after being shot in the head. I remember too that you are coming along to say that Dr. Saayman meant something different when he said those things. You believe he meant that she stopped breathing after the gunshot to the head, but her heart continued beating for as many minutes as it took for OP to get her out if the WC and down the stairs. And you are basing that off of your personal life experiences. And you are refusing to consider the (lack of) blood pooling evidence. So I will reject your hypothesis and stick with Dr. Saayman's opinion that Reeva died almost instantly, and by "died" he meant she was Clinically Dead: no heart beat, no breathing, no brain function within seconds of receiving the bullet to her brain.
 
  • #719
On average, the body metabolises one unit of alcohol per hour. So if he had 2 large glasses of wine, that could have been 4 to 5 units, which would have been metabolised around midnight/1 am.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3303805.stm

JMO
I have always felt OP drank more alcohol that night which helped make him madder.

I know its not always true but I have seen basically two kinds of people when drinking. The mean drunk and the happy drunk. I suspect OP is more of the mean drunk.

In high school I knew people that would say they wanted to go get drunk and get into a fight. Like that was their plan. They enjoyed it. It was Crazy.
 
  • #720
I will agree that she should have left Oscar right then and there.

Really? I can see that would be sensible but who leaves someone they are smitten and loved up with because they drove to fast?
 
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