Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Karmady]

um, no...

-Dr. Saymaan said she took at most 2-3 breaths after the shot to the head & died shortly thereafter. There is no accurate transcript of his testimony.

-You said earlier the base of her skull was crushed. The picture I saw of Reeva's head injury did not demonstrate that. Maybe you have another reference or source.

-I don't think Dr. Perumal, previously hired by the defense, would lie and say that everyone agreed that Reeva died on the stairs if this were not the case.

-Unfortunately, he may not have realized at the time how much this destroys OP's story.

Reeva's heart was beating when OP walked through the bedroom, no question. She might have been " dead" but her heart was still beating and could have done so for several minutes after the GSW to the head.

There is not point rehashing the many known physiologic principles which would account for the smaller than expected pools of blood in the toilet room, palor of skin, muscles/heart & liver, etc but at NO TIME was internal bleeding put forth as part of the picture, nor did it happen.

Help me. So no significant internal bleeding at all and no significant external bleeding in the toilet room (or anywhere else that I know of unless the bottom of the stairs qualifies), but still, the liver and heart pallor are due to loss of blood? Which loss of blood I don't doubt. But where did it go?

 

[Jake18]

Help me. So no significant internal bleeding at all and no significant external bleeding in the toilet room (or anywhere else that I know of unless the bottom of the stairs qualifies), but still, the liver and heart pallor are due to loss of blood? Which loss of blood I don't doubt. But where did it go?

When I was hunting for the "pale heart" report I waded through loads of journalist summaries, almost all mentioned the head wound, the no breaths and the limb wounds. Prof Saayman's report would have been substantial, I'm not sure that we can surmise that we "know" all the injuries. It seems that the same, dramatic, injuries were rehashed over and over. I'm happy to stop speculating though.

 

[Viper]

um, no...

-Dr. Saymaan said she took at most 2-3 breaths after the shot to the head & died shortly thereafter. There is no accurate transcript of his testimony.

-You said earlier the base of her skull was crushed. The picture I saw of Reeva's head injury did not demonstrate that. Maybe you have another reference or source.

-I don't think Dr. Perumal, previously hired by the defense, would lie and say that everyone agreed that Reeva died on the stairs if this were not the case.

-Unfortunately, he may not have realized at the time how much this destroys OP's story.

Reeva's heart was beating when OP walked through the bedroom, no question. She might have been " dead" but her heart was still beating and could have done so for several minutes after the GSW to the head.

There is not point rehashing the many known physiologic principles which would account for the smaller than expected pools of blood in the toilet room, palor of skin, muscles/heart & liver, etc but at NO TIME was internal bleeding put forth as part of the picture, nor did it happen.

Alright, it is midnight for me and I have a Melatonin and several glasses of Bourbon on board. And I am using a cellphone too, but here goes!

BIB1. No I did not, Dr. Saymaan said it was severely fractured.

BIB2. Would Reggie lie in an interview a year ago to help promote the public appearance of OP being innocent? Yes.

BIB3. You do realize that OP says that he held Reeva in his arms for 5 minutes after running around for many minutes before and breaking down the WC door, right? So how is it that "although she may have been dead" her heart was still beating after all of that time, and without her breathing? And given all of that her arteries were still able to spurt blood? Wow! It boggles the mind, doesn't it!!!

BIB4. Agreed! What utter nonsense that conversation was!

ETA: BIB5. Um, that is what Jake and you said earlier. Sorry.

 

[crasshopper]

Karmlady

Part of the issue is that we don't know where some of her blood went, but it's really not that important. As for the blood still in her vessels, its not getting back to the heart as well without muscle tone, contraction and respiration and suddenly the blood thats left has a lot more places it can go because more channels are wide open.

All the HOV lanes are open, no construction or lanes closed & there's not much traffic...

Don't know if that helps.

 

[steveml]

Are you saying that you believe the police cocked the gun before it was photographed on the rug?

Did Col. van Rensburg elaborate? That is an extraordinary statement, that "he heard the sound of a gun being cocked behind him." Do you know who was behind him? Did he identify OP's gun as the one being cocked?

ETA: Do you know if the magazine was still in the 9mm when it was photographed?

BBM

Nope, I'm not sure what to make of it. All I know is either the photo is not exactly as the gun was found, or Van Rensburg could be mistaken.

'I was speaking on the phone. I heard a gun and when I turned to look he had the firearm in his hand and he was not wearing gloves.'

I agree it was an extraordinary statement.

We know it was the forensics guy that was behind Van Rensburg as Van Rensburg indicates that the forensics guy was not wearing any gloves.

The magazine was allegedly in the gun when it was found.

We know there was only one 9mm Parabellum found at the scene, and in my opinion removing a magazine from a pistol sounds quite different from a gun being cocked.

 

[Viper]

Karmlady

Part of the issue is that we don't know where some of her blood went, but it's really not that important. As for the blood still in her vessels, its not getting back to the heart as well without muscle tone, contraction and respiration and suddenly the blood thats left has a lot more places it can go because more channels are wide open.

All the HOV lanes are open, no constructionor lanes closed & there's not much traffic...

Don't know if that helps.

That sounds like Voodoo medicine to me.

 

[anagrammy]

4 shots fired by accident one handed in the dark by a man on his stumps with poor balance all ended up in close proximity to each other, and people believe him.

I don't believe him.

I think he has the ability to lie very quickly after he has broken the law. Remember the restaurant incident where he had already asked a friend to take the rap and got an agreement before the manager even made it over to the table. Isn't stunned or deafened or confused by an unexpected discharge under the table. When his reputation is at stake, OP is quick thinking and perfectly clear.

For the last week or so I have been marinating on some of the elements of the case which seem "hinky." As we sleuthers know, the truth can be pointed at by telltale slips of the tongue, body language, or just something that doesn't smell right.

These are a few which point in another direction:

The nipple abrasion injury.

The injury at the base of the skull.

Blood spatter downstairs

OP's insistence that the magazine rack was there all along


What if OP pulled off Reeva's clothes to keep her from leaving and she ran downstairs nude?

He chased after her, shooting at her with the pellet gun, hitting her back, and hitting her with the flat side of the cricket bat, both of them yelling and then she started screaming.

He had to shut her up, so he put her into a headlock, face towards his chest while he told her to stop screaming. She struggled as he dragged her upstairs by the head, abrading her right nipple and she's banging at him with her fists. He's right handed, so her left nipple would have been solidly against her chest but her right nipple was rubbing. He has the cricket bat in his left hand.

She escapes and runs upstairs towards the bedroom to lock herself in and call the police. He hits her on the rear with the edge of the cricket bat, inflicting the wound that the pathologist attributed to the magazine rack.

She makes it to the bedroom and locks the door. She hurriedly gets dressed in the quickest thing she can put on, and throws her pants outside to grab later. She can hear Pistorius breaking down the door, and even shooting at it.

When he bursts through, she is standing on the bed and he shouts GET DOWN. She manages to escape from him and take the phones with her into the bathroom.

This is when he decides she must die. He cannot trust her not to tell people what he did. He will be ruined.

He stalks quietly down the hall trying to hear if she is using the phone. He hears the window slide open and hears her going "Hello hello" on the phone. She might escape! She is trying to call someone! And tell people what he's done! He hits the stainless panel in the bathroom and threatens to shoot if she doesn't come out. She screams a blood-curdling scream.

He shoots her once, looks to make sure she's hit, then finishes her off. In cold-blooded calculation, he goes back for his legs, calls Stander, and begins an inventory of his valuables while Reeva is dying.

He has amazing upper body strength. He did not need help picking her up or throwing her over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes. He realized that his hold was disrespectful and adjusted his position to a more caring hold. It was that swinging of her bloody head from back to the front that deposited the blood downstairs. Also the shifting of the body produced more arterial spray. Clearly he wasn't trying to save her by stopping any bleeding with a belt, shoelaces, or any of the many items handy in a bedroom which could have been made into a tourniquet.

I didn't itemize how my scenario matches the evidence/timeline/witnesses because I know that you smarties will make those connections yourself.

Reeva RIP

 

[Jake18]

Alright, it is midnight for me and I have a Melatonin and several glasses of Bourbon on board. And I am using a cellphone too, but here goes!

BIB1. No I did not, Dr. Saymaan said it was severely fractured.

BIB2. Would Reggie lie in an interview a year ago to help promote the public appearance of OP being innocent? Yes.

BIB3. You do realize that OP says that he held Reeva in his arms for 5 minutes after running around for many minutes before and breaking down the WC door, right? So how is it that "although she may have been dead" her heart was still beating after all of that time, and without her breathing? And given all of that her arteries were still able to spurt blood? Wow! It boggles the mind, doesn't it!!!

BIB4. Agreed! What utter nonsense that conversation was!

ETA: BIB5. Um, that is what Jake and you said earlier. Sorry.

Viper, re BIB3 (and I'm on my phone too) I am firmly in the gunshots last camp for that reason. He also said on cross that he saw her breathing which means he was there very quickly. Or could see her through a crack. No time to run hither and thither screaming and shouting off balconies

 

[Karmady]

Karmlady

Part of the issue is that we don't know where some of her blood went, but it's really not that important. As for the blood still in her vessels, its not getting back to the heart as well without muscle tone, contraction and respiration and suddenly the blood thats left has a lot more places it can go because more channels are wide open.

All the HOV lanes are open, no constructionor lanes closed & there's not much traffic...

Don't know if that helps.

are you saying that's different than internal bleeding?

 

[Really?]

This is also interesting -- during Van Staden's cross examination on March 18, the photo below is shown and it is one of Col Motha's photos, but it also shows a left hand pointing. It could not have been Col Motha's hand pointing because the camera grip is on the left side of the camera. Even Van Staden is unable to explain it.

This picture was taken at 6:03 a.m. So that suggests that Van Staden was not alone phtographing an untouched crime scene very early in the process.

Video Link

and.....who evers hand that is pointing....has a watch on !!....who's watch we don't know....I see they (SAP) have moved the magazine rack already. LOL

 

[PPKik]

BBM

Nope, I'm not sure what to make of it. All I know is either the photo is not exactly as the gun was found, or Van Rensburg could be mistaken.

'I was speaking on the phone. I heard a gun and when I turned to look he had the firearm in his hand and he was not wearing gloves.'

I agree it was an extraordinary statement.

We know it was the forensics guy that was behind Van Rensburg as Van Rensburg indicates that the forensics guy was not wearing any gloves.

The magazine was allegedly in the gun when it was found.

We know there was only one 9mm Parabellum found at the scene, and in my opinion removing a magazine from a pistol sounds quite different from a gun being cocked.

BBM

I agree with that!^^

Was there only one forensics guy who was not wearing any gloves, only one? Do you know who it was and did he testify?

Sorry if this has been asked before. This is the first time I've read anything about a crime scene or forensics person cocking OP's Parabellum. If this is true, that alone is beyond mindbogglingly inept and would seem to be serious evidence tampering.

 

[Val1]

And what's your point? Does that mean that the police investigators should not try to preserve the crime scene as they find it?

bbm - Of courses they should, but I don't think anyone can expect any crime scene to be perfect, especially when it's already been(quite possibly deliberately) mucked up by the suspect.

Anyway, like I said, family is calling, ttyl.:seeya:

 

[Ncl1968]

Steenkamp's friends believed Pistorius was trying to find out if she had been in contact with her ex-boyfriend, Warren Lahoud. Just 36 hours before she was shot, she met Lahoud for coffee.

"She told me how well she was doing," Lahoud later said. "She seemed happy."

 

[crasshopper]

Alright, it is midnight for me and I have a Melatonin and several glasses of Bourbon on board. And I am using a cellphone too, but here goes!

BIB1. No I did not, Dr. Saymaan said it was severely fractured.

BIB2. Would Reggie lie in an interview a year ago to help promote the public appearance of OP being innocent? Yes.

BIB3. You do realize that OP says that he held Reeva in his arms for 5 minutes after running around for many minutes before and breaking down the WC door, right? So how is it that "although she may have been dead" her heart was still beating after all of that time, and without her breathing? And given all of that her arteries were still able to spurt blood? Wow! It boggles the mind, doesn't it!!!

BIB4. Agreed! What utter nonsense that conversation was!

Aw, enjoy the bourbon, I could have used some I was certainly tired so I'm sorry and thank you. Great points to consider.

Honestly, it doesn't boggle the mind if you throw out everything OP tells you! He is omitting way too much. The only truth is that he yelled at Reeva to get the F out of his house and that 3 bullets from his magical gun pierced her with fatal results. If the shots that killed Reeva were later than he claims everything fits.

If the gunshots were actually closer to 3-3:05 its more problematc but again could work. If her cerebellum was destroyed by the exploding bullet, some of her brainstem could have been spared allowing a continued heartbeat and the skull base could be fractured.

Gabby Gifford had horrible intracranial damage, but because it was mostly supracortical she did much better than ever expected.

I'd love to continue this I just wanted to post it before you go to bed.

 

[crasshopper]

are you saying that's different than internal bleeding?

Very much so!

 

[Jake18]

are you saying that's different than internal bleeding?

Third spacing.

 

[lisasalinger]

Alright, it is midnight for me and I have a Melatonin and several glasses of Bourbon on board. And I am using a cellphone too, but here goes!

Snipped

:cheers: :dance: :toastred: :toast: :tipsy:

 

[crasshopper]

I have to defend myself. Heartbeat alone doesn't mean alive...

Sheesh who do you think they get hearts for transplant patients from?

 

[crasshopper]

Alright, it is midnight for me and I have a Melatonin and several glasses of Bourbon on board.

ETA: BIB5. Um, that is what Jake and you said earlier. Sorry.

I never said it, not once.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Good morning all. It is 08.14 in the morning, CT, Western Cape; South Africa.

Shane13 - this is for you. :drumroll: (I can't keep up with the threads and the pace at which they move - apologies, I have had a hectic start to the working 'mini week' and I am struggling to work back through all the posts.

RE: the phone and scene.

Firstly, as you know, I do believe the phone was removed from the scene by an 'Oscar' friendly. I do not believe it was Brig (Prof) Labuschagne. His presence at the scene was (I believe) on personal request, by Micki P. I do not believe the Prof attended the scene with much clue as to what had 'gone down', but rather as a favor to a former colleague (and mentor of sorts).
This is not as uncommon as what it may appear to be. My husband has requested the presence of a specific officer (friend) to assist me when a screeching lunatic drove into me. I realize this is a little different in terms of 'seriousness', but here in SA, if you know someone, you ask for assistance. (Especially amongst those with 'public profiles' - and no, I'm not included in that segment of the population :blushing
This is what I believe Labuschagne was doing there. At this stage, as is common procedure when a person is killed at the hand of another, the 'suspect' is arrested on charges of murder - it always starts with murder. Remembering that at this stage, information was scarce and all Oscar had said was that he 'thought Reeva was an intruder'. Oscar gave no further statements to the police at all, with Clarice Stander running 'PRO and communication' by all accounts. For policeman such as Labuschagne, the TRUE nature of the killing would only become evident much later.
I have great regard for the man's work, and I don't believe Gerrie Nel would re-open the state's case and allow him to present as an expert if he wasn't 100% certain of said expert's integrity in this regard. If there is any question, I have no doubt Major Bronwyn Stollarz will do the necessary (she has been in court).
If I am proven wrong here, I will be 'gutted'.

However, that there were 1 or 2 other 'Oscar friendly' policemen on the scene and involved with the integrity thereof with 'less than noble intentions' is NOT beyond the realms of probability. Botha was NOT one of those - funny as it may seem, I do believe the man approached the scene incorrectly, BUT without malice. I believe he was guilty of 'attending the scene expecting it to be a simple LEGITIMATE kill' as per Oscar's 'I thought she was an intruder'. In the hours that followed on the scene, it became clear to him and others, all was not as it had initially seemed to be. They were negligent, nothing more. (Botha and Oscar did have a history though, as I have mentioned before, resulting in Oscar instituting a civil claim for 'False arrest' in 2008)

In fact, most of the policemen involved with the scene were guilty of nothing more than 'believing the initial story re: events'. Only my opinion of course.

Now: Oscar would have told 'someone' on that scene about the importance of the phone, of that I have no doubt. The only person I believe would have had the 'capacity and capability' to remove anything from that scene with help from a 'friendly' would be someone with authority (real or suggested). I do not point simply at a police official here, I believe a civilian was involved - a civilian who would have had the necessary 'bulk and pull' to wander around.

I believe the relevance of the phone would be 'message' related and NOT call related. I say this because the police had already received a print out from the service provider, Vodafone (from them directly) listing ALL calls made. In fact, it was these print outs that alluded the police to the fact that there WAS in fact a 2nd phone. The police had obtained a court order for records on the number of the phone they had in their possession. Vodafone then sent them TWO sets of records for TWO different numbers. It was only here the police realized the existence of phone No 2. For the call records to have specifically been altered, would also mean a conspiracy involving Vodafone, as they would have had to be involved. Calls registering at specific towers would have to be erased - that is some serious inside help from Vodafone then? This to me is improbable, simply because a conspiracy usually fails when 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th parties become involved.

But; even though the service provided; Vodafone (Vodacom) record data usage, the actual messages/content etc is held by the servers of the specific app/product/website being accessed with said data. It is THIS information which can be deleted/cleared from a phone's history.

By the time the police received the phone, there would be no record of reference for them to check. I.e: If Oscar had sent messages via a 3rd party app, there would be no record of this. In other words, bar the phone calls registered and sms's specific messages recorded by Vodafone (towers) there would be no record of activity with regard to ANY 3rd party activity - websites/chat apps etc. All deleted, along with the history on the various 3rd party sites/apps.

For example: I spoke to a friend who owns and runs an 'Over 18' chat sites/dating sites and he stated that messages sent between users are kept for 10 days, due to storage capabilities on servers. Those messages for example are only stored with the 3rd party. I am not sure what an organisation like 'Whats App' storage capabilities would be.

I'm no expert here, but I do believe the phone held some sort of evidence relating to further motive - even if this was recorded in activity up to 7-10 days before the incident itself.

Oscar was a powerful figure in SA, with many wanting to bathe in the light of his success. 'Starf***rs love him'. However, I don't believe there was a concerted 'state driven' attempt to put a spanner in the works of later proceedings. If this were true, I believe it would have been 'squashed' on the day, and the charges withdrawn very early. The fact that it entered the criminal justice system at all, tells me the 'state' were serious from the get go. When they appointed Gerrie Nel, it was almost clear that they wanted something out of this. Others might be 'dodgy', but in this man (even though he is human with faults and by no means perfect) you have someone for who there is NO grey area. When he was falsely arrested in an attempt to derail the Jackie Selebi prosecution (and Jackie Selebi was FAR MORE POWERFUL than Oscar could dream to be) he spent his night in the police cells and went straight to work after the charges against him were withdrawn.
I believe in the inherent sense of justice Gerrie seems to carry within him.

I understand the direction from which you are coming COMPLETELY, and there is certainly a ring of truth with regard to certain elements you mention. I am also a little perturbed that the only mention of the phone we have on court record is the defence admitting that they only handed the phone in 16 days after the incident. Perhaps Gerrie didn't want to chase it further in protecting his case - which fortunately, does not only rest on phone records, but on a woman screaming with a stomach full of vegetables before being shot.

What I haven't had time to do yet, is revisit Col van Rensburg's testimony. I have a feeling I have missed something there in terms of the integrity of the scene and folk wandering around aimlessly.

I applaud your courage in stating what you do. I enjoy your reasoning as well.

I might also perhaps be a little protective of people involved with this case that I 'know' and 'trust' in terms of their work ethic. I will be gutted with a capital 'G' if one of them has feet of clay.

Final thought for this post: Whilst Oscar had a following in high places - the people in these 'high places' would throw him under the bus faster than a tissue, rather than be tainted by their connections to him. This is the South African politicians WAY. No jokes. They would be far more concerned with public opinion and being 'seen' to respect justice than standing by Oscar in ANY way, shape or form.

The NPA will be going all out, and hoping that whatever took place on the actual scene doesn't come back to bite them. This however, was through no fault of their own (The National Prosecuting Authority) as they weren't there.

I have more :scared: but I must get coffee and toast.