Trial Discussion Thread #31

[lisasalinger]

I'd like to know what others believe is the most compelling evidence against Oscar? And has the defence/State made you rethink your position at all, even for a moment? If the defence/State could put forth any evidence at all, what might sway your mind? And lastly, what's the one piece of evidence not explained you want an answer to?
______________________
The State had me at the screams. Now, I have a huge issue with the forensic testimony. I have had a few moments of hesitation in cross with a couple of the crime scene guys - Vermeulen was one. I think the defence could only make me reconsider by providing a logical account for those screams (instead of a man screaming like a woman while yelling like a man while crying and not screaming at all) and why the defence timeline doesn't appear to match the blood spatter and pathology findings. I want something that makes sense to sink my teeth into. And the one item of evidence I want the real story of is the blood in the bedroom.

(Sorry for the length. I look forward to all your thoughts.)

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

The screaming issue is enormous... and precisely the reason that Oscar went WAY overboard on the stand repeatedly saying that he was screaming the entire time he was running around, screaming for the Lord, screaming for Reeva... blah, blah, blah... from the second that the gun went off.

The best was when Nel asks him, how come you didn't scream when you finally actually saw her in the toilet room? And his response was, why would I have screamed then? :facepalm:

 

[minor4th]

Wait has there been evidence (other than his own testimony) on where he was standing in the bathroom when he was shooting? I guess so as u have mentioned the above?

Mangena came up with the same position with his laser beams and trajectory rods. Although I believe Mangena gave a range of something like 60 cm - 2 or 3 meters.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I disagree with that; he could stand right up against the door and peer in and shoot. And why would he need to see anyway? Shooting 4 shots into that tiny area - especially shooting towards their core, which it looks like he was doing (roughly) - is almost certainly going to kill the person.

I understand what you are saying but I do believe OP knew the dangerous nature of his bullets .One of them ricocheted off one wall and went back to hit the other wall still causing damage to the wall .IIRR
That being the case it is possible that a bullet could ricochet back through the door . Even a tiny air rifle pellet can go through wood .A pellet from my sons very basic rifle went right through our shed and lodged itself quite deep into the wall opposite .

 

[lisasalinger]

Yes I agree they probably have . In any event as long as there are mugs I suppose the side of the bed they are on might still not mean anything definitively because i suppose they could have swapped sides before going to sleep ( if they did which I guess hasn't been proven one way or another )

Not only is there no proof (other than Oscar's word) that they went to sleep that night, there is proof that they didn't.

1. Food in Reeva's stomach

2. Balcony door open, balcony light on

3. Duvet off of the bed

4. GPRS activity late in the night

5. Neighbor heard fighting at 2am+

6. Screams of both a woman and a man, heard by multiple neighbors, at 3am+

 

[Carmelita]

um, no...

-Dr. Saymaan said she took at most 2-3 breaths after the shot to the head & died shortly thereafter. There is no accurate transcript of his testimony.

-You said earlier the base of her skull was crushed. The picture I saw of Reeva's head injury did not demonstrate that. Maybe you have another reference or source.

-I don't think Dr. Perumal, previously hired by the defense, would lie and say that everyone agreed that Reeva died on the stairs if this were not the case.

-Unfortunately, he may not have realized at the time how much this destroys OP's story.

Reeva's heart was beating when OP walked through the bedroom, no question. She might have been " dead" but her heart was still beating and could have done so for several minutes after the GSW to the head.

There is not point rehashing the many known physiologic principles which would account for the smaller than expected pools of blood in the toilet room, palor of skin, muscles/heart & liver, etc but at NO TIME was internal bleeding put forth as part of the picture, nor did it happen.

If that is your working theory and I have no reason to doubt it as I can barely talk about blood let alone look for very long at the graphic pictures, then where is all of Reeva's blood? If Reeva had say 1.3 gallons of blood in her body where did it go?

Is this a plausible theory or just me displaying my ignorance of human anatomy? Is it it possible that Reeva's head wound bled profusely into the toilet and that much of her blood was flushed away, even her broken arm logistically speaking could have bled into the toilet. Probable? No course not, but possible according to the law of physics but I don't know if it is anatomically possible.

Thanks

 

[lisasalinger]

I wish there was somewhere where we could look at the photo's in the order which they were taken and numbered because it does get very confusing when you see pictures like this .was this taken when they were trying to piece the door back together ?
Others I have seen have shown several pieces torn out .

Check out my post #412 from this thread regarding the door.

It is very confusing with all of the photos out there, but hopefully that post will help.

 

[Really?]

But am wondering why it's not been mentioned. If OP had dogs for security and they were kept outside, would have thought Pit Bull himself would want to know why they weren't barking and yet OP so sure there was an intruder. Just another little piece to put in people's mind I would have thought.

I do believe Oldwage brought the dogs up at some point.....LOL

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Not only is there no proof (other than Oscar's word) that they went to sleep that night, there is proof that they didn't.

1. Food in Reeva's stomach

2. Balcony door open, balcony light on

3. Duvet off of the bed

4. GPRS activity late in the night

5. Neighbor heard fighting at 2am+

6. Screams of both a woman and a man, heard by multiple neighbors, at 3am+

Yes I agree . I was seriously shocked when OP corrected the amount of hours between dining and the shooting from 7 to 8 and then also stating that Reeva couldn't have eaten again in his opinion .
Also I do wish we knew what the GPRS activity was ,I am hoping that the judge knows what it was one way or another or that we will hear during closing arguments .

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I do believe Oldwage brought the dogs up at some point.....LOL

Yes and received a "note " from the judge for doing so ( hope that is the right word for it )

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Check out my post #412 from this thread regarding the door.

It is very confusing with all of the photos out there, but hopefully that post will help.

Thanks
I regularly read your blog . It has been very interesting and helpful for reference

 

[sleuth-d-]

Mangena came up with the same position with his laser beams and trajectory rods. Although I believe Mangena gave a range of something like 60 cm - 2 or 3 meters.

60 cm is very close to that door.

 

[Irisha]

I am most impressed with that blog. She has done a fabulous job.

It's the GO TO fact file IMHO.

I was just looking at some of the photos at her blog. While I'm terrible at distances and need new glasses, I was noticing the distance from the balcony to the bathroom. Wouldn't said intruder/s have to really slam the window really HARD for it to be heard all the way through the bathroom, bathroom hallway, hallway/passageway across bedroom to OP ears ( fan on ?? ) Does it just appear a long way away to hear a window slamming? Although I do not believe a intruder could/did get up there without a ladder nor would they slam a window, or run to the bathroom. How many feet, bathroom/toilet (in US toilet room is the bathroom) to balcony?

 

[crasshopper]

BBM

Well since you put it that way, I will help you with your Mom.

Find online [say google image] the PC6 acupuncture point.
it is the point for the vagus nerve, and can possibly immediately correct a vasovagal attack by tapping it [or needling it if you've got those handy.]

Anyway tapping works,.a random tap/beat may be Ok or a waltz beat is even better. (Hard-soft-soft.)

Let me know. And if it helps get your mom to send me some type of message.

And learn some alternative medicine if you have not already.

Thank you, I will keep that in mind if it happens again, we are hoping it was an isolated event!

 

[Giles]

That's what is so aggravating - no matter which perspective I view it, I run into obstacles. I can't make sense of the state's case and at the same time I believe Oscar is not telling the complete truth and is hiding something.

This is exactly how I feel Minor. I have been following your recent posts and I totally agree. OP's version doesn't add up and there is clear and compelling evidence not to believe his version. However, I cannot make sense of the States version either.

 

[lisasalinger]

also:
empty gun holster on the left hand bedside table...
op version' he reached under the bed for the gun.
where under the bed was the gun? on the left hand side? has it ever been said where exactly his gun was 'under the bed'?

was the gun under the bed but not in a holster?

i feel the need to listen to see if op mentions the holster at any point...

According to OP's testimony, when he got home that night around 6:15pm or so and went upstairs to change (and watch ) he put the gun under the left side of the bed up near the "pedestal". He used the word pedestal to describe the bedside table that is attached to the frame of the bed.

It did have a holster on it. Nel was able to establish with OP that the holster was removed and the safety was removed as well (when he retrieved it during the incident.) His gun was one up, holster off and safety off.... but of course, he never had any intention of firing it or hurting anybody.

 

[minor4th]

60 cm is very close to that door.

That's about 2 feet, right? Mangena said that was the minimum distance - which is much farther than the state was claiming (I think they initially said something like 5 inches or so). When Mangena did his laser beams, he set them at the exact position Oscar said he was standing and said Oscar could have been standing there and that the trajectories fit his account.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

According to OP's testimony, when he got home that night around 6:15pm or so and went upstairs to change (and watch ) he put the gun under the left side of the bed up near the "pedestal". He used the word pedestal to describe the bedside table that is attached to the frame of the bed.

It did have a holster on it. Nel was able to establish with OP that the holster was removed and the safety was removed as well. His gun was one up, holster off and safety off.... but of course, he never had any intention of firing it or hurting anybody.

Nooooo he didn't watch it was Reeva whilst in the kitchen doing the cooking .
Obviously being sarcastic here ( sorry ) . It really angers me that he refuses to admit to doing anything wrong EVER .

 

[Giles]

A key issue still for me is how the State are going to explain the first set of noises at 3am. If, as some people here have suggested, these were caused by the cricket bat as OP tried to frighten Reeva who was already locked in the toilet, this would mean she was trapped in there for 15 minutes before he finally shot her. This doesn't seem likely to me.

 

[Really?]

OP gives a bad name to christians! Maybe he got angry that RS wasn't giving out haha but then seems like he can get angry over the most trivial things

That may be the very reason my good Mr. Nel asked OP if Reeva was his first "Christian" girlfriend. moo

 

[BritsKate]

Yes I agree . I was seriously shocked when OP corrected the amount of hours between dining and the shooting from 7 to 8 and then also stating that Reeva couldn't have eaten again in his opinion .
Also I do wish we knew what the GPRS activity was ,I am hoping that the judge knows what it was one way or another or that we will hear during closing arguments .

Oh me too. That was a major hinky meter rising moment. For me, it would have possibly bolstered being able to believe him about not realising she'd gotten out of bed to go to the bedroom. But he was adamant there was no way she could have gone downstairs while he was asleep? Even though it may also have made the gastric emptying testimony work in his favour? And then, I have to start pondering why he's so adamant...

Like...did he already know his pathologist was disputing the gastric emptying testimony so he tailored his testimony? Did Reeva actually know the alarm code at all? Because Oscar certainly didn't know when asked. (And btw, how do you honestly not know that?) Had she locked herself in the bathroom after having been locked in the bedroom - hoping he'd cool off? Or is it just to try to prove they were asleep and not awake fighting?

In the same vein...I have to question why the defence insisting the first bangs were the gunshots when conceding they were at 3:17 better fits the evidence. And then, I have to start pondering why they're so adamant....

ETA: I forgot Botha was before Oscar! That means he'd already heard Botha dispute Saayman's gastric emptying.