Trial Discussion Thread #31

[JuneBug67]

I don't usually engage in wild speculation but one thing I have thought Oscar might be hiding is the full circumstances of when they woke up. He testified he had asked Reeva to close up the room and bring the fans in before she fell asleep (presumably he anticipated falling asleep first? Dunno.) Based on some past behaviour I can imagine Oscar waking up annoyed at her and being snarky and huffy. This would have made Reeva's silent exit of the room and the kind of wordlessness between them necessary for Oscar's version somewhat more likely.

 

[crasshopper]

On Angular Momentum and Inertia in the matter of Blood Spatter here

One possible explanation for blood spatter after Reeva’s heart may have stopped is the following.

Oscar’s alleged 5 minutes of crying over Reeva is one of the most obvious bits of probable poppycock. JMO.

Oscar in picking up Reeva and carrying her could have quickly observed that when he turned while carrying her, blood flung away from Reeva. This is a matter of rotation and angular momentum with a quick stop or inertial brake just after the quick partial turn. The rapid turn could be only a small part of a circle. Oscar probably has done this a million times for stretch. And the blood flying off, need not come out of blood vessels. It could have come off her clothing. The distance blood could be flung needs experimentation. Which Oscar might have immediately done, and which SAPS probably did not.

Oscar could have accidentally observed this effect as he carried her out of the loo/bathroom. He then might have gotten off on fiddling with the crime scene this way. Recall Shane’s schadenfreude/sadism theory. If true, alas he was using Reeva’s own body and clothes to confuse and confound the coming investigation.

Now I am not saying this def. happened or even that it could have happened. While the physics theory is hopefully simple and sound, there are too many variables to know for sure that this did or could have happened. Experiments are needed to see if this effect from clothing or blood vessels is possible shortly after death or while she was dying.

But it might explain how the dead or dying Reeva’s blood was found in certain places. And how difficult it is to make heads or tails of much of the crime scene and where surprisingly blood was found. It also explains the possible resourcefulness and desire to alter the crime scene immediately after the shooting. © and JMO

Shane, your post about the angular momentum is excellent and certainly accounts for some of the "lower to medium" velocity spatter.

I do think that the computer analysis, if done, or an experienced blood spatter analyst can distinguish between that type of cast off and spatter and arterial undulations, and your post does not indicate that you are suggesting the two were confused. IIRC There was more cast off type blood and very limited areas outside the toilet where an arterial pattern was found.

 

[Giles]

I don't usually engage in wild speculation but one thing I have thought Oscar might be hiding is the full circumstances of when they woke up. He testified he had asked Reeva to close up the room and bring the fans in before she fell asleep (presumably he anticipated falling asleep first? Dunno.) Based on some past behaviour I can imagine Oscar waking up annoyed at her and being snarky and huffy. This would have made Reeva's silent exit of the room and the kind of wordlessness between them necessary for Oscar's version somewhat more likely.

Yes, this is an interesting thought.

 

[Carmelita]

I re-post per request earlier.

The Fifth Phone:
The Power of Logic ©Shane13 2013, 2014

First let me say again that this is a form of speculation, and no proof or certainty can be involved by this use of logic. As with a trial you each have to ‘rule’ whether it is likely true within certain bounds.

Follow the steps.

1. Taking evidence from a crime scene is a serious crime itself. It’s punishable by lengthy jail time if caught. Punishable also by disbarment if an atty does it.
2. Whoever took the 5th Phone likely knew that it was a crime with serious jail time a possible result if prosecuted. So why risk it; why take the 5th Phone?
3. Because they had to!
4. Why did they have to?
5. Because it would be worse for them if they did not!
6. What do I mean here? The person or persons who took the 5th phone had already known that they committed a more serious crime, and so faced a more serious charge if they did NOT take the 5th phone which revealed their earlier crime.
7. What could their earlier crime be? Perhaps Oscar called early on and described his assault on Reeva, or maybe she was shot once and there was a long pause. Note a year ago MSM reported a 10-17 minute gap between the 1st and last 3 shots from witnesses. Maybe there was more truth then than now?
8. Oscar may have early on called for advice to someone who then advised him horrifically that he could go to jail for a long time, if there was a living witness. Get it?
9. Anyone (say a sibling or atty) would have to race over there and get the 5th phone because its data records when they were called and possibly even their horrific advice.
10. Those who took the 5th phone had to know that they would likely get away with the crime, because of the deep nature of things.
11. So far borne out by the lack of a criminal charge or even the ordering of an investigation by Pros. and 3 judges.
12. Those in control always think that the public needs a scapegoat so W.O. Hilton Botha—who actually informed the world of crime scene theft a year ago [.38 ammo]—is made the public lapdog so as to divert away from those who took and gave the 5th phone to OIDT—Oscar’s inital defense team. One of whom has remained on with OP’s DT.
13. Once again this is logic and speculation. But now you know why the 5th phone was illegally taken and held for16 days. With—as I have proclaimed—the high probability that its data was altered a year ago. With Pros and judge going along with its data entered into trial, when it should have been disallowed as there is zero chain of custody.
14. The mention/stipulation on commencement of trial by Nel and then Roux, on March 25, and the subsequent excision of the first few minutes of all youtube videos of session 1, shows you how deep and how rotten this one runs. See if any other OP trial day’s Session 1 on youtube starts in mid-testimony of a witness. All others start with everyone standing as the Judge walks in.
15. And now you know why the guilty party had to take the 5th phone from the crime scene! JMO ©2013 Shane13

Are you implying that Nell, the judge, and LE in the position to further prosecute/investigate the phone incident are deep under the duvet with team Oscar and therefore not pursuing further action over the phones removal from the crime scene?

 

[Viper]

Nooooo he didn't watch it was Reeva whilst in the kitchen doing the cooking .
Obviously being sarcastic here ( sorry ) . It really angers me that he refuses to admit to doing anything wrong EVER .

OP didn't watch . I've heard that many dog owners show their dogs videos on their iPads. OP most likely went to take a bath and one of his dogs hit on a site by accident. It's plausible. :smile: Trust me, OP has an excuse for eeeeevery thing.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

This is exactly how I feel Minor. I have been following your recent posts and I totally agree. OP's version doesn't add up and there is clear and compelling evidence not to believe his version. However, I cannot make sense of the States version either.

I am not meaning there is still a smoking gun but it could be that there is one or that the states case has not been fully stated yet . Only evidence submitted .Lots of things could be clarified during closing arguments .
I guess it is like a jigsaw puzzle with some pieces missing at the moment.
From what I have been reading about Nel he never reveals more than he needs to until the end .
On the other hand OP version should fit the facts perfectly as he is defending his right to shoot an innocent unarmed person through a locked door .
Also the picture could still become clear even with some pieces missing because at the end of the day there were only two witnesses and one of them is sadly deseased.

 

[steveml]

It concerned me when Roux indicated that Van Rensburg was giving evidence on behalf of Hilton Botha, to avoid Botha having to testify.

If Van Rensburg wasn't even aware that there was a window in the toilet, I wonder how much of the crime scene he actually observed?

You can click on the link below to see only the relevant section :-

Section Link


Source: Oscar Pistorius Trial: Friday 14 March 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

 

[lisasalinger]

Cant be because the camera grip is on the left and Motha was holding the camera

Do you know for sure what type of camera Motha was using?

Roux challenged Van Staden with that photo, but in fairness to Van Staden, that's not his photo, it's Motha's, so how would Van Staden know about the hand?

It's just trickery on Roux's behalf. I understand why he asked the question, it's not a bad defense tactic, it just didn't negate anything for me personally.

 

[crasshopper]

...

Based on some past behaviour I can imagine Oscar waking up annoyed at her and being snarky and huffy. This would have made Reeva's silent exit of the room and the kind of wordlessness between them necessary for Oscar's version somewhat more likely.

Oh, he was in a "snark" all right

I am now leaning more towards they never went to sleep though.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

OP didn't watch . I've heard that many dog owners show their dogs videos on their iPads. OP most likely went to take a bath and one of his dogs hit on a site by accident. It's plausible. :smile: Trust me, OP has an excuse for eeeeevery thing.

Lol
This is bad but I wouldn't have been surprised if he had actually said that . It would just seem like another child like excuse like the dog ate my homework
It is outrageous that he can reduce such a serious matter into points of laughter but some of his testimony is just that awful . IIRR even people in the court laughed when it was said he would provide proof he screams like a woman .
Which despite the longest of pauses to prepare was not anything like a female screaming.
Ps
Sorry again if I am talking too much tonight folks but am currently laid up .

 

[PPKik]

According to OP's testimony, when he got home that night around 6:15pm or so and went upstairs to change (and watch ) he put the gun under the left side of the bed up near the "pedestal". He used the word pedestal to describe the bedside table that is attached to the frame of the bed.

It did have a holster on it. Nel was able to establish with OP that the holster was removed and the safety was removed as well (when he retrieved it during the incident.) His gun was one up, holster off and safety off.... but of course, he never had any intention of firing it or hurting anybody.

Do you know how it was established what side of the bed OP was sleeping on that night? In other words, is it his narrative only, or was there any evidence or corroboration? TIA

 

[DebinGA]

Re OP's shooting location, the bathroom light (not WC light) was definitely ON according to both Dr. and Mrs. Stipp. By the time he shot, Reeva's screams had roused neighbors to call security, and OP was clear-eyed enough to know shooting in front of the bathroom window in full view of startled neighbors wouldn't be wise.

 

[screecher]

Yes, you're right, he did say that ... but ... I believe there may be something else about Reeva's clothes .. something which has not been brought up in the trial yet (and don't forget, some of the evidence has been submitted directly to the judge .. there may be stuff that she has which we don't know about yet).

No, that's not the point .. about whether it was unusual or not for her to have been wearing shorts and a vest (or whether it was OP's) .. there seems to be (from what I took from that portion of the video I posted) something else they know about Reeva's clothing, something which will provide hard evidence. I've no idea what it is yet, and that guy in the vid wouldn't say what it was, and my guess is that it still hasn't yet come up in the trial (and that it has already been presented to the judge, because it is something which doesn't need to be put to the defence).

I believe so, yes* .. and there were things that were passed directly to the judge, such as one of the WhatsApp messages .. that wasn't read out in court, but was submitted in evidence directly to the judge.


* correction, what I mean is that it isn't provided as evidence in court for the defence to refute .. whether it's made known to the defence beforehand, I've no idea.

It's my understanding the prosecution has to give the defense everything the prosecution intends on using, whereas the defense is able to keep everything they intend to use, up their sleeve.

If so, I guess the clothing reference could be the jeans shown in the photo on the ground below the toilet window, though I'm surprised it wasn't brought up in OP's cross examination when Nel was putting forward his theory that Reeva was leaving.

I also noticed that the only WhatsApp messages that were read out in court came directly from Reeva's phone. OP's phone data was passed to the defence and entered as evidence but the data wasn't specifically analysed in court. I'm guessing this may be because there is no chain of custody for the 0020 phone.

Added: I've watched to the video again and they refer to what she was wearing as being key, so I guess it can't be the jeans.

All BBM

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone), I recall (can't remember from where, sorry), someone, somewhere saying Reeva's top was on backwards. Now, I don't know if this meant back on front, inside out or both.

 

[lisasalinger]

We might yet hear the call. The defense case has only just started.

I have always enjoyed a good Twilight Zone marathon...

 

[jay-jay]

I don't usually engage in wild speculation but one thing I have thought Oscar might be hiding is the full circumstances of when they woke up. He testified he had asked Reeva to close up the room and bring the fans in before she fell asleep (presumably he anticipated falling asleep first? Dunno.) Based on some past behaviour I can imagine Oscar waking up annoyed at her and being snarky and huffy. This would have made Reeva's silent exit of the room and the kind of wordlessness between them necessary for Oscar's version somewhat more likely.

I don't even believe that bit, quite honestly ..

 

[Viper]

Shane, your post about the angular momentum is excellent and certainly accounts for some of the "lower to medium" velocity spatter.

I do think that the computer analysis, if done, or an experienced blood spatter analyst can distinguish between that type of cast off and spatter and arterial undulations, and your post does not indicate that you are suggesting the two were confused. IIRC There was more cast off type blood and very limited areas outside the toilet where an arterial pattern was found.

Ever use the expression, "This is like herding cats...?" That is what this seems like to me. LOL!!!

Quote from the following link:
Defence advocate Barry Roux asked the colonel if it was possible if blood on Pistorius's hands could have spattered onto walls and other surfaces while in motion.

Van der Nest said it was.

Thank you Mr. Roux and Colonel Nest! So if Dr. Saymaan is correct in his determination the Reeva died within seconds of being shot through her brain, then Nest can only be right if the blood spatter on the walls was as he said caused by blood from OPs hands spattering the walls as he ran downstairs the first time, and as he carried Reeva down the second time, and as he ran back up stairs a third time - each time his hands would be bloody.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/analyst-explains-reeva-s-blood-trail-1.1663753#.U1fg5b-9LTr

 

[sleuth-d-]

According to OP's testimony, when he got home that night around 6:15pm or so and went upstairs to change (and watch ) he put the gun under the left side of the bed up near the "pedestal". He used the word pedestal to describe the bedside table that is attached to the frame of the bed.

It did have a holster on it. Nel was able to establish with OP that the holster was removed and the safety was removed as well (when he retrieved it during the incident.) His gun was one up, holster off and safety off.... but of course, he never had any intention of firing it or hurting anybody.

thanks.
so, the movement gets even more difficult to believe:
having walked around the bed... not noticing whether reeva was/wasn't there.
he moved the fans and closed the curtains... not noticing whether reeva was/wasn't there.
op then turned and faffed with the jeans/led... not noticing whether reeva was/wasn't there.
and then walked right back around the bed to the left pedestal area...not noticing whether reeva was/wasn't there.

he really didn't like looking at that bed.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It's my understanding the prosecution has to give the defense everything the prosecution intends on using, whereas the defense is able to keep everything they intend to use, up their sleeve.



All BBM

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone), I recall (can't remember from where, sorry), someone, somewhere saying Reeva's top was on backwards. Now, I don't know if this meant back on front, inside out or both.

I personally thought it looked like it was on back to front but not sure whether it was inside out . I am not sure other people thought that so that it is JMOO
I thought so after looking at the close up picture of the t shirt being held up (on Lisa's blog juror #13) and the post mortem picture of Reeva which I have to say I clicked on accidentally and shut down immediately as I thought it was too upsetting to look at . From the brief glance it seemed very high at the neck compared to the picture of it being held up which showed the front lower .
A lot of people are still wondering about whether there is something more specific about the clothes as it was mentioned at the bail hearing and I think maybe the start of the case as well .

 

[BritsKate]

A key issue still for me is how the State are going to explain the first set of noises at 3am. If, as some people here have suggested, these were caused by the cricket bat as OP tried to frighten Reeva who was already locked in the toilet, this would mean she was trapped in there for 15 minutes before he finally shot her. This doesn't seem likely to me.

I think for this you have to explore what her alternatives were if they were in the heat of an argument.

Oscar was asked if she knew the alarm code to deactivate it. He said he didn't know. The bedroom door was locked and the alarm set - we do not know if she was even able to leave the bedroom. We don't know if she even had access to the key for the bedroom door, let alone the code. So...where was she meant to go? The toilet was the only place she could go to have something between them. A locked door would have provided an illusion of safety...maybe hoping he would calm down or debating whether she should call the police. Maybe even considering whether she could jump from the window if her phone didn't make it in the toilet with her? (Jeans, anyone? Phone on bathroom floor?) Or hoping someone outside might respond?

15 minutes, when someone is raging at you, feels like forever and seconds all at the same time. I really don't think it's that long, but I'm basing that on personal experience. My ex could quite easily go into a rage lasting three times that or longer - and did. Once he broke through a door to get to me, with bare hands. I've no doubt had he had his gun at the time, he wouldn't have bothered to break the door down. That took at least 10 minutes (though I didn't have a stopwatch. And please don't ask why I didn't call police because I just don't know. My BIL, just coming home, tackled him literally just as he was approaching me).

Also...if I'm assuming he was mightily angry and wanted to get to her - to either convince her or intimidate her - I really think if he could have gotten to her by any other means he would have. Breaking the door down wasn't working - or beating on it wasn't having the desired effect of her coming out...she was screaming more loudly...and he had to act. It's also what makes me think he didn't have the key for the toilet.

The thing that bothers me the absolute most in this case...because I believe as I do...is that Reeva knew and her last moments were absolutely petrifying. And all those that love her will spend every moment of every day for the rest of their lives knowing that.

JMO and FWIW

 

[jay-jay]

Do you know how it was established what side of the bed OP was sleeping on that night? In other words, is it his narrative only, or was there any evidence or corroboration? TIA

It's his word only, no actual evidence (other than that he had a bad right shoulder, but that doesn't mean anything because I prefer to sleep on a bad shoulder, rather than leave it free because I find that is actually more painful).